FC vs. FF

[Mike Cohen]

I am new to the world of race cars. I currently have a 911 that I am trying to sell and would like to get into SCCA Formula Racing.
I have been looking at Formula Ford and Formula Continental. The prices for used cars don't seem to be too far apart. Aside from wings, what are the differences between the two: engine type, HP, tires, cost to run, speeds, safety, comparitive lap times, etc. etc.??
Is one car easier to work on than the other?
As a beginner, am I better off starting out in FF? My only experience has been a few DE events in the 911.
I appreciate any and all comments and info. you guys can share. Thanks.

[Scott Gesford]

Go with FC. There are more cars racing in FC than FF. There are more FC's available for sale. The engines are 1.6 liter for the FF, about 105 hp I think? For the FC it's a 2 liter with between 140 and 150 hp. The tires are different sizes but the cost is about the same. The total cost to run the cars are similar, the only added expense would be the wings. Engine rebuilds are similar. The FC is obviously faster. Probably 3-4 seconds a lap at least. Safety - about the same but you can hit harder in the FC because your going faster.

[Matt M.]

If you are talking about regional only racing in the Northeast - Club Ford may be the best bang for the buck!! Cheap to run, spec tires, - the cars have already depreciated so if you maintain it - you can sell it for what you paid... Some people like it so much they stay there for years!! It may be a good level to consider. Especially the first year!!

For an idea on times around Lime Rock - check out this link (will need a PDF reader) - NCF is club ford - check out group 3 and group 5 for NCF FF and FC times
http://www.ner.org/RR/Events/2002/Jun14.PDF

Here is NHIS - check out Group 1 (all NCF) and group 6...
http://www.ner.org/RR/Events/2002/HotStuffRace.PDF

The HP is 15-20 less I think (anyone!!?) - Your only as safe as you think you are (ever).... cost to run - as much as you want!

Club ford also requires you to drive at the correct 5 degree slip angle that the 911's love so much (I used to look out the side window to get around west bend!!)



[size="1"][ October 02, 2002, 08:03 PM: Message edited by: Matt M. ][/size]

[RobLav]

Buy a 92-96 Van Diemen FC - even maybe a 97 if you want to afford it. Engines are more reliable than FF/CF, and they are very competent and technically advanced cars for the money. I started 3 years ago with my 96 (after driving early 911's for years) and never regretted it.
Rob

[Curtis Boggs]

Mike,

I went through the same thing at the start of this season and chose a FF.

I think I made a great move.

FF's slide around more then a car with down force and I think they teach better car control for a new open wheel driver.
Being smooth and keeping in the juce make a bigger difference with a FF.

I'd go with a FF for your first season or two then move up from there, .. I think you'll be faster once you get in a FC.

Just my $0.02 worth

Curtis
Vector FF

[Bullitt]

Mike

As background, I first ran a FF in 1971. Although I rarely race now I've been in FC since 1991. I've also driven Vauxhall Supersports in England. My FF experience includes Lola 202, Crossle 25, Citation ’85, and Swift DB-1. FC experience is in a 1993 VD and a 1998 VD. I’ve driven in the old Canadian Bulova Pro series for FF as well as the American FF series (they still owe me money). And I’ve done 10 races in the USFF2000 series.

Between the two classes, motor costs and rebuild intervals are similar but you need to talk to an engine builder (Jay Ivey, Steve Knapp, Sandy Shamlian[sp?], Jim Justice, etc.) to get an overall view as my view is my experience. FC uses more fuel, but that is negligible in the overall picture. I doubt that motor hp is relevant to any decisions you have to make. Nevertheless, a top FF is around 115hp, FC around 148. There, however, is a lot more to how good a motor is than just maximum power.

Tire costs are similar, component costs (bodywork, suspension, gears, etc.) also are similar. That leaves wings/diffusers as a big cost difference (very big if you harm them). Maintenance costs are similar, in part because the components are so similar, but FF’s generally are easier to work on (we could change gears on my Swift DB-1 in 15-30 minutes – my RF98 FC is more like 45-60+ minutes). Other operating costs like entry fees, motel, food, etc., are identical. Safety is a tough call, but as mentioned in another post, the FC is quicker so you might hit harder.

A FC is harder to set up as you have added the variables of wing settings and somewhat greater sensitivity to shock settings and ride heights. As to actual driving, when both are in the setup window (sweet spot), they are similar in degree of effort/commitment required to extract the best lap. When you miss the setup, the FF is far easier to muscle around at competitive lap times. Regarding lap times, at equal car preparation and driver capability, the FC is much faster – in the range of 2-7 seconds per lap. Depends on what satisfies you more, the lap time on a results sheet or the inner satisfaction achieving the maximum possible from the machine.

Which should you buy is a very difficult question to answer objectively. If you want to go as fast as possible and don’t mind a more complex and demanding machine, go FC. If you can afford it get a new Zetec FF2000 which has even more power than a FC, but for now (soon to change) is somewhat of an orphan in Club Racing. Terrorize the poorly driven FA’s and be ready to be a FC in a year or so (just remember that you lose big if you dispute the same patch of road with an under-driven FA). If your budget says that is too expensive, get a Van Diemen RF98-01 FC – tremendous bargains and can be fitted with a Zetec or Duratec when the “time” comes.

Unfortunately (but maybe not) there is the shadow of the SCCA spec formula car. Regardless of what some of the posts on this subject may appear to say, it makes a lot of sense and is worth considering. The whole process surrounding this car is faulty, but the concept has merit.

Now why not recommend FF, especially when I love them, well it is because this class at the National level is the most unsettled at the moment (neglecting FM) and the cost to benefit/fun/hassle ratio doesn’t look good. Also, you seem to have some race experience so the “progression” argument is not particularly relevant -- actually, I'm not sure if it ever was valid. CFC is an excellent alternative, as already mentioned in another post,if you would be happy at the regional level, or that is all your budget can handle. I had a ball racing non-aero FF’s (I remember doing a triple draft pass between #3-#5, carousel-#12, and #14-#1 with a sensible fellow competitor at Road America).

Most of all take the plunge! Formula Car racing is the best kind of racing for the owner-driver.

Bob Layman

[size="1"][ October 03, 2002, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Bullitt ][/size]

[BrooksHall]

Go with FC even on a regional basis I spend about the same as when I ran FF. The car is faster and more reliable.

[Douglas Kniffin]

I say go Club Ford or Formula Ford for a year or two before Formula Continental. You need to learn what it feels like to have the car move underneath you. Don't worry about the speeds, both are much faster then your Porsche. They both cost the same with the exception of ripping wings off...which will happen lots if you get an FC and try to go fast in it without some basic experience first.

[D.T. Benner]

Douglas is correct. I did the same thing and the non wing FF lets you learn car control better. The problem with starting out in a wing car is theat the downforce masks a lot of mistakes and when you loose it in that high speed corner you spend more $$$$ on parts! Just my2cents. Darrell [img]redface.gif[/img]

[Skunk Butt]

We have had some excellent postings regarding FF or FC purchase.
My recomendation is to try to do an Arrive and Drive Test Day in both a FC or FF cars.

After you have driven both cars you can make the best decision for you.
The money spent on those two test days will go a long way toward the right choice for you.

Nothing better then the feeling of driving an open wheel race car.