WTB Formula Enterprise

[JohnPaul]

After a long time of riding motorcycles, I'm out of roadracing bikes and really excited to get into cars. I've always been a decent shifter kart driver in the past and have been having a really fun time teaching my 3 nephews how to kart this past year, so I think that I'd really like getting into a car. I've decided to get a FE over a DSR or F1000. Now I need to try and find one that I can afford. One good thing is that I'm a serious buyer (for the right car) and not interested in kicking tires or wasting anyones time. Downside is that I might be able to swing an F1000 or DSR but the Formula E's seem alittle more expensive. I have $22-23k (max..really). Am I smoking tires? or does anyone have an FE to sell me that's not twisted into a pretzel? If you do please send me Pics/specs.
Thanks,
JP

[SStadel]

JP, I wish you luck finding a car. It is a great class and they are great cars. I think you're probably about $10K shy of what these cars are going for (and that would probably be bare bones). One of my clients and I were just talking yesterday about car related costs, etc. Something to keep in mind is the longevity of the engine. My original car, which I still have and rent out, is going into its 8th season on the same engine. I took it out and had Enterprises dyno it over the Winter. They discovered that it needed a timing chain, so they replaced that and it dynoed within about 1.5HP of my other engine which was comparable to the top engines at the Runoffs. This engine has had well over 30 race weekends, countless test days and rental lapping days with some 10 different drivers and in 7 years has cost me less than $1000 (timing chain, dyno work, shipping, etc.). The last season I personally drove the car I won the Central Division Championship (2007) with it. I guess my point is that, yes you can buy other cars for less, but in my opinion they will cost you more in the long run. I'm also of the belief that every FE out there is a potential National Champion. That's something that can't be said about many other cars in many other classes.

[Marshall Mauney]

I'm also of the belief that every FE out there is a potential National Champion.

Can we assume that you're talking about FE cars, as opposed to drivers?

I'd echo what Steve said; I doubt you can find a running FE for that sort of price. Low 30s is the bottom end of what I've seen, and some of those didn't have all the current updates you would want to have. Frankly, I thought about selling mine after the tranny went at the Runoffs last year, and I still would have wanted more than you're talking about.

I would also question what sort of F1000 (FB) or DSR you've seen for $20K. I have my doubts that anything at that price point can be competitive. In fact, I would wager that a FE capable of winning the Sprints or Runoffs will cost significantly less than a front-running FB or DSR. Then, as Steve said, look at operating costs - engines alone make a HUGE difference in your annual budget.

Are you looking for something that can be nationally-competitive, or a car to go flog on the track at regionals and track days? Have you thought through your operating budget (I assume you have, since you raced bikes)?

[JohnPaul]

I know I'm pretty low on the cash but that's what I have to work with. As far as the other cars I was looking at they were certainly not nationally competitive cars but definitely very good regional cars from reputable people. Also, i'm completely aware of the maintenance side of the FE, that's exactly why I'm drawn to that class. Thanks for your input, I need as much info as possible please keep them coming. I guess I should just get into another class (or stick with the bikes!)

[Matthew Inge]

Do not rule out renting an FE...

[JohnPaul]

Funny, I just posted a thread in the general discussion area asking about rentals and the costs associated with going that route as opposed to buying right now. Please take a look and let me know what you think. Thanks,
JP

[mousecatcher]

Downside is that I might be able to swing an F1000 or DSR but the Formula E's seem alittle more expensive. I have $22-23k (max..really). Am I smoking tires?

Unfortunately, yes. You're also crazy to think you can get into F1000 or DSR for that budget -- there is no competitive car in those classes that are cheaper than an FE, and the operating costs are higher as well. And since those classes are open, you will be spending quite a bit of time on setup and tweaking this and that. Great classes, but not budget ones.

With a minimal schedule you could expect to spend, at the absolute least, $10k for a few races. Since you must have some operating budget, just save that and you will be able to find a great FE for next year.

Or, you could look at FM. Great class, somewhat older and clunkier cars, but great racing with an operating budget similar to FE.

[Rick Ross]

JP,

You need to seriously consider FM. In my opinion FE is an overall better car (and class), but an FM is within your budget. The operating costs and lap times are very similar to FE. You will not find an FB, DSR, or FE worth owning for anywhere near $23K. Your only realistic options are FM, FF, FC, FV, and F500. Good luck.......

[Bruce Allen FSCCA #82]

Club Formula Ford is a terrific way to start Formula car racing. Get one for $8k. Top notch engine in a clean Crossle, $12k Wings look cool but your learn more about driving without them.

This time i am serious. Racers with fenders are wussies.

[JohnPaul]

I also have a 2006 Fourwinds Funmmover 35C, it has 25k miles and is in absolutely perfect condition. Kodiak truck (not van) Fully loaded with a 10'X8' garage, sleeps 8, fully kitchen/bathroom with shower, outdoor entertainment, outdoor shower, Electric lift gate to load garage (1600 lb capacity). TV/DVD, it's worth at least $70k. I have the title in my hand and willing to trade for car and cash equal to $50-55k. see pictures.

You can tow anything with this beast!!

[Blacksport350]

Like others have said, you will not find an FE within about $10K of your budget and a nice one with all the bits you would want and a good data system is going to cost you even more.

You should be able to get a VERY nice FM within your budget though and that is the route that I would go. They are fast reliable cars and I know plenty of people that operate them on minimal budgets compared to other classes.

[Rick Ross]

For some reason FM's just get no respect around here.....

They are cheap, simple, tough, fast cars that are fun to drive. Cost less to run than anything except maybe an FV or F500. That said, FM's are perhaps a little fast for an entry-level driver....the learning curve will be steep, but at least the parts costs are reasonable. IMO, the best choices for newbies are SRF, FV, or FF.

[cooleyjb]

FWIW he's bought a car since this thread was started.

[Blacksport350]

FWIW he's bought a car since this thread was started.

What did he buy?

[Rick Ross]

FB.

[Blacksport350]

FB.

I hope he upped his budgets as he will run out of $$$$ quickly with an FB if he was already struggling with $23K.

[JohnPaul]

I hope he upped his budgets as he will run out of $$$$ quickly with an FB if he was already struggling with $23K.

Actually I got a great car for the money. I decided to go with FB because it'll be less $$ to run than an FE plus I have a few good local guys that run FB that I'll be racing with. What make you think I'm struggling or going to run out of money? The money I had was my budget to buy a car not my life's savings....?? hello

[Marshall Mauney]

I decided to go with FB because it'll be less $$ to run than an FE

?????

Where did you get that impression?

[RussMcB]

I think FE is cheaper to run, but he bought a car for (I'm guessing) a little over half the price of an FE.

[Blacksport350]

Actually I got a great car for the money. I decided to go with FB because it'll be less $$ to run than an FE plus I have a few good local guys that run FB that I'll be racing with. What make you think I'm struggling or going to run out of money? The money I had was my budget to buy a car not my life's savings....?? hello

Sorry, but you were VERY explicit about sticking to your budget so that would lead one to believe that funds for racing were limited to some degree. We all wanted to see that you got into the car best for you and your budget so you could enjoy it.

As to an FB being cheaper to run then an FE, I will believe it when I see it. It is possible if you are REALLY lucky but is highly unlikely.

In any event, congrats on the new car! You will love the power and speed of your FB.

BTW, What chassis did you buy?

[RussMcB]

<snip>

BTW, What chassis did you buy?

Elan DP04. See these threads:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38891

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40269

[JohnPaul]

Sorry, but you were VERY explicit about sticking to your budget so that would lead one to believe that funds for racing were limited to some degree. We all wanted to see that you got into the car best for you and your budget so you could enjoy it.

As to an FB being cheaper to run then an FE, I will believe it when I see it. It is possible if you are REALLY lucky but is highly unlikely.

In any event, congrats on the new car! You will love the power and speed of your FB.

BTW, What chassis did you buy?

no apology necessary, I really had to stick to my budget for a car so I would have enough money to buy all the gear and be able to run the car without being strapped. One of the first things I learned from a bunch of guys on this site is don't blow your load $$ on a car and not have operating money, so that was my plan (believe me there were a bunch or awesome cars I wanted to buy but didn't, I had to restrain myself) I looked high and low and almost bought a few different cars before I felt that the car I bought was my best choice.
As far the question of FB being cheaper than FE to run: The car I purchased is an 2007 Elan VD DP-04 ($20k) which is a FE car from the roll forward, It is a competitive car in the FB class. I can purchase most parts from the local Enterprise rep and as far as engine I just bought a 07-08 GSXR engine with very low miles for $1600, and as long as you have oil pressure and don't over rev the engine it'll last long enough, and if not, you can just swap it out for another $1200-1800. So do the math, I think that it'll be alot cheaper for me, especially since I can do any engine work I need myself and not have to send it out to enterprise which I hear is pretty expensive. What does it cost to do an engine rebuild with, labor to pull it in/out and shipping etc?
So that was my logic, is there something I'm missing? what would make FB more expensive? Sure you can have new chassis and aerodynamics that come out but the engines have to be stock and the guys winning all the races the last 2 years have in chassis' 10 years old.
Ive linked up with a few good local guys that run FB and have been helping me way more than I could have ever imagined. I'm really lucky to have met them. The FB family of drivers are great.
This is not a slight on the FE cars, I really think it is a great class and probably what I would have picked if not an FB.

JP

[Rick Ross]

FE and FB are both great classes. The purchase price of your FB may have been low, but the direct operating cost per mile will be lower for the FE. The FE engines last several thousand miles, and you do not have to worry about constantly upgrading shocks, aero, differentials, dry sumps, ECU's, etc., etc.

The bottom line is that we all do this for fun....so you should purchase the car that you will most enjoy owning and driving. If low operating costs were your goal, you should be in an FV, F500, or FM. On the other hand, I currently own an FA, but I spend less per year than many FE, FC, or FB drivers. The reason is that I only do 3 or 4 races per year, and do all my own maintenance and engineering. Just pick the best class for you and enjoy yourself.

That said, anyone who buys an FB as their first race car is definitely diving into the deep end. Please take your time getting up to speed, and be careful. These cars are fast, and they will bite hard if their limits are exceeded. And please, please do plenty of Regional races before showing up at your first National.

[Marshall Mauney]

As far the question of FB being cheaper than FE to run: [...]
So that was my logic, is there something I'm missing? what would make FB more expensive?

> Tires
> Springs (buying enough different sets to get the chassis tuned)
> Shocks (competitive, not just operable, and think about rebuilds)
> A competitive engine (not just one that runs). How much does George Dean charge for a full race prep?
> Tweak-of-the-month

Your numbers sound like the proverbial $12K Spec Miata. Can you buy a $12k Miata and race it? Sure. Will it be competitive? Not even close.

FWIW, I just replaced my FE engine (got the call from the CSR today that it's on the way back from Enterprises), and it's not nearly as much as you might think, given the expected lifespan. PM me if you want to know the numbers, but I can tell you that it's a lot less than a new national-level FF or FC mill, and less than what I've heard front-running DSR motors run (which are effectively the same as FBs).

You'll certainly have fun with your FB - all of these cars are a flat-out blast to drive. I expect, however, that you still have a few surprises in front of you in terms of the difference between the cost to be on track and the cost to run up front.

[RussMcB]

One little correction: FB engines are VERY different from DSR's. You can do a LOT to a DSR engine, but nothing at all to the inside of an FB engine.

[JohnPaul]

> Tires
> Springs (buying enough different sets to get the chassis tuned)
> Shocks (competitive, not just operable, and think about rebuilds)
> A competitive engine (not just one that runs). How much does George Dean charge for a full race prep?
> Tweak-of-the-month

Your numbers sound like the proverbial $12K Spec Miata. Can you buy a $12k Miata and race it? Sure. Will it be competitive? Not even close.

FWIW, I just replaced my FE engine (got the call from the CSR today that it's on the way back from Enterprises), and it's not nearly as much as you might think, given the expected lifespan. PM me if you want to know the numbers, but I can tell you that it's a lot less than a new national-level FF or FC mill, and less than what I've heard front-running DSR motors run (which are effectively the same as FBs).

You'll certainly have fun with your FB - all of these cars are a flat-out blast to drive. I expect, however, that you still have a few surprises in front of you in terms of the difference between the cost to be on track and the cost to run up front.

Marshall: you raise good questions, many of the same I had when researching. This is what I've discovered:

-Tires: what's the difference between in $$ between what an FE uses and a typical FB (I don't know)

-Springs: Glenn Cooper won the national championship and he told me he didn't touch his shocks in years, when he finally sent them in for rebuild they couldn't understand how he was able to drive the car.

-Shocks: Most front runners are using reasonably priced triple or double adjustable Ohlins or Penske. I have top of the line Dynamics and won't ever need to upgrade.

-Engine: It has to be a Stock engine (unlike DSR's) so even if George Dean "does his magic" it's only a refresher/blue print that doesn't cost much $$$$ (you can get an upgrade wiring harness, flashed ECU and refresher/blueprint for $1500), no where near a competitive DSR. And again, there are many race winners in FB that have complete stockers

-Tweak of th Month: most of the top running guys aren't running any "tweak of the months" components. ie: flatshift systems, paddle shifters, dry sumps etc. , seems like most "tweaks of the month" are too unreliable and most front runners people stick with simple/basic reliability.

I'm not trying to be a "smart ass" I just had most of the same questions and concerns, except the tire thing just slipped my mind, I just thought that most people used the bias ply hoosiers and they were the same $$ (newbie mistake, I guess).
Definately PM me what you paid for the rebuild because I heard some prices that really made me reconsider an FE.

[RussMcB]

Personally, I think one of the biggest disadvantages of FB compared to FE is the wide variety of performance depending on your budget. If you compare a poor FE racer to a millionaire FE racer, it's still very possible for the poor FE racer to do well. In FB there are big choices in chassis and engines, and the expectation is that stock motorcycle engines will continue to gain HP each year. That's not even considering that someone may show up with an exotic (or even mere BMW) motorcycle engine that's much more powerful than the norm. That means someone with a very good FB engine in 2010 may be down on power compared to others in a year or two. Hard to win a national championship against someone with 10 more HP.

if you do well and win in FE, you know it's because of skill, not money.

I have heard that FE racers are very weird people with bizarre traits, but I dunno. I usually cross the street if I see one coming. :-).

[JohnPaul]

Personally, I think one of the biggest disadvantages of FB compared to FE is the wide variety of performance depending on your budget. If you compare a poor FE racer to a millionaire FE racer, it's still very possible for the poor FE racer to do well. In FB there are big choices in chassis and engines, and the expectation is that stock motorcycle engines will continue to gain HP each year. That's not even considering that someone may show up with an exotic (or even mere BMW) motorcycle engine that's much more powerful than the norm. That means someone with a very good FB engine in 2010 may be down on power compared to others in a year or two. Hard to win a national championship against someone with 10 more HP.

if you do well and win in FE, you know it's because of skill, not money.

I have heard that FE racers are very weird people with bizarre traits, but I dunno. I usually cross the street if I see one coming. :-).

I think that FB is the best of both worlds: Not as crazy as DSR but not as restrictive as FE. That's what I really liked about the FB. And the "newest, latest technology" cars aren't necessarily winning, you have people on older, "less" advanced cars winning more races. I don't know, as a outsider looking in, it's a very unique class.
But Russ, yes, engines can be an advantage but they need to be stock so that kind of keeps an even playing field (maybe not compared to the older engines), but the BMW is a different animal (we've beat this horse dead), it's much more powerful than anything else out there and will be a major advantage (if he can drive) on the track, atleast that is if someone can get it in a car and harness it's "power"
One thing I know for sure, you can get a TOP OF THE LINE car capable of running up front for what you'd pay for an FE.

[Wren]

-Tires: what's the difference between in $$ between what an FE uses and a typical FB (I don't know)

FE tires are cheaper and last longer. FB, FC, FA, and FF all spend a lot of money on tires. It is the single biggest expense of racing.

-Springs: Glenn Cooper won the national championship and he told me he didn't touch his shocks in years, when he finally sent them in for rebuild they couldn't understand how he was able to drive the car.

-Shocks: Most front runners are using reasonably priced triple or double adjustable Ohlins or Penske. I have top of the line Dynamics and won't ever need to upgrade.

Brandon carries a lot of different springs in the trailer and spends a lot of time thinking about it. I've seen shock dynos in trailers (not in FB, but it will happen). It's complicated.

-Engine: It has to be a Stock engine (unlike DSR's) so even if George Dean "does his magic" it's only a refresher/blue print that doesn't cost much $$$$ (you can get an upgrade wiring harness, flashed ECU and refresher/blueprint for $1500), no where near a competitive DSR. And again, there are many race winners in FB that have complete stockers

I agree, the engine rules are a winner.

-Tweak of th Month: most of the top running guys aren't running any "tweak of the months" components. ie: flatshift systems, paddle shifters, dry sumps etc. , seems like most "tweaks of the month" are too unreliable and most front runners people stick with simple/basic reliability.

My conservative estimate is that someone who is serious about FB racing should spend their every waking moment working out how to make their car better. If you can figure out how to do it through lucid dreaming, that would be an effective use of time. My girlfriend understands where she falls in the scheme of things. She and I both have a 3 day weekend this weekend. I'm headed to Tuscaloosa immediately after work on Thursday to make parts with Brandon. My roommate is a car guy and he thinks we suffer from some form of mental illness.

This applies to other classes also, but the rules are a little bit more open in FB.


These care are also just outrageous in terms of performance. Brandon has offered his car to me lots of times to keep my license going while I build a new car. I bought an FC instead. I've got no business in one of these cars.