DefNder / PRI

[Robert Zecca]

.

[azjc]

It seems like the defneder site is down again. I think it is because of the impending litigation between Leatt and its former employees who started defender. Anybody hear anything on this. If you go to the Leattbrace website you can read about the lawsuit.

From http://www.defnder.com/



Why not call or wait 'till the 23rd before starting rumors???

[Robert Zecca]

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[Beartrax]

Which begs the question....where can we try on the Hans in New England? I live in Southern VT and spend the most time at Lime Rock. The shop at the track? Where else in New england?

Flat,
Are you familiar with HMS Motorsports? They sell the HANS & have a brick & mortor in the Boston area and they also have a website. That may not be too far from Southern VT. Furthermore, I have seen their trailer/store at NHIS - they support SCCA.

I mention this with no disrespect to Robert Zecca of Driving Impressions who wholeheartedly supports Apexspeed.

[cooleyjb]

http://defnderneckbrace.com/

is their current site that is up and running

The Leatt brace website information is dated in early December, so it is nothing new and I believe has already been covered in this thread.

[azjc]

http://defnderneckbrace.com/

is their current site that is up and running

The Leatt brace website information is dated in early December, so it is nothing new and I believe has already been covered in this thread.

Thought there was an other site, when I saw the date I didn't bother to check for it - thanks.

[stommelen]

Just to see what the opinions/experiences are in this regard: The G-Force SRS-1 device is rather affordable and, repeating a certainly accurate mantra, better than nothing. G-Force states however that the thing is not SFI approved; any idea about how far is its performance from the more serious devices? There should be some knowledge on this matter since I believe the SRS-1 has been on the market for quite a while. Thanks, stommelen
PS: Just to prevent some of the obvious comments: no, my neck is not worth the cost of a Hans (my lawyer' opinion may however differ in this respect ).

[Marshall Mauney]

Just to see what the opinions/experiences are in this regard: The G-Force SRS-1 device is rather affordable and, repeating a certainly accurate mantra, better than nothing. G-Force states however that the thing is not SFI approved; any idea about how far is its performance from the more serious devices? There should be some knowledge on this matter since I believe the SRS-1 has been on the market for quite a while. Thanks, stommelen
PS: Just to prevent some of the obvious comments: no, my neck is not worth the cost of a Hans (my lawyer' opinion may however differ in this respect ).

I look at this device early on and had a couple of concerns.

1) Why is it not SFI certified? If they have test data as they say they do, why couldn't they get a certification?

2) It only works with G-Force helmets. If that's what you use anyway, great, but if they don't fit you well.....

3) The bar that fits under the belts seems to me to be prone to slippage. If your belts don't come in at a fairly severe angle from below your shoulders, it would seem that the bar is not fully held in place by the belts, but will actually hang loosely below them.

4) I'm not comfortable with the height of the attachment points on the helmet. I can't say if this is a real issue or not (haven't seen sled test videos, but I feel more comfortable with the attachment points used by HANS/defNder. I don't want something that might rotate the helmet backwards.

5) Now that the defNder is available, the price difference is low enough that I don't see the benefit of going to something non-SFI.

[Robert Zecca]

I would recomend a device certified by SFI because I believe any month now you will hear that it will be mandatory by SCCA. The reason for this IN MY OPINION is the insurance companies will force SCCA to do this and not the SCCA mandating this. This only makes sense since most other organizations including PCA and NASA racing make it mandatory.

I use to sell the device by GForce and it is not a bad idea for the money and certainly better than wearing nothing but why spend some money now and may be forced to spend more later.

[cooleyjb]

I would recomend a device certified by SFI because I believe any month now you will hear that it will be mandatory by SCCA. The reason for this IN MY OPINION is the insurance companies will force SCCA to do this and not the SCCA mandating this. This only makes sense since most other organizations including PCA and NASA racing make it mandatory.

I use to sell the device by GForce and it is not a bad idea for the money and certainly better than wearing nothing but why spend some money now and may be forced to spend more later.

I agree with Bob that it's not a matter of if SCCA will start requiring, it's a matter of when. When they do that I just can't see them going outside of the FIA/SFI standards either.

[kishg]

just wanted to post a follow up on the defnder fitment. i am the customer that bob refers to and in deed when we tried the defnder on with the xlg zamp zr-3 helmet i purchased from bob, it was contacting the helmet when i did a full 90 degree turn from center. However, when i am cinched down with the belts in the car with everything adjusted, i have no issues whatsoever. here's what i posted on another forum:

"i just tried it out in the car and now that i am more familar with it, getting the belts routed on the wings and cinched tight is not an issue.. when the belts are cinched down tight, there's really no helmet clearence issue for me (my noggin in an XLG Bell R3 Sport in my car). i think the only remaining issue i have with it now is that i need to re-orient the helmet posts as they recommend so the QD works as intended. Sorry no video or pics. Well other than the ones steve took."

with regards to them closing up due to the legal issues, i certainly have no idea what will happen there but i can't say i am concerned about it. i have a sfi 38.1 legal device as mandated by the sanctioning bodies i care about (bmwcca, nasa and scca) and will continue to use it.

[kishg]

looks like another endorsement for it:

http://www.butlerbuilt.net/09_Storie...dorsement.html

[JimLill]

a few people have commented on the status of Defnder as a company.........

I called today to find out about getting a second set of anchors for my other helmet. Phone answered quickly, all seemed normal.

[Wren]

The reason for this IN MY OPINION is the insurance companies will force SCCA to do this and not the SCCA mandating this. This only makes sense since most other organizations including PCA and NASA racing make it mandatory.

The SCCA president called someone who posted in another thread and told them that it is NOT an insurance company issue.

[HNR Engineer]

Please refer to www.ndevice.com for futher updates and press releases regarding the legal proceedings against the creators of the defNder team issue restraint device.

Although due to interim legal parameters, questions specifically related to the defNder will not be able to be answered, but please feel free to use the ndevice.com forum for general questions related to safety etc.

We will make every effort to respond to the forum postings where we can.

Thanks and regards,

Grant Nelson.

[reidhazelton]

Sorry to bump a dead thread, should start a new one but I think there is relevant info in this one, so here I go:

A got a defender after the accident at the Sprints and went to work installing it. When these first came out, I emailed the company to see if they would fit in a formula car with reclined seating position. I was told that was exactly why they came out with theirs, to be adjustable and this was a main concern and selling point. I had been "meaning to" buy one for far to long now.

So, I put it on and got in the car. Felt good and not to bulky. Then I went to put my helmet on. It was not even close. If I sat normal in the seat and did not extend my neck to gain clearance, the helmet would hit the green (now black) colored bars. It was so far from fitting that when I had my helmet on I was staring at my mic and could see better out the bottom of the helmet than the visor.

So, assuming this was user error I went to talk to the Defender retailer at the Williams Race Development tent. Unfortunately he had just left. The Williams owner showed me that he thought loosening the pads should make it sit lower on my chest. It did, but by maybe .125". I know many apexspeed-ers have said it fits, but I cant see how it possibly could fit.

Did I screw up? I cant see how I could, it's pretty simple. I looked at emailing the company again but see no address or form of contact.

The Defender was returned.

Oh yeah, I also noticed that when the belts were tightened very tight as I like, the metal slider of the belt would be underneath the grean bars parts, and when I tired to get out they would get stuck. If I had to get out fast and in a panic, I don't know if I could. After a struggle I eventually got it unstuck, but boy...

[azjc]

I've been using the defNder with no issues in a 88 SF Reynard... but a couple of things:

Make sure you have adjusted the pads as per the tech note on their site. http://defnderneckbrace.com/images/D...ing%20rev2.pdf

Make sure the defNder isn't too far forward. This makes a BIG difference.

I sit VERY reclined so my 6' 2" fame will fit the car , so clearance issues are an issue with me. I was using a Simpson Bandit and it cleared, the new Bell Dominator I just bought also clears & it has quite a large chin spoiler.

[reidhazelton]

Thanks John.

I too noticed that it had to be pushed back to fit better, but still did not fit my helmet. That website link is what was included with mine. I loosened the shoulder pads, tightened them, and no usable difference. I really wanted it to work and tried what I thought I could to make it, and I just don't see how it could.

With your height I can't see how I would be more reclined.

[Matt King]

Have you tried a HANS or any other HNR to see if you have the same problem? In my FV, I had to adjust my shoulder belts to make sure the buckles weren't under the chin spoiler and make a couple suble changes to the way I sit in the car to clear my HANS. Also, if your helmet has a deep chin spoiler, that could be exacerbating your problem.

[Marshall Mauney]

I sit in my FE with an extreme layback position, and I am able to use the defNder with no problem. I had to loosen the shoulder pads almost completely, and the helmet (Arai GP-5K) doesn't fit properly until the belts are tightened down. Once I'm strapped in, though, it's fine.

[eight2ten]

Jim

Regarding your data sheet on different devices: You state 934 for Neck Tension for Hans at 0 degrees and 1117 for Dfender. The Hans seems to be 20% better in a frontal impact. Am I understanding this correctly? If so why would this be since to be the devices are very similiar in construction.

Thanks
Bob Zecca

I know this is an old topic, but I was doing some research into what people are saying about different products and thought I would add some into the mix.

Regarding the figures mentioned above and in ANY of the validating testing such as SFI where you can actually more closely compare results due to the same standard. You need to look at what variables in the test were the same and also what other data is not given (or measured).

What I mean by this is that the devices are tested to the same standard. A test of a sled with a CTD on it will produce a certain result in the measured area (neck forces for example) at say 70G. In this crash to get baseline data as there is no HNR device most of the force from the impact will go through the neck, hence a high/fatal score. If you were to test a foam ring you would get rid of some of the energy from the crash into this simple device and get a reduced but still possibly fatal number.

You could get what would be a false positive test by building a device for example that tethered to the helmet and to the seat as well that would give some really low numbers. But this is where the numbers don't have to be the lowest to be the best. As long as you are below the threshold in the baseline test then essentially you are doing what your device set out to do. That is lower/minimise the damage to the cervical spine.

Something that most are missing however is where the rest of the force goes. Whether you believe we were created or evolved there is a reason why humans (and animals) have multiple vertebrae to protect their delicate spinal column and nerve centres. You see the more you restrict movement not only is the chance of breaking the vertebrae more but there is a greater force that is going to go to the head and brain.

Here is a little experiment that I used with my kids when I was teaching them about brain damage. Hold an egg (unboiled) in your hands. Move it up and down in the air trying to keep your hand holding it but going up and down faster and faster. You can do this for quite a while with no damage to the egg at all. This is what you would call controlled acceleration and de-celleration. Now do it again but at the point when you have reached about as fast as you can safely go without losing control of the egg stop your hand suddenly. When done fast enough the egg will break.

Now that wasn't just to get egg on your hands you see even in HNR protection the rate of de-celleration is important. Too much and the egg (your head) will break as well which is not what you want. You see the force has to go somewhere and yes some will go into the helmet and some into the device and maybe into the surrounding car structure (not good) but if the HNR is giving a really low test score for the Neck Tension then the balance is going through your head. Which when you think of it as an egg (which it is similar to, with your brain surrounded by fluid) is why in some large crashes even whilst wearing a HANS the driver has ended up with swelling on the brain and in some cases death.

Please note there are a lot of other factors that are going to come into this such as other masses but you don't have to be a physicist to realise that the energy from the crash has to go somewhere and if you think you are doing the best thing by buying the device that some clever person has designed to give a LOW score, but doesnt really know anything about biomechanics as well as engineering then I will come and visit you in the vegetable ward.

Cheers,
Dwight

[Matt King]

Looks like Leatt has won some kind of arbitration against Defnder in SA:

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=38926

[DonArm]

Do they have a booth set up at PRI this year? I just bought one it'll stink if they are forced out of business.

[cooleyjb]

Do they have a booth set up at PRI this year? I just bought one it'll stink if they are forced out of business.

yeah, they're here

[Marshall Mauney]

Looks like Leatt has won some kind of arbitration against Defnder in SA:

http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/...?article=38926

Are there any lawyers in here who can explain what "arbitration" means in South African law?

I'd be rather surprised if a US judge would take their decision at face value without due process being followed in this country.....

[sracing]

In the news, the Leatt Corporation (manufacturer of the Leatt-Brace) has just won an arbitration award in South Africa against Karl Ebel and Grant Nelson (principles of the DefNder head and neck restraint). According to Leatt, the award permanently stops Ebel and Nelson from any commercial exploitation of Leatt’s intellectual property, which seems to say they will have to stop selling the DefNder. For the moment, the restriction is limited to South Africa, but Leatt is on record seeking enforcement of the award in the U.S. Just to let you know, we are still pursuing, and are very confident in winning, our lawsuit against the manufacturers of the DefNder head and neck restraint.

[mike g.]

In the news, the Leatt Corporation (manufacturer of the Leatt-Brace) has just won an arbitration award in South Africa against Karl Ebel and Grant Nelson (principles of the DefNder head and neck restraint). According to Leatt, the award permanently stops Ebel and Nelson from any commercial exploitation of Leatt’s intellectual property, which seems to say they will have to stop selling the DefNder. For the moment, the restriction is limited to South Africa, but Leatt is on record seeking enforcement of the award in the U.S. Just to let you know, we are still pursuing, and are very confident in winning, our lawsuit against the manufacturers of the DefNder head and neck restraint.

Jim,
when you say "our lawsuit" do you mean Sracing or did you copy/paste that?

[RussMcB]

It's interesting that Leatt doesn't offer something that looks like the DefNder. It makes me wonder why not (if they had a design for it).

[sracing]

Jim,
when you say "our lawsuit" do you mean Sracing or did you copy/paste that?

Nope not us. That was the quote from Hans.

Jim

[hbennett]

It's interesting that Leatt doesn't offer something that looks like the DefNder. It makes me wonder why not (if they had a design for it).

Ebel and Nelson used to be with Leatt before starting IST (makers of DefNder). Leatt has issued press releases they were debuting a new design. Thought it might be at this past PRI but not.

Howard Bennett
HANS Perfomance

[Speednix]

It seems the Defnder was based or copied from an older prototype at another company. This must be why some people are complaining about the fit and having to tweak it to get it to fit.

What is the background of the engineer at Defnder. It seems they just popped up out of nowhere with this design. Sounds very shady.

It is obvious it was stolen from the company when they left.

[azjc]

It seems the Defnder was based or copied from an older prototype at another company. This must be why some people are complaining about the fit and having to tweak it to get it to fit.

What is the background of the engineer at Defnder. It seems they just popped up out of nowhere with this design. Sounds very shady.

It is obvious it was stolen from the company when they left.

It seems obvious that you have never actually seen or used the defNder. it's an easy to use innovative product offered at a reasonable price point - that I know because I've been using one all year and bought it after carefully comparing it to other devices on the market at the time.

I congratulate defNder for bringing the price point for a quality HNR device down to a reasonable level that the average racer can afford.

As for any legal issues, I believe in the American concept of Innocent until proven guilty.

[Marshall Mauney]

[...]

[dc]

It seems the Defnder was based or copied from an older prototype at another company. This must be why some people are complaining about the fit and having to tweak it to get it to fit.

What is the background of the engineer at Defnder. It seems they just popped up out of nowhere with this design. Sounds very shady.

It is obvious it was stolen from the company when they left.

Our new friend, Steven from "Illionois" is a troll and won't be participating in this discussion any more. No need to respond to the baiting from him--he doesn't really matter.

[DB4 Tim]

Only good thing for trolls...barbecue them and put them on salads....less fat then Spam, and just as filling.

[JimLill]

I don't think the SA arbitration has any legal power over what happens in the US

[flat tappet]

Our new friend, Steven from "Illionois" is a troll and won't be participating in this discussion any more. No need to respond to the baiting from him--he doesn't really matter.

Illionois is just a stones throw from OOOhighOOO, I believe, Doug.

Seriously though....Thanks to all of you for enlightenment on the H&R issue.