Flag and Trophy for what?

[Daryl DeArman]

Matt,

I never defined competing. I was talking about winning and suggesting there are many at every level that don't care about it. That doesn't mean they aren't competing to beat the other guy, or their own previous best, or whatever.

I hope I didn't imply that everybody who isn't in it for the win is only participating.

[Steve Demeter]

I probably have 200 trophies, but two things mean more to me than all of them combined:
1. The opportunity to take a victory lap with the flag
2. Getting to keep the flag.

I once won a national race and did not even get offered a victory lap with a flag, got offered one with no flag. As a matter of fact the first 2 races I won dating back to 1980, I got no flag.

Guess what is displayed most prominently imn my trophy room?

We get so little recognition, that what precious little we do get becomes all the more important.

[blackbmwk1200r]

What about a 2nd Place finish in a field of 2 or a 3rd place finish in a field of 3 and so on. These could also be last place finishes as could a top ten finish in a field of ten. The significance of any place finish is a function of the number of competitors as well as many other factors that affect the competitiveness within any class.

Decisions to formalize the difference between one racer’s 1st place finish and another racer’s 1st place finish by withholding the spoils of this success do not logically nor equitably stop at the 1st Place finisher in a field of one.

And the very organization that failed to develop and promote competition across the full spectrum of its sanctioned classes should not be considering measures that will further demoralize those racers that keep coming despite the lack of participation in their class. The racer prepared and transported his car and paid to race because the organization said there would be a race. The failure to deliver a race should make the racer more deserving of a refund than the other measures suggested elsewhere in this thread.

[Charles Warner]

And the very organization that failed to develop and promote competition across the full spectrum of its sanctioned classes should not be considering measures that will further demoralize those racers that keep coming despite the lack of participation in their class.

Just where did you get the idea that the Club was considering any such thing? Rumors run rampant. These are simply opinions. For cryin' out loud, why all the animus? It's CLUB racing, amateur stuff, and is supposed to be fun. I personally could care less about a $5.00 trophy. YMMV. Performance is best judged from within, not by the amount of bling. We all know the realities of this sport. If having a lot of competition is important then choose the appropriate class.

[Peter Horvath]

And you can go for the track record, even when you're by yourself.

[blackbmwk1200r]

Just where did you get the idea that the Club was considering any such thing? Rumors run rampant. These are simply opinions. For cryin' out loud, why all the animus? It's CLUB racing, amateur stuff, and is supposed to be fun. I personally could care less about a $5.00 trophy. YMMV. Performance is best judged from within, not by the amount of bling. We all know the realities of this sport. If having a lot of competition is important then choose the appropriate class.

My post addresses the concerns, opinions and suggestions from earlier posts and are not in response to ideas about the Club considering specific action nor rampant rumors. Otherwise, I am in agreement with your points made "about fun", "judged from within", "realities of the sport". I further agree with your opinion that it is important to chose the right class if you want "a lot of competition". I believe the Club's focus should be (and probaly is) on promoting and ensuring a minimum amount of participation in each class and not on what to do about trophys and and vistory laps for 1st place finishers in a field of 1.

[dc]

So many bigger issues with the way this club and our classes are managed, OC/IC trophies are pushing deck chairs off of the edge of the Titanic.

[EYERACE]

A true sponsor that hands over money at the Club Racing level is a rare thing.........but occasionally some do get some at times........so I feel I should give something back
......one of my trophies that said > DAYTONA < and > 1ST PLACE < is somewhere in the New York City Headquarters of a sponsor - Marchon Eyewear - the people that invented the metal frames you can twist.....there's another one somewhere out there in the rest of the world that says SEBRING/1ST in the possession of a sponsor too. Framed four foot long pictures of my various cars are on walls in sponsors as Contact Lens Labs or elsewhere. After some later time maybe the trophies or pictures have been put in the dumpster.....that's none of my business but the gesture was appreciated on their part and I continued to get money from them, so it was perhaps smart to share the trophy.

Years ago one weekend at Sebring kids from "Miracle Network" or some other such "kids & terminal cancer organization" were invited to spend the day at the track........so..... there is/was also a 1ST PLACE trophy in the hands of a little 5 yr old kid who may by now have died of his cancer.....but I sure as heck was happy to go over to the kids after the race and give the trophy away. The parent came over to my paddock later and asked me to autograph it. I was stunned. I'll never forget.

Some times the most important trophies are the ones you don't keep...........so if my only other car in class competition happened to have a fatal mechanical failure early Saturday morning, don't deny me a $5 piece of wood later in the day. It's my business what I do with it. I do hope after a while all of us come to realize that once we've got a few, we really don't need anymore......I believe most here already do think that way.

I don't need a Victory Lap so the day can flow along for others more quickly.....but the guy who gave the checker to the corner worker has a lot of Class.

I could be wrong as to the number but I think it's a dollar value below $500 and there's no need to have the payor issue an IRS form 1099.....or is it form 1098. So the SCCA could issue, or the Region could issue, an 'in-house currency' of say $20 for a win, one a weekend, expires one year, non-transferable, no one car class awarded......maybe. The currency would only be redeemable in another race entry expense. There's no way any of us would get near the magic number wherein a 1099 would need to be issued by the Sanctioning body so it would be a simple thing to administer. It could be done...but nobody at the SCCA is listening.

[Speed Sport Engineering]

I probably have 200 trophies, but two things mean more to me than all of them combined:
1. The opportunity to take a victory lap with the flag
2. Getting to keep the flag.

I once won a national race and did not even get offered a victory lap with a flag, got offered one with no flag. As a matter of fact the first 2 races I won dating back to 1980, I got no flag.

Guess what is displayed most prominently imn my trophy room?

My opinion exactly. Getting to keep the flag means more then any trophy. They give trophies to 2nd, 3rd, ect...., but only the winner gets the flag. I'm dissapointed when regions don't provide flags for the winners.

As for trophies if there is only 1 in a class - I don't think it's a good idea.

[TrackBrat]

If anything I think you should get a flag. Hell for some of the classes be nice if you got something for finishing......I can remember the races where it seemed like no one wanted to win because every car kept breaking.

As for the class of one, maybe need to find why there is only one car in that group and see what can be done to get more competition....hell if there is a another one of the cars just sitting around somewhere I would drive it It is sad to see classes that were once so popular becoming classes of low to no numbers.

[mmi16]

The person that preps his car and tow's to the race and completes the race did infact beat all those that decided not to prep their cars and tow to the race.

We can only prep and race our own cars....what other competitors decide to do with their time and money is their decision and theirs alone.

I would much rather beat at 10 or 20 car field than be the only car in the class....but I don't control anybody's entry other than my own.

[Evl]

The person that preps his car and tow's to the race and completes the race did infact beat all those that decided not to prep their cars and tow to the race.

Sweet! That means I beat Michael Schumacher something like 12 times this year!! Now that does mean that Jenson, Lewis, Vettel, et al, all have a few races on me, but a 12-17 record isn't all that bad considering I don't have hundreds of millions behind me.

[mmi16]

Sweet! That means I beat Michael Schumacher something like 12 times this year!! Now that does mean that Jenson, Lewis, Vettel, et al, all have a few races on me, but a 12-17 record isn't all that bad considering I don't have hundreds of millions behind me.

If you were racing in their series....I don't believe any of those mentioned are participating in SCCA Club racing in any division.

You can only compete in the races you go to. You can only compete against the cars in class that show at the races you go to. If no one else decides to attend, you don't control their decisions.

[Olsinvest]

Everybody's ego needs a strokong now and then. If giving a driver a flag and Victory Lap (when there is no-one else to race in class) does it, good for them. Chances are, there is someone else on track from a different class victory anyway and it doesn't take that much more time. As Larry said, we all know........

[Marshall Mauney]

Everybody's ego needs a strokong now and then. If giving a driver a flag and Victory Lap (when there is no-one else to race in class) does it, good for them. Chances are, there is someone else on track from a different class victory anyway and it doesn't take that much more time. As Larry said, we all know........

Hey Alan - What's a Spec Miata guy doing over here?

How are things over at Summit Point? I was hoping some of the WDC SM'ers would show up for the Runoffs, but I don't think I saw any....????

[Olsinvest]

I lurk around here in the shadows....... I was hoping to make the Runoffs but had a few family issues that prevented me from doing much of anything.

[mbrandt1402]

I could care less about the trophy, but I sure like to collect those checkers and since I have a spare seat (SpecS2), I get to give victory laps.

I push hard at every event. I'm disappointed if I don't come away with a personal best. Some of those are class record efforts, and most any race weekend I will beat a Swift, the cars that made Spec and Club S2 happen. I would prefer to race in fields of 6 or more, like it was when I joined the class, but I should be penalized as the last guy standing? I didn't go seeking a class with no participation.


By the way, the F440 race was one driver, two cars, two entries and at a National. Anyone familiar with the class at all, and the era of the "stunt" would probably be able to identify the driver: Al Loehner. Keep in mind that he had to pit, change cars, buckle in and still turn more than half of the laps of the winning FV in both of his F440s. Unless I'm mistaken, he tried to have the total points from 1st and 2nd count as only one event. Makes me smile everytime I think of it.

[WhatsThatnoise]

I earned a 2nd in FC against folks driving much better, more expensive rides than my old Elva.

Holy smokes...An Elva?

What a fantastic car!....

Been trying to find one for awhile.

BTW...I raced ITB for 5 years and only won once...They said the trophies would be in the mail.
Not so.
But I still have the flag & video.
(last lap, last corner win...Haven't won since)
Oh well...Once in my life is better than none!

[Larry]

My Elva was a '63 FJr car with a BMC 1100cc factory experimental engine. The engine turned 8500 RPM and put out about 110 hp. I ran it in 68/9, and it was outclassed by the pace of development of cars like the Brabham and Lotus. I was on skinny little 4" rims, while almost everything else was on at least 6" and up. I had drum brakes, too. We bought the car for $500, which was a lot to spend back then. The selection of cars was rather limited, and the only two race cars that I found were the Elva and an FP MGA. The Lotus 51 FF had just come on the scene, and I remember "committing lust in my heart" over the sight of one. Later I managed to buy a beautiful 51. My early racing career ended when I joined USAF in 1969. It broke my heart, but we sold the Elva for $300.

With a wife and kids to put through college, it took me 30 years to get back into a race car, but both my kids are out of the house and achieving their own successes. International Racing Products keeps me involved in racing on a daily basis, and occasionally manages to make a dollar...so it all started with an Elva. This year I'll get my Titan Mk 6 FF finished up and do some vintage races as well as some FRCCA events.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[WhatsThatnoise]

My 1st experience with racing was the Vintage Grand Prix in Pittsburgh.
I never knew about the SCCA.
Elvas were basically dominating small bore production (and occasionally a Lotus 7)
I lusted after a Courier for many years & finally got one.
Thought it was the prettiest car I'd ever seen.

The vintage guys basically told me to get lost.
They didn't want someone with no racing experience going W2W with them.
So I went to get some experience in the SCCA and never did get back to vintage.

I Auto-X the Courier and do rather well with it.
And I race a Spec Wrecker

The Elva formula Jr. is an iconic car

[rickb99]

....The vintage guys basically told me to get lost.
They didn't want someone with no racing experience going W2W with them.
So I went to get some experience in the SCCA and never did get back to vintage.

Rather surprising attitude. Our vintage group (SOVREN) are about as UP TIGHT concerning safe racing as an organization can get. But they run a novice 'school' at the beginning of each year for drivers of ALL skill levels.

Thank goodness they do this as, one of the novices a few years ago did the school in an F5000 car! He moved up the speed slowly and carefully over the year. He's now one of the fastest guys in the club and, in addition to the F5000, has brought us George Fullmers Shadow Can-Am car, one of the very rare Shadow F1 cars and the equally rare Al Anser Can-Am Frisbee fully restored. That's along with his brother who drives equally exotic stuff for our enjoyment.

http://www.jdcracing.com/

In addition to some fine cars they also provide MASSIVE support to the SOVREN organization as a whole.

i.e.
It's a BAD IDEA to reject people on a whim. You never know what you're throwing away.

[problemchild]

People race for all different reasons, as shown in this thread.
People take honor in different results, as shown in this thread.

We need to attract and include more people. If someone takes pride in a trophy or flag, then let them. For those who no longer value the "symbols" or "tokens" of success on the track, leave your trophy and flag with the Region, so they can give them away next time.

I have won dozens of trophies but I have about 10 that are displayed proudly as they represent special days that mean alot to me. The rest have enentually gone in the garbage or been burned as firewood. I felt obligated to pick them up for a long time .... but now leave them for another driver on another day. I would urge those who "too many" trophies already, to do the same.

[sracing]

Greg is right. The whole thread is much ado about nothing. If the discussion were about how National points were awarded for race numbers, it might have merit. But whether a guy should get a $1 flag and $5 trophy ? Do we care ? The value is up to him.

In regards to his pace lap. We typically aren't a spectator event. Whose watching other than crew? Let the stewards decide based upon time contraints. However, I doubt that the typical flag lap adds anything to the schedual overall.

[Larry]

As a steward, I watch the schedule carefully. By the time a driver comes in, gets his flag and completes his victory lap it adds 3+ minutes. During this time we can't really do much in the way of "clean-up." Our region typically runs 9 groups, so victory laps add 27 minutes to the racing day. I'm not against victory laps--just the opposite! But they do affect the amount of time the workers are on the corners and the event is underway.

Larry Oliver

[WhatsThatnoise]

As a flagger/racer and less often a racer/flagger
(on account of generally flagging more days/year than racing)
I will say that the time wasted in victory laps is a much needed break between sessions.

We don't generally have more than 2 people on a corner anymore.

Just sitting down for 3 min. or having a chance to get something out of the cooler is such a relief

[Steve Demeter]

What whatsthenoise said about giving the workers a break.

Let's see:

8 race groups, 5 minutes a victory lap = 40 minutes of break for tired workers and does not add any significant amount of time to the day. And no one tell me about overtime charges by tracks. I can not remember the last time an event I was at went over.