FF Tire Rule Proposal Update

[TimW]

I have a slightly different perspective Steve. I wholeheartedly agree we should not have another spec formula nor should FF become a spec class. However, I do think the concept of a spec tire for FF would be a good thing. While we don't have sealed engines, the Kent is essentially very narrowly controlled and is pretty close to a spec anything in FF (Honda notwithstanding). its not really a formula (you can change wheelbase in a formula, you can't change displacement or rotating mass of a Kent in our 'engine formula').

However, while I think spec tires is best for most forms of racing and perhaps in concept for FF, my opinion is its not really feasible or beneficial for FF to have a spec tire, simply because its not practical. The most effective means to control tire costs is the limit the number of sets you can use. This limit then dictates the life required of the tire. In CART it was 7 sets per weekend, in F2000CS its 6 tires per weekend. In FF, if our goal is to use fewer than 1 set per weekend there is really no way to control where someone runs and how many times they were used before you go to your next set. So if the goal is to keep it to 1 set per weekend, thats essentially where we are now. No net gain except for we're going slower and swallowing 2 stroke oil fumes.

If we have a 'qualify on what you race' rule this actually ends up more expensive for drivers like me who can either due to being a bit off the pointiest end or because my car doesn't consume tires I can get 2 sets over 3 weekends. I can manage my tires such that on any given weekend I can race on the 1st or 2nd heat cycle and have at least one qualifying session per weekend on 1st or 2nd heat cycle. I have never felt under-tired with my tire rotation. Yes, the qual/race rule does prevent people who buy two sets of tires a weekend, but lets be realistic, who is doing it and how often? The runoffs? Maybe the top 4 or 5 of 24 cars at the sprints? Seems like a small problem in the grand scheme.

I lived in CART both during the 'spec' tire era and the Firestone/Goodyear tire war in the mid 90s. The Tire war was not fun...its really hard to sit and watch yourself fall to the back of the order because their tire didn't work that weekend. The spec tire averted the tire war, but in reality we don't have a tire war in FF. The GY & HS are pretty equal. Different, requiring a differing setup, but once optimized not really one advantaged over the other.

I do think that tires should be as controlled as the engine is; in CART, we broke track records when Goodyear brought a good tire or the field was slow when they misjudged. But it applied to the whole field. When we went tire testing with Goodyear (3 day test) we had the first day to get our car balanced. We spend a whole day with wings, rake, ride height, dampers etc to get within about 0.3s of the track record. The next two days we ran test tires and occasionally returned to the 'controls.' We were not allowed to adjust any setting on the car. We went from 2 seconds under the track record to 3 seconds over it on new sets of tires on each run. We essentially went as fast as Goodyear wanted us to go. Something that has that much performance influence should be closely controlled and perhaps even spec'd as close as the engine when its practical. But only leave the 'formula' aspects to the fine tune knobs on the car. However, in club racing I just don't see it manageable or beneficial over the haphazard schedule we can all attend races at if it just gets us to 1 set per weekend.

[nulrich]

Interestingly a "spec tire" that is working well is the Hoosier in the F2000 series. But there the rules restrict you to 6 tires for 2 races and 2 qualifying sessions. This makes tire management an issue.

Spec tires work well in the F2000 pro series. However, the current Hoosier is a radial tire, and a bit quirky, and has very different characteristics than the Hoosier bias ply "club" tires. None of the current chassis work particularly well with these tires, but (for now) everyone has the same disadvantage, so it isn't really a problem.

Drivers report that they are much harder to use effectively than the bias ply club tires, and give less feedback at the limit. That isn't necessarily a bad thing for a pro series since it rewards and develops driver skill.

The six tire rule is one of the best parts of the F2000 pro series, in my opinion, since it rewards good driving and setup while controlling costs. It also gives an advantage to those drivers that can put down a good time in just a couple of laps in qualifying.

And, of course, Hoosier gives great support to the series, and the tires never seem to be a problem.

I don't like spec classes on general principle, so I'm a bit conflicted about spec tires and engines. I understand the reasoning, it does seem to control cost (or transfer cost to some other part of the car), and it's definitely better than spec everything!

Nathan

[John Robinson II]

Does anybody from the F-SR committee or the CRB know what the recommendation was? Perhaps we are all just wasting our breath here and the point is moot because they did not recommend pursuing the proposal but rejected it.

Tom,
I dont know for certain, but have been told by, what I consider to be a pretty reliable source, that there were less letters to the crb then entries for FF at last years runoffs, considerably less. Therefore. because of the small amount of responses, it was determined that the majority is happy with how things are and no action is required.
I, for one, appreciate all the time and effort that you have taken on this subject and hope that you are not discouraged from the process.

John

[sccadsr31]

[FONT=Times New Roman]Tom,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Your very reliable source is correct. As the FSCAR Chair I get to write the recommendation to the CRB that the Committee decides on, sometimes with a vote other times there is no need but we go forward with concurrence and if there is a strong dissenting opinion that goes forward as well. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]In the case of the FF Spec tire proposal the member response was underwhelming, and way short of the number necessary for any conclusion beyond “the rules are adequate as written”.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]A great deal of effort was put into this proposal and not just by the people who proposed it, that is the FSRAC’s responsibility and we were happy and enthusiastic about doing the work along with the other National staff, sometimes it pans out others it does not. By comparison the FV intake manifold has generated a statistically significant sample. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]]Please do not be put off by the result; the efforts put into this are appreciated by many people on both sides of the result.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]An official result will be published, what I just said is unofficial…..[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]Sincerely,[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman]David Arken[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]

[Tom Valet]

Thanks John. A bit discouraged, because I thought based on the feedback I received that there was real interest in the idea, but in a sense I am relieved because if it didnt work out I did not want to be known as that guy who ruined Formula Ford!

PS, I just read Dave's unofficial confirmation. Thanks Dave for confirming what John was told and for your explanation.

[Allen_W]

Thanks John. A bit discouraged, because I thought based on the feedback I received that there was real interest in the idea, but in a sense I am relieved because if it didnt work out I did not want to be known as that guy who ruined Formula Ford!

PS, I just read Dave's unofficial confirmation. Thanks Dave for confirming what John was told and for your explanation.

Tom,

I have been on the "other side" of the tire debate and did not, as you know, want this rule change. But I totally respect the effort you put into this and the way you went about seeking the change. Had it passed, I would have been discouraged . . . but I hope you know that you would not have been seen as a villain. Sometimes people just disagree - and the way you went about this, I think, kept the disagreement cordial and generated useful discussion and debate.

Around the paddock that's what you will be known for!

Best, Allen

[Josh Pitt]

Thanks John. A bit discouraged, because I thought based on the feedback I received that there was real interest in the idea, but in a sense I am relieved because if it didnt work out I did not want to be known as that guy who ruined Formula Ford!

PS, I just read Dave's unofficial confirmation. Thanks Dave for confirming what John was told and for your explanation.

there is no longer a formula ford to ruin, you would have risked being the guy to ruin the new class Formula F.
sorry, it was a slow ball over home plate.........

good effort though tom, i am surprised by the lack of letters recieved from all the dialogue i read here on this site. i thought that it would pass overwhelmingly.
i made my choice a while back since i ran my DB-1 in a vintage group that already had a spec tire rule, and now i race a CFF with that same group.

[Wren]

What was considered a response? Filling out the survey? Or did they want a letter from people? The CRB published no guidance to go along with some random questions in Fastrack.

[sccadsr31]

A response was ANY communication that mentioned FF tires. Also correct there were less responses than entries in 09 Runoffs
David

[John Robinson II]

David,
in comparison, how many letters were recieved for the engine proposal. It amazes me the amount of conversation here, and very few bother to send in letters. I was thinking on the tire issue that by not responding some people were expressing their view, maybe not.
John

Were there more letters for or against the spec tires?

[mblanc]

please see post #13

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39846

[Tom Duncan]

Per FasTrack recieved via email today:

[FONT=ArialMT][FONT=ArialMT]"#260 (Thomas Valet) Proposal for controlled tire in FF. [/FONT][FONT=ArialMT]The response to the March Fastrack questionnaire regarding a controlled tire for FF has been very limited. The F/SR[/FONT]

[FONT=ArialMT]advisory committee has recommended, and the CRB concurs, that no further consideration be given to this proposal. For [/FONT][FONT=ArialMT]those who did respond, thank you for your inputs."[/FONT]

[FONT=ArialMT]Thanks for your effort Tom. I am fighting my own battle here in the San Francisco Region/SCCA for a harder-than-gumball spec tire for FF1 and it's very tough going. [/FONT]

[FONT=ArialMT]Do I spend $12,000 a year on tires or $2000? Do I spend my money on tires or racing? My vote is racing but apparently few are interested in that same decision. [/FONT]

As a related aside, our car counts in FF1 (what we call Formula F) have been cut in half from last year, and most often quoted as the cause is money. Go figure.

I am strongly considering going back to Club Ford. My old car is hanging on the wall in my garage and $420 a set for American Racers that last 2 to 4 races is very appealing.

[FONT=ArialMT]Tom Duncan[/FONT]

[/FONT]

[EYERACE]

Hmmmmm........$ for tires or racing?........in the final analysis it amounts to the same thing. It is simply that the tire part of the racing budget is easily an obvious part of it.

Over twelve years ago Mike VanSteenburg [spelling?] said to a bunch of Phase 1 SCCA students that in five years the vast majority of them would not be racing and that money was the only reason why this would happen.

While it would be nice to do something about this situation.......some classes are not the place to cut every corner possible just to save a buck. Club Ford has made an attempt to that end but there are people there that will still buy tires just to win.

That's life, that's racing.

What's next........a proposal for a total per year spending cap?

[Tom Valet]

Over twelve years ago Mike VanSteenburg [spelling?] said to a bunch of Phase 1 SCCA students that in five years the vast majority of them would not be racing and that money was the only reason why this would happen.

This is the last I will say on this topic, because it is like beating a dead horse at this point. Some guys just dont get it.

If the "vast majority" of new racers will not be racing in five years and money is the "only reason why this would happen," then why in the hell would we not want to pursue avenues to reduce cost? Why would we want to continue to drive people away from the sport by keeping in place rules that unnecessarily increase the cost of racing?

[Bill Valet]

Yes people will throw on new tires in any series in any class that allows. But what is that really gaining them in club ford? 1 tenth? 2 tenths? 3 tenths? So what? You just spent 600 dollars (remember club for tires are MUCH cheaper than FF tires right now) to go maybe 3 tenths faster. I can make that up in a draft. Who cares if you grab the pole. If I can qualify within a half second of you using 15+ heat cycle tires I would be estatic because I know I would be within striking distance during an actual race.

What we have now is tires that drop off significantly after just a few heat cycles. To the point where no race situation will allow you to keep close enough to a guy who goes out and spends 900 bucks on stickers every session (plenty of people do it).

None of us are professional racers here. We're in a club, racing to have fun. If you have fun just going around the track in your car racing against no one thats great (I would), but I find it much more enjoyable to race against more than 4 people. People ask you how you did. You say AWESOME! I finished, 1st, 2nd or whatever. They then ask you how many in the field. Oh only 4. Yea great. Why not reduce the cost of one of the most expensive aspects of racing? Make the class more easily available to a larger pool of people? Take a huge variable out of how to get to the pointy end of the grid. Yes fast people will always be fast, but i bet there are plenty of fast people out there who can't afford new tires every session which relegates them to the midfield.

Take care,

-Bill Valet

[butch deer]

The one best way I know to keep my racing budget in a range I can afford is to wisely choose a car and class that is within my budget before I make the purchase. I have been racing regularly since 1959 and hve been a regular competitor on a teachers salary for many of those years. I did it by choosing cars with class rules I could afford to race in without feeling that I was beat by someone with a bigger budget before I got to the track.
Butch

[Tom Duncan]

Tom, you are exactly correct when you say "...some people just don't get it." No amount of logic, testimony, facts or reason seems to sway these folks, nor can they come up with their own logic, testimony, facts or reason to justify their positions. If this deal could somehow be taken to court the naysayers would be thrown out on their ears.

It is unbelievable to me this idea of a harder compound/longer lasting spec tire is not immediately embraced by anyone who has spent $900 on a set of tires that gave up half way through its first race.

Your point about how the performance gap narrows between cycles with a harder compound tire is the core of the argument for such a tire, and fell on completely deaf ears with my group. Like you said, so what if a new tire is worth a few tenths, even half a second. Good racing by me and a bit of luck will make up for that. That would rely on me driving a bit better than the other guy, so maybe it is understandable that some would not see that as a good thing.

One of the guys out here said he felt the main reason some didn't want such a tire was it would put them into the clutches of well driven Club Ford cars and their ego couldn't handle it. Probably true.

I am tire of being politically correct and patient as a grade school teacher with all this...it is crazy for us to be spending the amount of money on race tires when easy and inexpensive solutions are sitting right in front of us.

The tire companies are laughing all the way to the bank, and must think us amazingly stupid as a group.

Tom Duncan

[Daryl DeArman]

The one best way I know to keep my racing budget in a range I can afford is to wisely choose a car and class that is within my budget before I make the purchase. I have been racing regularly since 1959 and hve been a regular competitor on a teachers salary for many of those years. I did it by choosing cars with class rules I could afford to race in without feeling that I was mbeet by someone with a bigger budget before I got to the track.
Butch

I think most FV racers are in the class for the same reason.

[Daryl DeArman]

But what is that really gaining them in club ford? 1 tenth? 2 tenths? 3 tenths? So what?

Just like ANY class....it is isn't gaining them anything over anybody else doing the same thing.

We can race cars or we can race wallets...

[Bill Valet]

The point is narrow the performance gap between sticker and 10+ heat cycle tires and you won't HAVE to buy a new set with that guy for 3 or 4 races. Let him spend 5 times what you are, you're spending 4 or 5 times less than him to go 3 tenths or so slower. That's still a race. What we gave now is a drop off of 1 second or so after 1 race! So you are FORCED to spend 900 bucks every race (at the very least)

bill valet

[dfrazer]

As a new guy getting into FF I have just been pushed into Club Ford due to the nonsensical cost of tires.

I want to do this for fun and a diversion from work and all of a sudden to be competitive I will need to spend a small fortune everytime I start the car.

Too bad for new guys like me.....

Dave

[DanW]

As a new guy getting into FF I have just been pushed into Club Ford due to the nonsensical cost of tires.

I want to do this for fun and a diversion from work and all of a sudden to be competitive I will need to spend a small fortune everytime I start the car.

Too bad for new guys like me.....

Dave

Dave,

Out here in NorCal some of the FF drivers have objected to a hard tire because they don't want to be passed by the hard tire Club Fords! Our FF drivers in SF Regionals run a Goodyear 430 compound that is supposed to be longer lasting than the 160's but they have their limits. National races are open to tire choice.

Some of our CF guys are very quick and are near the pointy end of the grid at every event.

Welcome to Club Ford.

Regards,
Dan Wise

[dfrazer]

So if I buy a newer chasis how many races could I really expect to get on the Goodyear 430's?

Thanks,
Dave

[DanW]

Tom Duncan could give a much better reply on the 430s. He told me they will usually go 6 sessions unless you overheat them. 430's would not be competitive if everyone else is on 160's or hoosier R25s.

Not everyone buys new tires every weekend. Some race on takeoffs. Some buy new and manage them through multiple cyles until they are worn out. There are others far more knowledgeable on tire management than me.

The CF tires - Hoosier R60's and American Racer 133's are a nylon carcass and different construction than the kevlar GY and Hoosier top line tires.

Mike Sauce's advice in the other thread tells the story.

[Tom Duncan]

In the 3+ seasons we (SCCA FF, San Francisco region) have been using the 430 the front runners are getting about 3-4 reasonably competitve cycles and another 2 or 3 to practice on. At some point (usually about the sixth cycle) they fall off a cliff and are undriveable. If your car is severely unbalanced you will get less than that.

The 430 was certainly an improvement over the open tire rule we had previously, where most used 160's and they were toast in the middle of their second cycle (the race). The smart drivers would qualify on 175's or 250's (both no longer made by Goodyear) behind a 160 shod car and wait until about 2/3rds of the way through the race for the 160's to come to them.

As to the differing constructions between CF and FF tires, it just doesn't seem to make any difference in practical terms (whereas the extra money in my pocket makes a BIG difference). So far we have had FF''s on Hoosier R60's and American Racer AR133's and they work just fine.

Contrary to Dan's statement (he is not a FF driver so he may have absorbed the info or opinion a bit incorrectly) lap times have suffered in no way, shape, or form. Lap records currently were all done with 430's. Cold and damp morning races showed the tires to not hold the advantage over the Club Ford tires they do in the dry/warm but were still fine.

You all have made highly cogent arguments for a harder compound spec tire...they are meaningless as they don't address the real reasons that have prevented this no-brainer change to our sport.

The reasons break down for me as follows:

There are those driven by fear of reality: they will have to learn how to be slightly better drivers (dealing with a bit larger slip angle) and they fear being overtaken by Club Ford cars, loosing face.

There are those driven by fear of the unknown and take a 'the sky is falling' stance: "I will never put an (insert hard compound tire name here) on my car...never!" or "my car won't work on (insert)". In ALL cases where I have dealt with this position the person has never actually tried such a tire on their car (nor will any amount of positive testimony from those that have sway them). In ALL cases of those drivers having actually tried a harder compound tire they have stated they were fine, just a tad slower, a bit more hanging the tail out (slip angle) and in most cases no setup changes other than ride height to compensate for different diameters. Ask John Robinson.

And last but not least, there are those with vested interests (tire deals with a manufacturer or dealer) that they will lose if their tire is not selected.

Cogent arguments do not work in this situation, too many people in the above camps. I know, I've tried. I am still surprised that the (significant) appeal to the pockebook held such little sway. Just shows how strong the fears and hidden agendas are.

Tom Duncan

[Tom Duncan]

An interesting side note that goes completley unheralded in regards to a harder compound tire:

The way a hard comound tire works is the rubber is hard enough that the tread never really gets up to its optimum working temperature, so it doesn't get cooked. In most cases the hard compound is designed for a much heavier car. So what happens is a CF might get 150/160 degrees or thereabouts in regular running, about 30-40 degrees under its optimum. A benefit of this (and maybe why newbie CF drivers aren't falling off the road all the time) is when the car gets out of shape (understeer/oversteer) the tire starts to slide, crreating heat, creating more grip, which helps the car stay on the road.

I am sure some of you have experienced or witnessed a good driver on gumballs work the tire to its maximum, but then go over the maximum a bit, only to find the tire goes away big time. Doesn't happen nearly as much with CF tires.

Tom Duncan

[dfrazer]

Who do we talk to to get an FF class created for guys who want a harder compound?

The guys who don't want one can still do thier own thing and the rest of us will race each other.

I would much rather have my skills honed than compensated for by a soft compound tire. If a CF catches me, I just need to learn to drive a little better.

[DanW]

".....Contrary to Dan's statement (he is not a FF driver so he may have absorbed the info or opinion a bit incorrectly) lap times have suffered in no way, shape, or form. Lap records currently were all done with 430's. Cold and damp morning races showed the tires to not hold the advantage over the Club Ford tires they do in the dry/warm but were still fine. " - Tom Duncan

Tom, I must have been misinformed. Thank you for the clarification.

Looking forward to seeing you at Laguna!

Regards,
Dan Wise