Engine damage - Need advise on options

[Steve Demeter]

If the cylinder walls are mirror like, they are too smooth and the rings will never seat.

That would account for the blow by.

300 oil temp without a cooler would not be too alarming.

If you are going to pull the pan, I would say go ahead and undo the bearing caps one at a time and check them.

If they are damaged, it will be obvious.

while doing that, pop each piston out and check for broken rings or ring lands. My guess is that there will not be any because of the condition of the cylinder walls.

If you can swing the $ send it to Curtis to reassemble. If not, get a friend that knows if you don't what to do and put it back together. Make sure you find the source of the clatter.

Check the valve clearances. I have had one loosen up and it sounded like the rods were coming through the block.

[Purple Frog]

IMHO

If you are confident with engine work, going forward is not a problem. Afterall, you are running regionals in a 20 year old car. It's not like you are up against Niki on Saturday in September at Road America. These are basically high class tractor motors. Most local auto machinists that are building high quality 1500 hp drag motors can handle making all the bearings fit correctly. If it's been pro built recently, then usually the line bores, deck heights, etc. are Ok for a refresh.

The trick is going to be if the cylinder walls can't be brought up to snuff with your pistons, or even new ones. Accurate measurements of the wall diameter, etc is important. We aren't allowed overbores in FC, so if the walls are too far apart, then it will need sleeves. Sleeves need to be done by experienced pros.

If the cylinders are salvagable, then a refresh locally is possible. Hone cylinders, properly set ring gaps. New valve springs. If you are serious, set all the spring tensions equal. Lap the valves, after you have checked to make sure one isn't bent in it's guide. OBTW, a loose valve seat can be a nightmare.

I have seen overrevs with weak springs ding the piston and/or bend the valve. (even though it is a non-interference motor)

Before you disassemble the head check valve lash cold.

Look at the rear main in the trust bearing area.
If you have to replace pistons, make sure you are working with a machinist that can blueprint and set piston height relative to the deck.


The pro engine builders deserve every penny they charge. But you can refresh regional motors yourself if you have the skill set.

Onward.

[RobSpec]

I did not get the block removed last night. I spent too much time removing the oil lines, brake and clutch lines, sensor lines etc . I will have the block out by Saturday afternoon and will have checked all of the items you guys mentioned. I will post then and let you know my findings. Also, from home I can upload a few photos so you can see the shape of the parts.

Wish me luck that it only needs a refresh due to parts wear and the clatter I heard is just a broken pressure plate finger.

Remember the old Hee Haw song "if it weren't for bad luck you'd have no luck at all - pain, despair and agony on me". It's been running through my head all week.
Rob

[rickb99]

Hey, you DO NOT have a hole in the block. BE HAPPY!!

Did you get the 2.0 Liter engine data on the previous page?

[RobSpec]

Hi Rick,
Yes both you and Purple Frog sent it to me. The will be huge if I do it myself. I am crossing every thing on my body that can be crossed in hopes the bottom end is still good and I don't have to resleave or gring a crank. If so, I would be more likely to do the rebuild myself. If something is buggered I will likely go the pro route. I am looking at either Farley or Butler right now as potential pro's.
I have added up the parts for a rebuild without having to do major machining and come to around $1000 so I would save over $2000 as a DIY. I know the downside to DIY but that $2000 is not easy to overcome.

This kind of luck seems to follow me around as back in 1999 I had a Porsche 944 turbo for PCA racing and drivers eds. 2nd event out I blew a hole the size of my fist in the block and melted a piston. Lots of fire, smoke and screaming/browbeating from my wife. This time she seems to be taking it all in stride. .....So I got that going for me.
hehehehe
Rob

[Bob Wright]

Did you look at the oil before you tore down the motor? Why didn't you look at the clutch first; its the easiest think to get to?

One last thought....

A pro built motor has a habit of living thoughout its expected life cycle, be it 1500 miles or 2500 miles, etc. A home built motor often ventilates itself somewhere along the line, or can't make decent hp. The builders know how to make them work efficiently and with very good reliability. Don't ignor that.

[rickb99]

...This kind of luck seems to follow me around as back in 1999 I had a Porsche 944 turbo for PCA racing and drivers eds. 2nd event out I blew a hole the size of my fist in the block and melted a piston. Lots of fire, smoke and screaming/browbeating from my wife. This time she seems to be taking it all in stride. .....So I got that going for me. hehehehe Rob

Naah. a guy out here has you beat. Over the past 2 years as a NEW racer. VD FC car.

First time I met him and his wife/kids he backed the car into a dirt bank at my station and took a front and rear corner off the car (pretty sure it was his first race). My son and I helped load it on his trailer at the end of the day (his wife and kids have NOT been back).

After repairs, one weekend he lost a wheel on the main straight but kept it off the walls. Forgot to tighten wheel nut! Later in the day, he over did it in a high speed sweeper and put it in to the wall. Total loss.

Bought a new car and it's the one he put a hole in the block this past session after an over rev.... OUCH!

Very nice guy. I offered to help him swap out the engine over the past winter (as he had a spare) but I haven't heard from him. He may have hung up his chaps but I haven't seen the car for sale. Hopefully not.

Now that's just simple bad luck.. sigh

[RobSpec]

Hi Bob,
I drained the oil last night and it looked good. I didn't notice any metal particles but didn't run it through a strainer either.
I'm not sure what you mean by the clutch being easist the get to. My car is a 1989 VD. The head was the easiest to remove which I did first (valve cover and 10 head bolts). That gave a quick look at the valves and cylinder walls and top of the pistons).
To get to the clutch I have to first remove the rear end of the car which involves lots of oil lines, exhaust, wires, sensors, shocks, and diffuser. Then I can remove about 8 bolts that hold the rear end to the engine and frame ( I am at this point right now).
If I am doing something wrong or the hard way please let me know. I took it apart this way last summer (took the engine out as a single piece and didn't pull the head) following the fire I had so I could replace and clean up everything.

I'm not ignoring the pro builder. I know they would put together a good engine. I am not sure I can afford the cost though. I am hopeful that there is no machine work required which would make it a simpler job of swapping out bearings and rings. If this is the case I can't see the added cost of $2000 + to do what would be a weekend job in my garage. The engine has already been built and blueprinted as it previously made 147 hp. That means there is no additional head work to do as it already has been ported and flowmatched. Assuming there is no major damage I should not need a crank grind, resleaving of the cylinders, replacement of rods or pistons, line boring, milling of the head etc.
I priced out all the bearings, valve springs, rings, and gaskets at Pegasus and it came to less that $800. There are several local machine shops that can do a valve job to my specs if I supply the parts for around $150.

My biggest concern if I do it myself is the run in and setting of the timing.
I ordered a book earlier this week "Ford Sohc pinto & sierra cosworth dohc engines high - performance manual"
Hopefully that will give me some more help.
Rob

[Bob Wright]

Ok- if the oil is good (no metal in it), then your bearings are good. I forgot about the year of the car- you're right, its more difficult to split it, but you're going to have to do that anyway.

As Frog says, these are tractor motors and not all that difficult. If I read all the posts correctly, there should still be some life in the rings and bearings, but the blow-by is distressing. Don't attempt it yourself unless you are competent with motor building, otherwise get local help or send it to Farley or Butler.

Make sure you find the "smoking gun" that explains the noise, because its there somewhere.

[Revs2-12k]

Hi Rick,
I have added up the parts for a rebuild without having to do major machining and come to around $1000 so I would save over $2000 as a DIY. I know the downside to DIY but that $2000 is not easy to overcome. Rob

These are simple motors (but tractors Purple? ) and remember, you've got a 22 year old chassis.

If you do the work yourself, buying the book by Des Hammill would be the best $ 25 bucks you could spend. It helped me immensely when I spun a bearing.

Setting the timing is only hard the 1st time you do it.

[pahillclimber]

Actually, Frog is correct that these motors are tractor motors. Ford used these engines in their light duty farm tractor line as well as suppied the engines to other tractor companies for industrial lawn mowers.

I used to have a air compressor trailer with a Ford V8 used as an engine and a compressor, it ran on one side of the engine with the other side as a compressor.

Rich

[RobSpec]

Saturday I got the block out and removed the pan. I immediately knew it wasn't good as there were metal pieces in the bottom of the pan. Rod #3 was sloppy at the crank. When I removed the rod endcap the bearing had not spun but was a mess. The rod appeared to have a small crack as well. Metal from this rod looked like it had plugged the oiling hole on rod #2. The main bearings are worn but not destroyed.
So, it looks like I will have to have the crank ground, replace at least one rod, and do a normal rebuild from there. Of course everything has to be cleaned andflushed to get the metal out.

The clutch release cylinder had squeezed it's o-ring out so that caused the clutch failure. The pressure plate and friction disc looked ok but there are several small cracks in the plate and flywheel friction surfaces. So, I will replace them as well.

The engine has Ford Racing pistons with designation (M6102-B200). The rods show (M-6200-C200) Does anyone know what type rods these are and where to get them? Are there better rods available?

I plan on taking the block to a machine shop Monday to be dipped for cleaning. The crank will be dropped off for grinding as well.

I also heard there is a new camshaft available that adds around 5 hp to these motors. Does anyone know where these can be had?

Thanks, I appreciate the continued advise.
Rob (I've got lots of luck.....alll bad)

[FC63F]

Sorry about your motor -been there done that - at least you didn't throw a rod through the block or something like that. A rebuild is in order and you need to consider the parts alternatives

There are several upgrades that are legal available in the market place including forged pistons and forged rods that improve longevity - I may be wrong but I think the pistons and rods in your motor are Ford parts

The crankl shaft is still a Ford PN, but there is no upgrade from stock. The cam shaft however has an upgraded spec as of last year which may or may not add HP. We are also allowed lightened flywheel. There is also the opportunity to go with an Aluminum head if you have lots of $$ to play with.

All of these options add cost to the rebuild but I would give some significant thought to upgrade the rods to the new spec forged rods by Crower and otlers. Forged has got to be better than OE powdered metal pieces.

Regards

David Keep

[RobSpec]

Thanks David,
I will have to look at the available rods and see which are the strongest. The existing rods I found to be Oliver and the pistons are JE (eventhough they are stamped Ford Racing). Looks like a new rod at Pegasus is $180 each !!!. I understand the rods are the weak point and would like stronger if available. Something that can withstand 7500 rmp would be nice. From what I have read the stock Oliver cast steel rods are rated for only 6800 RPMs.
This seems like an area where the rules, though well intentioned, have caused prices to skyrocket. I can buy 7500 RPM rods for a V8 for $450 a set of 8 or $57 each. To charge $180 for a fairly inexpensive to manufacture cast rod is a ripoff. Guess it keeps people with money from building these engines with titanium everything and revving them to 9000 ROM.
Oh well, the cost of racing.

Any other suggestions as far as parts to upgrade? Where can I get the new camshaft?
Thanks Rob

[Purple Frog]

It appears you had all the 'good' parts in that motor. Luckily you shut down before you aired out the block.

Those part numbers are the good Oliver rods and the forged J&E Pistons. Olivers are the most pricey of Pinto parts. Top shelf. If that rod had been a stock cast rod, you would have holed the block.

Quicksilver sells the uprated cam for about $360. If you call them, you might want to ask if they have a spare Oliver rod to sell. Butler or Quicksilver may have a rod, so you don't have to buy a new set.

A thought about your damage. There are three tracks that I'm careful about in terms of oil pressure. Daytona, Sebring, and Lime Rock. On the high banks of Daytona be careful that the pickup in your tank has oil when on the 33 degree banks. At Lime Rock, getting airbourne at the jump turn can cause the oil in the tank to float up and away from the pickup. At Sebring, the track is so rough that oil in the tank is getting bounced all over the place. Foaming the oil can be an issue.

Butler likes to run the oil from the scavage pumps through the oil cooler on it's way to the tank to try to eliminate some of the air bubbles. At Daytona and Sebring I like to run a little extra oil.

For modern VD oil tanks, Quicksilver sells a nice baffle to help with these issues.

Throw the oil cooler away and get a new one.

[Dave Welsh]

Rob

Check out BAT for your parts. They are out Sarasota. He sells the Oliver rods, $195 each, $415 for a set.

The link to his parts page is here. Scroll down to page 4 to see the parts for the bottom end.

http://97.74.103.94/files/ffnet.pdf

[Jon Jeffords]

Are we attributing the failure to loss of oil pressure caused by the rough track at Sebring?

Rob, you mentioned you have an AIM system. Did you check the data for any oil pressure abnormalities during your Sebring weekend?

[FC63F]

One thing I would consider is to have the other 3 rods crack checked to make sure that you don't put one back in the engine that is not in good shape.


David Keep

[rickb99]

.... The clutch release cylinder had squeezed it's o-ring out so that caused the clutch failure.....

I don't know the design of the VD slave cylinder. But, on the Reynard with its annular slave, this can happen VERY easily if you're not careful.

We were taught by the expert on these cars (Keith Averill). Carefully bleed the system NOT depressing the clutch pedal too far. Then slowly depress the clutch pedal until it JUST disengages then set your pedal stop there.

If you allow the pedal its full travel it could blow the o-ring seal right out. Check with your VD expert for a similar issue. If somebody has changed the clutch mater cylinder size this could contribute to the problem.

[Rick Kirchner]

The oliver rods are the best made for this motor. The other non-stock replacements are nearly as good and a whole lot cheaper, but if you have olivers you might as well stay with them.

When my local engine builder looked at the Olivers, and then the pinto application, he asked me "do you realize thee are good for 100HP EACH?"

[RobSpec]

Thanks guys,
Does anyone know what RPM the Oliver rods are supposedly good for? I looked up the Crower rods and they say they are good for 8500 RPM and made of 4340 forged steel. A set of 4 Crower rods are $405 at Summit Racing. Just trying to decide if I should get 1 Oliver rod for $185 or 4 new Crowers for $405 or 4 new Olivers for $415 as Dave Welsch told me.

Looks like I also need 1 JE/Ford Racing Piston as the #3 one looks like it was hammering the head when the bearing clearance got sloppy. There is a nice figure 8 shape on the top of the piston. No visible damage but it can't be good that it is cleaned around the pattern of the combustion chamber in the head. The BAT catalog shows the piston but has "call for price" so I need to call them tomorrow.

I did download the AIM data but need to review it to see my lowest oil pressure. I was running Valvoline synthetic Race Only 20-50 oil. Wonder if I should be running a thinner oil?

Engine block goes to be dipped tomorrow for cleaning and I get a evaluation on the crank grind dimensions. The rods will get a dye pen as well to check for cracks. Also will get an evaluation on the cylinder bore but they look like a hone will work for that.

This is going to be a fun project. I have taken lots of photos of the disassembly. If anyone wants to see them email me and I will send them out.
Rob

[Rick Kirchner]

I've sent mine to 8200 on a missed shift. I've put more than 36 hours on those rods since then and they're still in my motor. I use the valvoline synthetic, although I start with 5W30 in the early part of the season and as I add oil I add 20W50, so by the end of the season it's probably a 50/50 mix.

Have someone check all the rods for cracks and straightness and if OK, just use 'em.

[Roger Eade]

Many years ago I went on a course put on by Repco that was run by a Man from ACL, one of the interesting things that I learned was that you do not need to hone a good bore, it all depend on just what rings you are using, as he said, the rings spend a lot of time going up and down to get the bore polished, why do you want to go and rough it up, very good washing with HOT soapy water until very clean, spotless in fact, fit rings with slight oiling, one of his big things was getting parts clean, and keeping them clean, and checking tolerences many times, on race engines this may mean reassemble and pull down a couple of times, it has worked for me for many years, and most people, as I have said before, can rebuild these motors, just take your time, there is plenty of people here that will give you their time or advice.
Roger

[RobSpec]

I just dropped the engine parts off at a local machine shop. The crank will be checked for cracks and ground. The cylinder bores will be measured and if needed honed. The rods will be checked for cracks (I'm pretty sure #3 is cracked). The engine will be dipped and cleaned. I also will have them do a valve job.
They said I would have it back by the end of the week. So little news until then.

Now I need to make my list of parts to order.
1) all new bearings sized to the new ground crank, cam bearings etc.
2) piston rings
3) 1 new piston
4) 1 Oilver rod or a new set of 4 matching ones
5) belts and gaskets
6) valve springs
7) cam oil tube
8) clutch pressure plate and friction disc and maybe flywheel?
9) flywheel bolts

I have a few questions maybe you guys can help with?
1) Has anyone tried the new cam and does it add horsepower?
2) I have a photo of the flywheel showing minor cracks in the friction surface. Is there someone I can email a photo and ask if I should replace it?
3) I also have a photo of the hydraulic clutch release assy. It had squished two of the 3 o-rings and squeezed the last one out the side. Should I just replace the o-rings for $5 or should I go to a better mechanism? I have a photo of mine if someone can give me a suggestion.
4) I noticed that the intake manifold was not matched to the head. The intake was quite a bit smaller than the hole at the head causing a step. Should I machine the intake to smooth it to the hole diameter at the head? The exhaust looked nicely matched. I have photos of this as well.
Thanks Rob

[Steve Demeter]

Read the GCR very carefully before machining on either the head ports or the intake manifold.

There are very specific maximum sizes allowed for these openings. you do not want to go over them.

For best results, the intake manifold and the head ports should be matched dead on. But remember, do not make one too big and be illegal.

[RobSpec]

Thanks,
I just looked at the new 2010 GCR and the max inlet port is 39.5mm. I will have to measure tonight to see if mine is smaller. If I can expand to the head opening size legally should I?

I seem to have a stock flywheel with 110 tooth starter gear. It had these numbers on it 36115 3 3217. It has 6 holes for mounting and one alignment pin hole. The spec says min weight of 10.5 lbs. If I am over that where should metal be removed? There are some small radial cracks on the machined surface flywheel side and the inset side. Is this a sign that it needs to be replaced? There is indication that it was slipping with blueing marks as well. Maybe just have it turned slightly and replace the pressure plate?

The pressure plate looks to be stock and has 6 bolt locations. The friction disc is a Tilton 7.25" disc with 23 splines. The disc measures at 0.100 inch thick which is almost new so it should be good.

Thanks Rob

[Purple Frog]

My advise is for you not to mess with the head. Unless you are very experienced at head porting and have a flow bench, you will ruin a good head. Most of the improvement in pinto performance in the past 10 years has been in the science of head porting. Take off too much, and you're screwed. If you want head work done, you must ship it to an experienced pinto engine builder. If you are on a budget, refresh it as it is.

Any good machinist can lighten your flywheel some. The object is to take as much meat from as far out and work in. My machinist had not seen a successfully lightened stock flywheel and he was only comfortable getting mine down to about 11+ lb. Whoever lightens it, must be able to rebalance it. He/she can resurface it while working on it. My machinist has a high end computerized crankshaft balancing machine.

Look over the pressure plate and clutch disk carefully. Make sure they are not dished. Is the disk contacting the flywheel across it's whole contact patch? Do the disk splines slide easily on the input shaft splines?

[RobSpec]

Thanks Frog,
You are the best. Guess I will leave the head intake ports alone.

Thanks Rob

[Purple Frog]

Thinking more about your intake manifold....

Sounds like you might have a stock intake bolted to a racing head.

Call somebody like Sandy first. But, i'd be inclined to port the intake manifold. Two reasons. 1. it's aluminum and easy. 2. i've got two more stock ones on the shelf, so mistakes would be cheap.

But first I'd call a pinto head porting guru.

I sent you pix of a Tilton clutch.

[Modo]

dipping block sounds like neat thing to do, but when the plugs get removed for dipping, there is a plug or bushing behind the auxillary shaft (tiny and listed in Purp's engine specs) that if it doesn't find its way back into the block u will have three pounds of oil pressure....happened to me in 90's and a guy around here recently....have a BLC intake manifold used by the fast engine builders for $175 plus shipping if u want it, BLC 180 on it..... can email me for some of their prep principals they use if u want ur guy to try one.....interesting that I tried an intake myself figuring that Ford knew best but their engine was made for 3K and not 6.8K and stock flow-cam&carb.....so burnt out the aluminum tubes with muriatic acid trying to keep the same shape as original but upping the flow....painted enamel where I didn't want etched-under carb......well kind of sort of missed on a couple pro prep principles.....good luck and follow the rules as mentioned above and make sure ur engine guy does, if not a Pinto guy "i'll just do this here deal, done it for 30 years and have the strongest engines in the state!!" WHOOPS!
Mike O