Rebuilds... real world costs

[aspenripper]

anyone that would care to PM me with recent cost of a rebuild from the big three I would much appreciate it.

If you could let me know if it was standard go over or if you had a major additional cost to total, ie head etc.

I have made several calls and as I expected I found significant differences and I understand all the variables just looking for valid invoice totals.

thanks
Ed

[Rick Ross]

Hi Ed,

Everyone knows that Atlantic rebuilds cost at least $30K!

Actually, my rebuild costs have been similar to a Pinto. I will send you a PM.

Cheers,

Rick

[glenn cooper]

Hey Ed, Just curious:
I wonder if you might list exactly what is replaced during a rebuild of one of these engines.
The info I was told a few years back is that a Toyota FA engine needs refreshed at 500 mile intervals.
IIRC, that included basically rings and a valve job.
Also IIRC, rebuilds were required at 2000 mile intervals and included pistons, bearings, crank and rods redone/replaced, etc...
Thanks, GC

[Charles Warner]

Ed,

Too many variables to give a pat answer. Biggest determinant is the starting condition of the engine. The only way to know that is to start from a known rebuild and known parts of a known age. It also depends on the engine builder. You don't specify a particular engine although I might assume a 4AG from your avatar. You mention the big "three." I assume you mean Loyning, Hasselgren and one other (Jennings, Knapp, etc.). If you are talking about a Cosworth variant then Steve Jennings is the expert while others will do a good job. Prices will vary. Acceptability of parts will vary. I have had invoices from just over $6k to over $15k for a BDD rebuild from Jennings. For Toyotas I recommend Loyning as well. A good engine builder will give you a judgement up front as to what parts are usable and what need replacing. And he will give you a very accurate estimate of the costs. If you want to use that particular builder you have to accept his judgement. If you don't then either he will not do business with you or he will not guarantee any part of his work. One very strong suggestion is that you pick an engine builder and stick with him for that engine.

It also depends on how well or badly the engine has been treated, what type of power you want, what rev limit you use, how many miles between rebuilds, etc. I don't think I've ever seen a full rebuild invoice of less than $5k on either Toyotas or Cossies and most approach twice that.

To quote my dear old pappy . . . you pays your money and takes your chances. This is usually an area where you get what you pay for.

[Paul LeCain]

I send mine back after 800-900 miles. We use a lot of revs - usually 10,300-10,400.

They always get new bearings, pistons, and rod bolts. Sometimes they get a valve or three.

Then there's the odd oil pump rotor set, valve spring bucket, etc., plus seals and gaskets.

The cost for a 'normal' build is around $6500. I had one last year from a broken rod bolt (holed both sides of the block, sent a chunk through the oil pump, wrecked the windage tray, etc.) That one was $10,000, but included a new block and rods. No crank - amazingly it survived.

[Rick Ross]

Coop,

As far as I know, there is no difference between a "refresh" and a "rebuild"....the terms are used interchangeably. Rebuild intervals vary with type of use -- higher revs give shorter rebuild intervals. I limit my max revs to around 9800, so I have been planning on 1000 to 1200 miles between rebuilds. The goal is to rebuild the engine before a catastrophic failure occurs. If you wait for something to break, the costs will be high indeed. I am told that the most common failure is a rod bolt or piston.

A rebuild normally consisits of new pistons, rings, rod bolts, bearings, and routine valve/head work. The crank and/or block is not normally replaced unless there is a problem. I have a simple carbed motor, and the last rebuild cost around $5700 after about 1200 miles of use. This works out to about $4.75 per mile.......much higher than FB, of course, but not that different from some other classes. The biggest concern is that if the engine explodes you are likely looking at a $10K plus repair bill.

[Charles Warner]

Explosions are not the only reason that will cause a high bill. Too many racers think they can use the same parts forever. Parts simply wear out. Heads become soft and have to be replaced. A new head is $6500 plus machining and massaging. Cranks don't pass inspection. yadda yadda. To be brutally honest, if the costs of one rebuild a year can not be accepted then these engines are probably not for you, considering all eventualities. However, a DB-4 with a mazda engine might prove just the ticket.

That said, I easily got two years on a rebuild on both Cossies and 4AG by holding the revs down to 9,500 max. Any engine builder will tell you the number one factor on engine life is rpm.

[Paul LeCain]

I've never had a Toyota head 'go bad', even on big bangs where all I sent to the engine builder was the head, the pumps, and the pan.

I have heads that have lasted through 25 rebuilds.

Or were you talking about Cosworth heads?

[aspenripper]

Thanks for the info guys I appreciate it.
Ed

[Charles Warner]

I've never had a Toyota head 'go bad', even on big bangs where all I sent to the engine builder was the head, the pumps, and the pan.

I have heads that have lasted through 25 rebuilds.

Or were you talking about Cosworth heads?

You are right, Paul. I've had two Cossie heads wind up too soft for proper usage. Of course, no way of telling their true age. Thankfully new units are available.