Can anyone explain FC?

[La Scuderia Raggi]

I've been trying to follow the FC threads regarding their various series. Pinto vs. Zetec, and now vs. Mazda. Late model Van Diemens only (Citations? Pipers?) Am I the only one confused here? Plus, there is the new 2 liter car for the World Speed Series, Mazda powered and I understand as wide as a '60's Cadillac. But, they do get to run with the IRL at Infineon this coming year......
Seems like we have a winner of a class here with FE. Will be interesting to see how we match up with these "other" series.

[Matthew Inge]

Definitely very interesting. I think too many people are offering their opinions, so Ill offer mine. There are some good ideas with the new USF2000 that make it appealing to many (good prize package, Star Mazda ride, great tracks), but it requires change. Apparently people like this so called change and now we have Mr. President....oops!

Soon teams will have the newer Vd's w/ the Mazda motors just as if you wanted to run a Zetec nowadays.


The other series, not really sure what their intentions are. They aren't a feeder series to anything.

In other words, Yes, be glad to have an FE.

[aspenripper]

another .02 worth
It is interesting how the marketing looks. The USF2000 is the feeder series to the IRL ? what a joke. An FA or PFM champion is lucky to get a a shot at the next level now we are supposed to believe a guy in a tube frame car with a non sequential box is going to sit in an IRL car next year ? Isn't that called Indy Lights ?? I suppose Andersen can get it done . FE was likely overlooked because of lack of wing/diffuser package. Perhaps perceived actuator problems. Shocks are an easy fix. Also more data out there in FC for teams to make the transition .

Another batch of cars and a group of drivers with stars in their eyes and a series that duplicates what already exists.

It is nice to see suppliers will be busy and there will likely be some good racing just not so sure about the rest.

BTW I mean no disrespect to anyone involved at any level but didn't FBMW fold wondering how much critical thinking went into this new project.

IMO another series to spend Daddies money on.

[D.T. Benner]

Chuck,the original intention of FC was to have a class for cars with Wings (and possible other Aero aids) and Dampers that could be used as a starting out point for drivers/engineers wanting to have a place to gather experience with those areas of car preperation and driving. When the top series of Formula car racing demanded those entering at the bottom needed to have some understanding of Aero and Setup that those things require.
This was before all the Racing School series were around. Drivers and Engineers had to have a learing base so the rules allow changes in Aero parts and Dampers. The engine change to allow Zetecs in was to have a more cost effective,modern power plant. The Andersen Series is going with the Mazda engine because Mazda ($$$$) supports Racing. He does not care if SCCA will let his Mazda powered cars into FC.
The WorldSpeed cars/series is also not being built around any SCCA FC rules. The cars could be homolagated into SCCA FA or FS class but the intention is for Worldspeed to have a US built car that THEY have control over as far as parts price and availability are concerned.
For a Club Racer your FE car makes perfect sense as changes to aero and dampers are restricted so you don't have to expend a lot of time and money looking for the next demon tweak to beat the other guy.
Choice of Car/Class or Series depends on where the driver/engineer intends to be in the future. Just my 2 cents. Darrell T. Benner

[Wren]

another .02 worth
It is interesting how the marketing looks. The USF2000 is the feeder series to the IRL ? what a joke. An FA or PFM champion is lucky to get a a shot at the next level now we are supposed to believe a guy in a tube frame car with a non sequential box is going to sit in an IRL car next year ?

The USF2000 series is just supposed to be part of the ladder to the IRL. The idea is supposed to be that someone would move from USF2000 then to pro mazda then to Indy lights and then into the IRL. I doubt someone would move straight from USF2000 to IRL, but as long as Daddy wrote a check for it, they would probably let it happen.

USF2000 will be a spec series with Mazda engines. The cars are based off of SCCA FC cars, but they are not FC cars.

FC is a non-spec class for club racing and the F2000 championship series. Two legal engines (zetec and pinto) and multiple chassis manufacturers although Van Diemen is by far the most common.

As for the world speed series, I don't know anything about it, but it is not a part of the SCCA as far as I know.

[problemchild]

Like any class in any form of racing ....

"If you have to ask .... you will not understand".

[Chas Shaffer]

The biggest difference I see between FC and FE is setup and development. FC is open (chassis, tires, shocks, springs, gears, wings, diffusers, suspension geometry, brakes, etc) while FE as a spec class is extremely restrictive. I'll use my brother and I as examples of how the two classes fits certain drivers.

I want the car to handle a certain way and I make rather significant setup changes (shock valving and pistions, springs, wings, gears, motion ratios, brake compounds, etc) from track to track as well as for various weather conditions to get the feeling I want. My brother (also a long time FC driver) does not understand the first thing about car setup or what changes to make to improve the car. He rarely ever turns a knob on his shocks. He asks me to "make the car as fast as you can" then he just drives it. The FC fits my style better, the FE would probably fit my brothers style better. There are arguements both ways as to which class highlights better drivers. Some think FE puts it all in the drivers hands while others argue if the FE shock, spring, wing, braking, gearing spec doesn't fit a drivers style then they can't really show what they can do. I tend to think a good driver should be able to setup the car to match their driving style. If you are fortunate enough that the Spec FE setup suits you then you'll be fast but if it doesn't then there's nothing you can do about it. Obviously setup has a lot to do with speed otherwise FC's wouldn't be faster than the more powerful FE which they are at many tracks. How many times have you heard a driver like Kyle Busch say Tony Stewarts setup doesn't work for him, likewise for Jimmy Johnson and Jeff Gordon, Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello, Ayrton Senna and Alan Prost or Rick Mears and Emerson Fitipalidi. None of them liked the others setups. So if you don't know how to setup a car or it doesn't interest you FE might be a better choice but if you like to make setup or engineering changes FC is a better choice.

Some think FE is cheaper to operate but I'm not so sure about it. FC can source parts from anywhere and therefore get them much cheaper vs buying from Enterprises, especially suspension and brakes. FC gearboxes seem to be more robust as well. The cost of FC development is what ever you want to spend from $0 to $unlimited and competitive pinto FC's can be purchased as inexpensively as $15k while a modern top of the line full developed FC is very similar in cost to an FE.

As stated by others, the pro series have nothing at all to do with SCCA FC. FC has 2 engines, an old pinto that is being phased out over time and a newer Zetec which should be very effective for many years to come.

As for chassis's, FC is open so anyone can build their own chassis or buy one for a builder as long as it meets the rules. It's no more confusing than FF or any other non spec class.

There are things I like about FE such as restricted wheel bearings, spec gearing, spec fuel, spec wings and spec tires but I'd like to see more flexibility in the spring and shock choices, wing angles, pushrod adjustment and brake choices. I also think some things like brakes, floor material and other wear items would be cheaper if open sourced.

[Marshall Mauney]

Good post, but a couple of things stand out...

Obviously setup has a lot to do with speed otherwise FC's wouldn't be faster than the more powerful FE which they are at many tracks.

Agreed that setup is clearly important, but how much slower do you think the FC would be on the FE tire compound?

Some think FE is cheaper to operate but I'm not so sure about it. FC can source parts from anywhere and therefore get them much cheaper vs buying from Enterprises, especially suspension and brakes. FC gearboxes seem to be more robust as well. The cost of FC development is what ever you want to spend from $0 to $unlimited and competitive pinto FC's can be purchased as inexpensively as $15k while a modern top of the line full developed FC is very similar in cost to an FE.

Look at the engine costs. What does a new Zetec cost vs. a new FE mill, and how often do they need to be freshened? I would also suggest that a new "state-of-the-art" FC will probably cost more than a new FE, though you are correct that an "entry-level" FE will cost more than an older FC - but the older FE will be much more competitive.

I think that when people compare operating costs in forums like this, they always reference their own goals and program. For someone who wants to run regionals and just have fun in a local series, an older FC can probably be run for less than an FE. For someone who wants to be competitive at nationals/Sprints/Runoffs, I'd bet that the FE will be significantly less expensive.

[La Scuderia Raggi]

What I was getting at in my original post was this. If one were to look at the FC class, decisions would have to be made as to Pinto vs. Zetec. With the Zetec option, it looks like you can add bigger wheels and go FA-to what good I don't know. Then there is the IRL pro option that further confuses the issue i.e. using certain cars to get the series going, then dumping on the original entrants after one or two years.
Marshall makes an excellent point in that if you want to run at the national level, in an FE, one only (funny term in racing) needs to make sure the parts are good and a good set-up is found. With an FC for national competition, it's the shock of the month (or week), engine tuning, the best aero package, plus the infinite parts that makes the variable combination count head towards infinity. Works for some and back in the old days when there were limited options it was fun. Add the time for data analysis to decifer all of that and how the average working competitor can find the time for all that is beyond me.....
By the way, with the addition of the Fit, FF is in the same boat, they just don't have the front and rear wing variables to dink around with.
Bottom line, with the harder tires, and more torque/hp as compared to an FC, the FE to me is a lot more fun when the loud pedal is mashed!!

[Bob Wright]

Test one of each and then think about it some more (hint-I know doing that changed a couple of driver's minds).

Read Chas's post again- he describes it pretty well. And, no there is generally not a shock of the month in FC, nor any difference between life or tuning of a Zetec and Duratec. The real key, as Chas properly states, is FC is a formula and FE is a spec class with all that implies.

IMO, the only choice between Pinto and Zetec is the cost of the car and what kind of racing you want to do; they (finally) have parity so its all about money and engine life.

You have to tune a FE just as much as a FC-prep at the pointy end is at least the same, maybe even more involved with the FE. You think there is no data aq on a FE car?

[Chas Shaffer]

Good post, but a couple of things stand out...



Agreed that setup is clearly important, but how much slower do you think the FC would be on the FE tire compound?



Look at the engine costs. What does a new Zetec cost vs. a new FE mill, and how often do they need to be freshened? I would also suggest that a new "state-of-the-art" FC will probably cost more than a new FE, though you are correct that an "entry-level" FE will cost more than an older FC - but the older FE will be much more competitive.

I think that when people compare operating costs in forums like this, they always reference their own goals and program. For someone who wants to run regionals and just have fun in a local series, an older FC can probably be run for less than an FE. For someone who wants to be competitive at nationals/Sprints/Runoffs, I'd bet that the FE will be significantly less expensive.

Hi Marshall,

There are plenty of FC guys who use the Hoosier 45 compound, it depends on the weather conditions and track. In some cases I've gone faster on the harder compounds.

A crate zetec new from Ford is $800 - $2500 depending on where you get it so rebuild/replacement is very cheap. Everything to put a create engine in an FC is bolt on and I don't have to send it to Enterprises to have it sealed. If you want to rebuild one QS and Elite typcially charge around $3k-$4k. Engine life is in the 8k - 10k mile range. I believe that's similar to the Duratec.

I'm really not trying to be arguementative, I like the FE cars but I'd like to point out the misconception about needing a new car to be competitve in FC. My 10 year old FC won the runoffs 2 years ago and is still easily capable of winning it this year. I believe the oldest FE in existance is 7 years old so an older FC is as competitive as an old FE. In fact the runoffs has been won by either a 2000 or 2001 VD for at least the past 7 years against new Citations, Pipers, Mygales and newer VD's.

As for parts of the week, doesn't FE have shock updates, gearbox updates and other required updates? I see used FE's advertised as haveing "all the upgrades". The biggest difference is if a new part comes along in FC we aren't forced to buy it but FE is. I sure saw a lot of FE's with gearbox issues after every session at the Runoffs in HPT.

I haven't seen anyone run a zetec as an FA for a long time but I see that as an advantage not a disadvantage. I've considered taking the restrictor plate off and running the FA map in my zetec at some regionals for fun. A 165 hp FC car would be wicked fun and would probably put a hurting on the FB guys as well. Additionally FC guys have 3 different pro series they can run in, I just don't see how that makes it a less desireable class.

Again I like the FE's and have considered getting one but I don't think its fair to paint the FC's as being so confusing or expensive. If I do buy an FE I'm sure I'll spend as much on it as I did on my FC for the runoffs, just in different areas.

[La Scuderia Raggi]

I'd like to thank everyone on this thread for their comments. Back in the '80's I had a Zink Z14 Super Vee. Ran it as an FC, but it sure was fun to put the 32mm chokes on it (as opposed to the 28's) every now and again and feel that punch in the backside. Those of you with a Zetec should at least consider it......

As we say on the motorcycle side of things, "it's not what you ride, it's that you ride!"