Blackhawk Farms Double National #1 - April 30th

[Gokart Mozart]

You got hosed Keith, and I'm not talking about the annual cheerleader's carwash-type of hosing either...

[Colin Marklein]

Well as far as the start.. I was always under the impression the leader (pole sitter) sets the pace.... once the pace car is gone its up to him to lead the pack.

[Tifosi]

Pole sitter is supposed to maintain the pace car speed until he see's green I believe.

[Keith Carter]

It was my understanding that the polesitter is supposed to maintain the speed of the pace car once the pace car leaves the track until the green flag drops.

[Colin Marklein]

What's up with the pulsing throttle? If he is supposed to maintain the pace car speed then YES you got hosed! I was watching the race in T-1 and it seemed like it took the starter a LONG time to throw the flag.. can't see that in the video though.

[Colin Marklein]

Page 45 of the GCR says

"E. If a pace car is used, it will be positioned at the head of the pack,
with emergency lights flashing. When the field is released, the pace
car may begin at a brisk pace, but will be sufficiently slowed before
it pulls off the track to allow orderly grouping of the field. Drivers
may not pass the pace car until it pulls off the track and the pole
car will maintain the speed of the pace car before it pulled off track
until the green flag."

"G. The Starter will start the race by suddenly and continuously waving
the green flag until all cars have passed the start line if the field is:
1. at a constant slow speed;
2. well bunched and in line; and
3. close enough to the Starter that the majority of the drivers can
see the flag.
Racing begins and passing may occur throughout the field when
the green flag is displayed."

[Keith Carter]

So Dave and I are correct then. It's not a big deal to me but I probably would've been more upset if I had actually gotten to race and lost by that amount. Not sure if it would've prevented the contact that Denny and I had if the start was clean, but as the saying goes, "Racing's racing". Looking forward the the Cat!

[Colin Marklein]

Yup, looks like the start should have been waved off.

[Tifosi]

Probably should have been waved off.

[SStadel]

I don't even want to start this discussion, but I don't think Denny would have been close to Keith if the start had been correct. I went to the stewards with every intention of protesting, but after talking to the people that would have benefitted, I decided not to, as did they. The stewards originally had noticed no issue with the start. After viewing Keith's footage, I was told by the Operating Steward that if anybody had protested, action would have been taken.

I guess this is a public warning to the pole sitter. I'll leave it at that.

[TimW]

Same said sunday pole sitter lit up the tires on grid on saturday, sliding out and only nearly missing the row of fords on his left.

[Keith Carter]

No need for this to be a witch hunt. I'm sure if anyone in our race group does it that people won't hesitate to protest if it has a direct effect on points or finishing position.

[Marshall Mauney]

Same said sunday pole sitter lit up the tires on grid on saturday, sliding out and only nearly missing the row of fords on his left.

I wasn't there, so I won't pass judgement one way or the other. However, I will say this about starting from a dead stop on grid: FEs have a very touchy clutch and a relatively tall 1st gear. It is VERY common to stall them when leaving from a dead stop, so lots of us dump the clutch and spin the tires when we start off - myself included. I didn't see the start so I can't say if it was or was not excessive, but a slight spin to get going is pretty normal, IMHO.

[oppermann]

OK. I may have jumped the start a bit. I was struggling keeping throttle control at 15 MPH. the pasecar speed was way to slow. No excuses-I figured they would not throw the green if the jump was too much. I alway thought that was one of the advantages of qualifying the pole-to set the pace. If Keith "got hosed" it was because he was not on pole (Keiths fault) or he was not paying attention (Keiths fault).

Now blaming the pole sitter for an accident that occured between the second place starter and the fifth place starter is just rediculous!!!!!!! If I jumped the start than that would spread out the field effectively making a safer start. If I would have started everyone at 15 MPH we would have had 3 wide into the first corner. And obviously from this discussion a majority of the people I race with are having problems with 2 wide through 1.

Ovbiously, we all make mistakes and I will learn from mine and next time I will start the race in a different way. Maybe next time we will take out half the field. I recommend that the people involved in the accident take a long look in the mirror and stop blaming somebody who was not involved. We all need to be able to pass without contact.

[Keith Carter]

I don't blame you at all for the contact, Dean. There's no telling what would've happened any other way except for what actually happened. It wasn't my intent when I posted the video for everyone to discuss the start. I had done the start as I had believed how I should've proceeded on the front row while maintaining the speed of the pace car after it left the track. I don't have too many starts from the front row so my experience on how to do them without anyone in front of me to regulate my speed is limited. I don't have ill feelings towards you or Dennis. Whether it was the first lap or the last lap I would've felt going 2 wide would've been doable at any point of the race. In FC we would go 2 wide all the time so that's why I thought in FE it wouldn't have been any different. I'll have to proceed with a bit more caution when put in that situation again that's all. It was an unfortunate racing deal that put only me out of the race and I have nothing to show out of the entire weekend. In that way I do feel "hosed" I guess, but whatever. On to the next race!

[Dale Carter]

Just need to ad my 2 cents here. Been watching this for a while and I am sorry this thread took a bad direction. As I stated in another thread, Keith and I had fun this past weekend even with everything that happened. Sure we felt bad that we paid for a double weekend and never completed a race lap but this is racing folks. No one is to blame or at fault for anything that happened. The last thing we want is to destroy friendships that we value. Sorry if anyone was offended by the direction or tone of this thread. It was not our intention. If the start was not waved off or protested then we have a good start, plain and simple. Again that's racing. We accept it. If there is contact going through a turn two wide, again thats racing. Every guy thought they were giving the other guy enough room. It's what we do. I hope we can all sit down in front of the campfire and share some beers at Road America next race. Looking forward to it. See you at the races.
Dale

[mike g.]

Dale and Keith,

No comments on anything else here, except that I also had a bad weekend (drive axle issues) and only ran one lap of the Saturday race.
Talk to Sue Green about a refund on your Sunday race.

Better luck next time,

Mike

[Tifosi]

Just need to ad my 2 cents here. Been watching this for a while and I am sorry this thread took a bad direction. As I stated in another thread, Keith and I had fun this past weekend even with everything that happened. Sure we felt bad that we paid for a double weekend and never completed a race lap but this is racing folks. No one is to blame or at fault for anything that happened. The last thing we want is to destroy friendships that we value. Sorry if anyone was offended by the direction or tone of this thread. It was not our intention. If the start was not waved off or protested then we have a good start, plain and simple. Again that's racing. We accept it. If there is contact going through a turn two wide, again thats racing. Every guy thought they were giving the other guy enough room. It's what we do. I hope we can all sit down in front of the campfire and share some beers at Road America next race. Looking forward to it. See you at the races.
Dale

+1

[Marshall Mauney]

Dale and Keith,

No comments on anything else here, except that I also had a bad weekend (drive axle issues) and only ran one lap of the Saturday race.
Talk to Sue Green about a refund on your Sunday race.

Better luck next time,

Mike

If all of us that didn't make the Sunday event got a refund, I have a feeling it would cost the region a lot......

[Keith Carter]

Marshall, I would think you more than anyone would have a valid reason to get a refund if you haven't already. You didn't even make qualifying on the first day, right?

[Keith Carter]

+1

I also agree. Beer fixes all!

[Brad Ellingson]

I worked a Safety truck for this weekend...actually had a lot of fun and have a new found respect for the orange clad folks. My guess is that had that been an FE only race, the start would have been waved off but, because there was a split start, the green was thrown. My experience has been that, as drivers, we don't deal with wave offs very well and with a split start, that makes it worse.

As far as refunds go, PLEASE consider your entry fee as a donation to the club. The regions took a bath on the driver's school and could probably use the money.

[Northwind]

Refund?

I not sure if it is possible to get a refund the way the schedule was made for this double event. It had one practice session that was to be counted toward both race sanction numbers. It seems to me that if you turned a wheel in practice on the track that you took part in some form of both races. I guess I would not be suprised if you didn't get a refund based on the wording of the event. On the other hand just running one lap in practice would count towards an entry in the car count for both races and should help with the participation numbers for the class. I guess there are two questions posed here, maybe sombody has the answer to how this works?

[Jim Nash]

I worked a Safety truck for this weekend...actually had a lot of fun and have a new found respect for the orange clad folks. My guess is that had that been an FE only race, the start would have been waved off but, because there was a split start, the green was thrown. My experience has been that, as drivers, we don't deal with wave offs very well and with a split start, that makes it worse.

This does not make any sense (to me). I can see not waving-off the second group of a split start but why is there a problem with the first? Dealing with a wave-off (20 yrs of driving for myself) is part of the deal, not something that should be a problem. Drivers moan about jumped starts and then can't deal with a wave off? Pick your poison.

Jim

[Wren]

The supps for most double nationals that I see have a section on refunds. I remember that it requires seeing the chief steward to explain what has happened to them. A popped engine or banged up car is usually considered a good reason and they will refund some part of your entry fee. This usually applies after a Friday where you qualify for Saturday and Sunday the same day in two different sessions.

[Brad Ellingson]

This does not make any sense (to me). I can see not waving-off the second group of a split start but why is there a problem with the first? Dealing with a wave-off (20 yrs of driving for myself) is part of the deal, not something that should be a problem. Drivers moan about jumped starts and then can't deal with a wave off? Pick your poison.

Jim

Jim,

I thought the start should have been waved off. The point I was trying to make was that the Starter may have been considering what was coming behind this group.....you wave off the first, you have to wave off the second....but the second group was perfectly aligned...now those driver's are complaining about a waved off start. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.