FF hard tire opponents, your forum awaits

[TimW]

TimW,

A grooved AR made of soft rubber would be more than an intermediate, depending on the grooving. The set of Hoosier rains I bought, ahem, many years ago, were hand grooved. On that note, I do wonder if the thickness of the rubber (tread) is greater with a rain tire so as to allow for the deep grooves. I don't know...does anyone? If that was the case AR would have to make a new mold, adding to the costs of the tires.

No, softer compound than a normal slick with hand cut grooves is the definition of an intermediate. At least in europe where they are primarily used (be thankful its not our normal MO to carry 3 types of tires!). The tread depth will not be appreciably deeper coming from a slick mold. Perhaps some Pacific Northwesters who run them more often than prolly anyone in the states can chime in. In 2006 when GY wet fronts were unobtanium GY offered us 13" FSAE tires in a 065 compound that they would hand groove for us. But they were free to admit this was not really going to be a wet and at best a compromise. I don't see how this works in environments where we get flash thunderstorms where the track is drenched very quickly and its a scramble to switch the car to a wet setup. Perhaps it works for those with a perspective of where a rainy day is occasional passing showers but not in other climes.

I don't mean to be strictly critical here without a subsequent better idea, but I just don't see one with the AR 'wet' offering as GY/HS will go away from the wet business if they don't have the slick since they're barely in it now, IMO.

[EYERACE]

again.....only a moment

if a hard tire puts me behind F500's or worse yet the "thunder cars" i would favor being on a different tire.

[Bill Steele]

Responses to replies in order of appearance:

Bill,

As I outlined in a reply in the "Proposal..." thread, if AR were to get the contract I think they would have to raise their game, which would increase the cost of the tire. They would have to tighten up quality control, provide at track support and a knowledge base, and make a rain tire.

Tom Duncan

Tom, I love you like a brother but do we know the price will go up? How many times do we read someone's opinion and take it for gospel? Perhaps the inconsistent size, compounds, etc. between lots can be tightened up by merely getting AR to look at their manufacturing process? I will admit the nonsense the AR guy gave you about bead seat pressures being at the heart of their size issues from lot to lot was not encouraging.

As far as the rain tire issue, I will admit given the infrequent rain we deal with I am probably less sensitive to this issue than I need to be for a National tire. I am pretty sure if half our race weekends had some sort of rain, I would want rain tires that worked as perfectly as possible on my car setup. Out here, many take the occasional rain race as a novelty but certainly less serious than the normal dry race. So I understand and support the notion that any vendor that gets selected must supply an acceptable rain alternative.

As far as someone putting a number like .5 seconds on the cycle to cycle times for any tire, let alone an AR, well, I just plain disagree. This has not been my experience after I got to know the AR tire. As you know, I keep pretty detailed records.

As to those that have pointed out the obvious that we already have a class with a hard tire I have to say, excellent point. I really have been thinking about my tire budget for next season and have serious second thoughts about my decision to move to FF from CF. The racing in CF was as close (at least here in the SF Region) the cost about as low as it gets and still be racing. When I made the comment about a spec hard tires being an IQ test I was referring to myself and my numbskull move to buy that DB6.

To be honest, I love how cool that DB6 is, but I am already missing the no brainer costs of my Crossle. Maybe I will just go back to CF. My total budget for 12 races in CF will be less than my tire budget will be in FF.

Anybody want a really low time DB6, zero hour Loyning, needs a little cosmetic stuff to make it perfect, just ignore the invoices from your tire guy.

[Tom Duncan]

Allen,

You have brought up one of the best arguments against the hard spec tire rule yet...we already have a class for using the hard tire and getting its benefits. I will add that one to the list at the top of the thread.

Ouch, I can feel the hit, as I love my RF98 Van Diemen push-rod car (as Bill loves his DB-6) and its build/design sophistication, but I loath the money I spend on tires, especially when there appears to be an easy solution at hand.

TimW,

If a softer compound with hand cut grooves is not a rain tire how would you explain the tire I bought from Hoosier, that definately was a rain tire? Don't get me wrong, if this was used as a solution for a rain tire and it did not have the needed softness, thickness, and tread pattern then yes, it would not be a full rain tire and should not be accepted. But just because its hand grooved does not automatically mean it is not.

Bill,

You are correct in calling me on my statement "if AR were to get the contract I think they would have to raise their game, which would increase the cost of the tire." I should have said "...could increase the cost of the tire." To me it doesn't seem unreasonable that an increase in person hours to their manufacturing, distribution and support could result in higher costs, then being passed onto us. On the other hand maybe that could be absorbed by a higher number of tires being sold and made official by a stipulation in the contract to meet a price point.

However I do disagree with you in calling the idea that too much bead seat pressure could be contributing to dimensional differences "nonsense" in the AR. It has been clearly shown that one can easily change the dimension of the tire by doing just that, why would the same physics not apply when mounting?

You make a good point about the rain tire, if we ran half of our races in the wet I am sure we would give much more attention to that part of any tire deal. As is it we get maybe one rain race every couple of years (too bad, its really fun) so we don't think about it much. But for the sake of the national scene of FF racing I think we should.

Which brings up one of my pet peeves about the process we are discussing, and that is there are always two answers to any of the questions about the rules of our sport, "What is best for me", and "What is best for the sport". While you and I might not put much importance to an easy wet tire solution for our personal running, we can see that much of the country does. My feeling is the contracting should be required to offer a full rain tire on the same carcass as their dry tires.

The .5 seconds estimate (suggested difference between a first and second cycle AR) is from my own experience of the tire and also discussions with other users. So what is your estimation?

In our region if the arguments for a medium compound tire rule to stay in place prevail (or even go away and we go back to an open tire rule) I think we should still accommodate those that have FF's but want to run on a harder tire due to budget limitations by creating a subclass open to the AR133 and Hoosier R60A, at least for next year. As a regional championship we can do that, as we have done with the GY430 rule that has been in place for the last 3 seasons. Of the drivers (7 of the 19 that ran last year) I have interviewed all have been in favor of the idea (of running on a hard compound tire to reduce costs).

Tom Duncan

[Bill Steele]

Bill,

However I do disagree with you in calling the idea that too much bead seat pressure could be contributing to dimensional differences "nonsense" in the AR. It has been clearly shown that one can easily change the dimension of the tire by doing just that, why would the same physics not apply when mounting?

The .5 seconds estimate (suggested difference between a first and second cycle AR) is from my own experience of the tire and also discussions with other users. So what is your estimation?

In our region if the arguments for a medium compound tire rule to stay in place prevail (or even go away and we go back to an open tire rule) I think we should still accommodate those that have FF's but want to run on a harder tire due to budget limitations by creating a subclass open to the AR133 and Hoosier R60A, at least for next year. As a regional championship we can do that, as we have done with the GY430 rule that has been in place for the last 3 seasons. Of the drivers (7 of the 19 that ran last year) I have interviewed all have been in favor of the idea.

Tom Duncan

Tom, the reason I call the bead seat pressure answer to the inconsistent sizes from lot to lot on the AR tires nonsense is the problem is largely a lot to lot issue. In addition, the bead seat pressure used by most tire dealers tends to be pretty consistent. Finally, putting 50 lbs in a small tire alone doesn't do that much, you have to get it hot as well (leaving it in the sun with the high pressure). The inconsistent sizes on the AR tires from production code to production code is a quality control issue, not a bead seat issue. GY and Hoosier also have these inconsistent results on their bias ply tires, it is just smaller because they have better quality control. Anyway, this is a moot point because it is clear the AR will not be a National spec tire.

On the .5 second dropoff, without getting into things I have learned in the last season of keeping detailed notes, I can only ask you to go back and find out how many CF track records have been set in our region in the last 4 years on sticker tires. That will give you some idea of the scope of cycle to cycle dropoff nonsense.

On our local front. I just would rather not have yet another class, FFX? If we at the region level can't agree on a hard compound spec tire why on earth would anyone think it is a good idea to try and get one Nationally? Creating a class for every subset of tweak someone wants is what got SCCA to the alphabet soup nature of its run groups now.

Frankly, I am thinking maybe the SF region is about to lose one of its potential FFX drivers. I will say it again, anyone looking for a low time DB6? CF is mo betta.

[Tom Duncan]

Well Bill, the original idea was to allow some of the current FF drivers to run on the AR133 so they can spend less money and maybe attend more races, but every time it's discussed it is almost universally rejected with the argument it would dilute an already small group, which I suppose I have to agree with.

I think you are suggesting AR could be successfully encouraged to tighten up their quality/storage/distrubution control to address one of the objections to the tire. Is that correct?

Please keep the DB-6...I want to race you!

Tom

[TimW]

Responses to replies in order of appearance:

Dave,

The difference between cycle one and two with an AR is about 1/2 second, the 430 about 3/4-1 second, the 160 about 1.5 seconds.

Point #3 ("I have many times been able to get more useful heat cycles out of "soft" tires, because I have been able to run them until they were truly worn out, not just too slow/unpredictable to use.") I just don't understand...could you rephrase it?

So, I can't say what the differences between first and second cycles of AR133 or GY430 are, but I have run GY160s and can say the first to second heat cycle difference is much much less than 1.5s. Perhaps I'm cognizant of the published scrubbing sequence in the GY technical manual more than some, but the difference between 1st and 2nd heat cycles is within the tolerance of what gets left on the track by most amateur drivers. Its generally been very small, provided you've done the homework to keep one end of the tires from working harder than the other and not overdriving them on their first cycle.

Perhaps my experience isn't as relevant since its obvious I likely wouldn't be as fast as Kautz/Coello/Treadway even if I put new pre-heated tires on every lap while they waited for me to do so, but the rest of the regulars in CenDiv I'm generally in their run pack consistently on first and second heat cycle tires with minimal difference between whichever tires I choose. Generally, if I'm putting first or second heat cycles on at the race I feel I've got as good a grip level as anyone...

I think what Dave is saying is if your car is good the soft tires do not degrade as fast as there is less sliding on one end or the other or overall. You can wear them to the tread indicators with consistent results if you can drive just to the adhesion limit. But, this is both hard to do with the setup as well as a driver so most people don't experience this. With a hard tire you're more likely to be overdriving the tire to go fast which can reduce its grip in an uneven way shortening the sets truly useful life to about that of what a well setup car will do on a soft tire. So what then would be the gain?

Tim

[Bill Steele]

Well Bill, the original idea was to allow some of the current FF drivers to run on the AR133 so they can spend less money and maybe attend more races, but every time it's discussed it is almost universally rejected with the argument it would dilute an already small group, which I suppose I have to agree with.

I think you are suggesting AR could be successfully encouraged to tighten up their quality/storage/distrubution control to address one of the objections to the tire. Is that correct?

Please keep the DB-6...I want to race you!

Tom

Tom,

I am not going to sell the DB6 anytime soon. It took me too long to get Neil to tell me how much he wanted for it to sell it now.

As far as the region's spec tire rule, I am kind of all in on the subject. I have already budgeted the $12K in my mind for the current GY R430 "spec" tires rule, so anything that gets agreed that lowers that number is all upside.

I am going to keep an eye out for a nice Crossle though. Who knows maybe Richard will decide he wants to sell me back my old car.

The truth is most people don't know squat about running on hard tires, thanks to Richard Pare and a few others I learned a lot and am sold on the value proposition of the concept; unfortunately you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Horses are notoriously stupid, don't you know.

OK, here come all the horse lover flames.

[Daryl DeArman]

What is wrong with picking and choosing what races to run? I have always looked at the schedule and picked what races I can afford to run and what I can not run. Sure I would like to run every race, but I run the ones I can afford and do so with good equipment so I will have a chance to win.

Nothing is "wrong" with that approach. However, some people like to run all the races in good equipment. You say you'd like to run them all but you can't afford to do so with equipment good enough to give you a chance at a win.

IMO that is the very best reason to support a low-cost spec tire.

[thunderracing91]

I skimmed through most of this thread but didnt read every single one. One thing that i didnt see mentioned was tire dope. The spec tire is all good and well but what about yall thats going to dope your tires? Am i wrong to say we will be back to square one? Them circle track guys have a vast variety to choose from that is undectectable on tests.................just a thought

[Darren Brown]

Nothing is "wrong" with that approach. However, some people like to run all the races in good equipment. You say you'd like to run them all but you can't afford to do so with equipment good enough to give you a chance at a win.

IMO that is the very best reason to support a low-cost spec tire.

Daryl

What you say is valid. I personally would rather run fewer races with my car on new soft tires than run a couple more races on a hard spec tire. The other issue is the spec part. I already said my view point on that because on my history with Goodyear. I do not want to run a spec AR,Hoosier, Firestone, or whatever. I want to support the people that have supported me for the last 15 years.


Tom

My comment on good equipment was not referencing club ford or spec tires. I was speaking in the present and what tires are needed to win races. If I should up with 6 session 160s, than that is not good equipment. Instead I will skip that race and run the next two races with the new set I bought from the money saved skipping the first race

As to the questions about more people coming out and running resulting in more revenue. I just do not believe it. That maybe be true, but I have not seen many guys running only a few races a year because of their tire budget. Unless 20 people per race show up, it would not make a huge difference in the profit the regions make.




For what it is worth, I ran eight nationals this year (excluding the run-offs), and used 4 sets of tires. That is not a new set every race and I was more than competitive with three and four cycle old tires. Albeit I did have to work on the set up a bit more and drive a little different. My point is new soft tire are not a necessity, but they do help and feel great .

Darren

[John Robinson II]

Well Bill, the original idea was to allow some of the current FF drivers to run on the AR133 so they can spend less money and maybe attend more races, but every time it's discussed it is almost universally rejected with the argument it would dilute an already small group, which I suppose I have to agree with.

I think you are suggesting AR could be successfully encouraged to tighten up their quality/storage/distrubution control to address one of the objections to the tire. Is that correct?

Please keep the DB-6...I want to race you!

Tom

Tom,
Why will this stop guys from trying the tire and running more races, because they wont get a trophy?
There is a movement here in the SE to get a group of FF to run on GY 430 and I am taking part in this. I plan on running them in preperation for RA.
John

[John Robinson II]

I skimmed through most of this thread but didnt read every single one. One thing that i didnt see mentioned was tire dope. The spec tire is all good and well but what about yall thats going to dope your tires? Am i wrong to say we will be back to square one? Them circle track guys have a vast variety to choose from that is undectectable on tests.................just a thought

I can tell you from vast experience, tire dope will not amke a tire any better then when it was new, it really only adds back some of the chemicals that are lost in the heat/cooling process. Yes, there are chemicals that will make the rubber softer, but it is not track friendly.
John

[Daryl DeArman]

I do not want to run a spec AR,Hoosier, Firestone, or whatever. I want to support the people that have supported me for the last 15 years.

Fair enough....maybe you can convince Goodyear or Phils or whoever has supported you to supply Goodyears 160 for $125/each as the SPEC tire and compound for FF and CF.

[Darren Brown]

Fair enough....maybe you can convince Goodyear or Phils or whoever has supported you to supply Goodyears 160 for $125/each as the SPEC tire and compound for FF and CF.

Now that is a idea I can get behind , I like round numbers though, how about a $100 for the tires? Don't leave out Bruce, lets see if he can get Hoosier to do a price match guarantee.

Can we spec the entry fees to a $100 as well ? That would bring more cars to the track, not just FF's.

Darren

[jim morgan]

John,

Why are you buying hard tires for a car that never runs.

[Bill Steele]

For what it is worth, I ran eight nationals this year (excluding the run-offs), and used 4 sets of tires. That is not a new set every race and I was more than competitive with three and four cycle old tires. Albeit I did have to work on the set up a bit more and drive a little different. My point is new soft tire are not a necessity, but they do help and feel great .

Darren

I know I have been pretty sarcastic at times on this thread, but I say this in all seriousness, to run 8 Nationals competitively on four sets of GY160's total is a pretty nice accomplishment.

Although we will likely be running on GY430's next season, if I could get 2 flag lap capable races per set, I would be so thrilled my blood pressure on the hard compound subject would drop about 90%.

[Darren Brown]

Thanks Bill,

The whole reason I can get that tire life is the way I run qualifying. I will only run until I get the lap I need to start on the front row. My normal time on the track for qualifying is probably around 10 minutes or less (on tracks I know). That saves a lot of time on my tires. The other thing I do if I get held up getting around some cars, I run the rest of the lap at 80% until the last corner so not to burn the tires down on a lap I know will be slow.

Is that strategy for everyone, probably not. I do think a lot guys burn their tires down for no reason just to finish the session.

Yes I know if I had a hard tire I would not have to worry about all this, but this is part of the fun for me.


Darren

[Bill Steele]

Thanks Bill,

The whole reason I can get that tire life is the way I run qualifying. I will only run until I get the lap I need to start on the front row. My normal time on the track for qualifying is probably around 10 minutes or less (on tracks I know). That saves a lot of time on my tires. The other thing I do if I get held up getting around some cars, I run the rest of the lap at 80% until the last corner so not to burn the tires down on a lap I know will be slow.

Is that strategy for everyone, probably not. I do think a lot guys burn their tires down for no reason just to finish the session.

Yes I know if I had a hard tire I would not have to worry about all this, but this is part of the fun for me.


Darren

Darren,

I understand totally, I spend most of my time thinking about how to use my tires more intelligently. Guys I race against walk by my pit and shout, "Love your tires!", kidding me. While I am sitting there, cleaning the pickup off, looking for problems, looking for what they are telling me about how the car is handling, how I am driving. It is another dimension to racing, to some degree something you do within yourself.

Last year after I started to figure out the setup on my car (Crossle CF) and started running pretty good, I looked around and noticed some of the fast guys were getting lots of cycles out of their tires. I set about learning my tires and how to make them last as long as possible, while going ever faster.

I am in the fortunate position I can afford new tires if I choose, but the challenge to learn the tires to go faster and not be buying new tires was so much fun. In the process I learned a lot about tires, setup and driving at max velocity while still loving your tires. That is what struck me about what you had done. It does add another dimension to racing, this tire challenge.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the results. It helps keep things in perspective, reminds me what I am doing in this racing thing.

BTW, I was running on hard tires when I did all the above. So it is the same. The only difference is the number of cycles you get between new sets. Love your tires!

[DanW]

Darren,

I understand totally, I spend most of my time thinking about how to use my tires more intelligently. Guys I race against walk by and say, "Love your tires!", kidding me. While I am sitting there, cleaning the pickup off, looking for problems, looking for what they are telling me about how the car is handling, how I am driving. It is another dimension to racing, to some degree something you do within yourself.

Last year after I started to figure out the setup on my car (Crossle CF) and started running pretty good, I looked around and noticed some of the fast guys were getting lots of cycles out of their tires. I set about learning my tires and how to make them last as long as possible, while going ever faster.

I am in the fortunate position I can afford new tires if I choose, but the challenge to learn the tires to go faster and not be buying new tires was so much fun. In the process I learned a lot about tires, setup and driving at max velocity while still loving your tires. That is what struck me about what you had done. It does add another dimension to racing, this tire challenge.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the results. It helps keep things in perspective, reminds me what I am doing in this racing thing.

Bill, I really appreciate your advice to those of us trying to learn the game!

[Bill Steele]

Dan,

The really cool thing about a newcomer who is smart is you teach them everything you know and then when they start going faster than you, they move over and let you by.

Remember this last lesson It is really important!

[Darren Brown]

Bill,

Question for you. Once you set the car up the way you liked it, how much longer did the tires last compared to before you really concentrated on tires? Is this the 430s or the American Racer tire you are talking about?

I forgot to finish my post, the first tire guy I dealt with used the line "love your tires and they will take care of you", funny that people were saying that to you.

thanks
Darren

[mblanc]

The truth is most people don't know squat about running on hard tires,..............

Wrong, I disagree.


Lots of CFF guys know LOTS about running a hard compound tire, the FST guys do also.


I would like to hear from the fast and especially the mid-pack CFF guys that run where there has been a R60/GY600/AR tire rule. (most places for more than a decade).

Did everybody see the CFF race pics and vids from the ARRC race?

Don't tell me an R60 isn't a real race tire, but it lasts, and lasts.

I bet IF those guys bought tires for the ARRC event, they are still on their cars halfway through the season next year. Think any of the FB guys are doing that?

As far as what I'm doing with my 3 cycle R60's from P2 at the FF40th? bagged and hiding in the basement, waiting to see the EWC schedule, so I can decide which event(s) I'm going to bolt them back on, and take a shot at Phil and Dave with.

Lets hear from guys running hard tires, with experience.


as far as being behind the F500's? Look at last two years at Topeka, already happened.
Sure glad we've got more topend at RA though.

[Bill Steele]

Bill,

Question for you. Once you set the car up the way you liked it, how much longer did the tires last compared to before you really concentrated on tires? Is this the 430s or the American Racer tire you are talking about?

I forgot to finish my post, the first tire guy I dealt with used the line "love your tires and they will take care of you", funny that people were saying that to you.

thanks
Darren

Darren,

The tires I was talking about in my post above are AR 133's. Before running CF on AR's I ran FF on GY160/430's where it always seemed impossible to run up front on a set that had more than about 3 cycles. More on that later.

When I came to CF, the first season I spent learning to set the car up (chasing your tail in circles every time you changed a single thing like ride height, etc.) and also driving the car on the hard tires, it is different. As John LaRue so aptly pointed out, when the track conditions start to turn a little, the work load goes up pretty fast on hard tires.

After I got going and could keep the fastest guys in our region within range, I started to notice most of them were not putting new tires on each race or so. In fact the fastest guy in the class would often buy a single tire or a takeoff to run the rest of a weekend on a set of tires he had ran for many. many races. When I came into CF I carried all the normal notions that a tires fastest lap was its first and it was all down hill from there, so I was buying tires way too frequently.

That is when I decided I needed to learn a lot about tires in general and specifically a lot about how to make the tires work to their optimum and also how to keep them working to their optimum. I spent a lot of time talking to people like Richard Pare, Ron Chisholm, the guys in the region that ran fast and also got a lot out of their tires and then set about a strategy to manage my tires. This included really getting in touch with setup (most guys think setup is all about lap times, but you can run many different setups to yield a fast lap, but probably only one of those will treat the tires best), how I drove the car (especially in certain corners where the tires were under the greatest stress) and also in the case of the AR's what a given set (or pair) was telling me about themselves (AR tires are a little inconsistent, so you also have to get to know the specific tire a little, some will work better at Laguna (low grip, not very abrasive), some better at TH (high grip, very abrasive), etc.) I also learned some processes I do to the tires between races that really seems to help them stay fresher longer and most importantly helps in getting the older tires up to temp quickly in challenging temps/grip. This makes a big difference (thanks Richard Pare).

Anyway, what all this did was get me really in touch with my tires. It had the added benefit of also getting me in closer touch with my driving, setup and approach to running sessions I never had before. To many, all this would probably seem to be all too much, taking something that is relatively simple and over complicating it. For me, it was a satisfying learning experience, one I hope translates this season as I move back to FF and will be much more challenged to get even 2 races out of a set of stickies. I will also be running against the Porter cars that are basically the same cars Neil has won 3 Runoffs with (not to mention Tom Duncan, Dave Stillwell and a couple newbie's that will be coming on strong).

The problem with all these debates is guys want to keep it simple and get an simple answer. It is like the guy that says, "hard tires won't bring more drivers to the class", or "it is the cost of tires that are driving people away" or "open wheeled racing is in decline because of Tony George" or... The truth is always infinitely more complex and will not be answered with a simple one liner. Kind of like the mess we call Washington, everyone wants a bumper sticker answer to a problem that can't even be quantified in an unabridged dictionary sized tome.

Anyway, I hope somewhere in that rambling post, I answered your question. Wish me luck next season while I will be trying to "love my softer tires!" Ha!

[PK]

Following up on Marc Blanc's request for input from CFF drivers who've run hard tires, though I certainly don't qualify as a hard tire opponent. For reference, I ran FC in Nationals for 4 years before getting into CF which I've run for another 4 years so far where I generally run up front.

We run the Hoosier R60 tires. I generally consider heat cycles 1-6 to be pretty similar and very good with little fall-off in lap times. Cycles 8-12 are ok, and the tires are acceptable if the competition isn't super tough. After 12 cycles, the car is sliding around more, and in my case, the rears go south before the fronts, so the handling gets a bit 'busy'. After about 16 cycles, there is still substantial rubber on the tires, but I stop using them.

One comment from earlier seemed a little backward from how I feel about it. I worry a lot less about setup with the CF than I did with the FC on sticky tires. Part of that is the relatively less sensitive chassis of the older car, but part of that is that I just don't worry about the tires. In the FC, one session with the setup significantly off could burn up the front tires if it understeered to much. In the CF, if one end starts sliding more, that tends to generate more heat in the tires at that end and increase the grip (rather than send it over the edge as on the soft tires).

I chose CF when moving from FC largely because of the spec hard tire. I buy a little more than 1 set of tires per year (4-5 mostly double regional race weekends), and I spend a lot less time on car setup.

Just my $0.02.

Phil Kingham

[Bill Steele]

Wrong, I disagree.


Lots of CFF guys know LOTS about running a hard compound tire, the FST guys do also.


I would like to hear from the fast and especially the mid-pack CFF guys that run where there has been a R60/GY600/AR tire rule. (most places for more than a decade).

Did everybody see the CFF race pics and vids from the ARRC race?

Don't tell me an R60 isn't a real race tire, but it lasts, and lasts.

I bet IF those guys bought tires for the ARRC event, they are still on their cars halfway through the season next year. Think any of the FB guys are doing that?

As far as what I'm doing with my 3 cycle R60's from P2 at the FF40th? bagged and hiding in the basement, waiting to see the EWC schedule, so I can decide which event(s) I'm going to bolt them back on, and take a shot at Phil and Dave with.

Lets hear from guys running hard tires, with experience.


as far as being behind the F500's? Look at last two years at Topeka, already happened.
Sure glad we've got more topend at RA though.

Marc,

Thanks for taking one sentence out of context and going off in a completely different direction. My point was guys that have not raced on hard tires (like I was before I came to CF) don't know what a great deal these tires are and how they can actually increase the competitive landscape. Of course anyone running competitively in a CF group understands running on hard tires as that is probably one of the major reasons they run in such a group, it is an incredible value.

To Phil's point that you can burn up a set of stickies quicker on a car like a FC, I think that is why many of us advocate for a spec hard tire. On the notion that setup is less important because the cars are less sensitive to setup changes (in CF), while I would agree a Crossle or similar vintage VD is generally less sensitive to setup changes than say a modern push rod car with a very stiff chassis, to get maximum life and maximum speed out of a hard tire, setup is critical.

Anyway, I am all done on the subject, no cheers, please! I fear as Greg Mercurio always says, we are just pissing in our wetsuits anyway.

[Tom Duncan]

...is Phil's statement: "In the CF, if one end starts sliding more, that tends to generate more heat in the tires at that end and increase the grip (rather than send it over the edge as on the soft tires)."

Maybe this is why newbies aren't flying off the road with a "hard tire".

One of the caveats I hear often from race tire professionals is the main problem with a hard compound tire on a FF/CF is most drivers can't get sufficient heat into them. One crew chief I spoke with suggested the old Goodyear R600 compound was really designed for a 3000 pound car, so with an 1100 pound car the tire is being underworked.

It's so true if you are on softies and have one end of the car that isn't working that end will very much drop off like a stone at some point. Been there, done that.

Tom Duncan

[Tom Duncan]

Branching off from a suggestion by Marc (mblanc) in reply #63 of the "...your forum awaits" thread, I have started a new thread inorder to "hear from those that are running a hard compound tire on a 'modern' push-rod or rocker FF (we know they work fine on CF cars) as that is the type of car being addressed by this effort."

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36991

Tom Duncan

[DanW]

[quote=Tom Duncan;235037
Maybe this is why newbies aren't flying off the road with a "hard tire". .......

Tom Duncan[/quote]

I would disagree with that. I was too tentative for the first few races and couldn't get much heat into the tires. What little heat I did get, I used to pick up everyone else's swarf til I had a good layer of pickup that turned to snot as soon as it got a little more warm...

Once I started getting more agressive the swarf pickup was reduced. I learned to clean my tires between events which helped a bunch. I still do more farming than I should...

Edit: Even though I have had my share of spins and lockups, the ARs don't seem to flat spot.