any one out there with some inside info on the decision? i have my eye on a DB4, and it's off to vintage, if it's not approved.
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
Excellent post! Personally, I believe a huge part of the race is getting there. It’s where preparation meets opportunity. SCCA already has classes that you can turnkey and drive.
I can offer a parity to this very same conversation playing out today in another series. That series has already taken the leap into the very thing is just being discussed right now with FF. All I will say is it is pure chaos and the car counts are dwindling more and more.
Last edited by kevin keller; 10.18.09 at 7:42 AM. Reason: typo
since we have known each other about 30 years you know, for me, it's not a question of money. i've thought it's time for a modern motor for the last 10 years. plus i've always been in favor of taking the motor out of the weekend equation as much as possible....ric
but for engine issues, JT would have won every race for the last few years
The Board of Directors approved the Club Racing Board recommendation to accept the 1.5-liter Honda Fit engine into the class, offering a modern, low-cost alternative to the venerable 1600cc Ford engines moving forward. The proper class name has also been shortened, simply to “Formula F” or “FF.”
The new engine is an addition, rather than a replacement. SCCA recognizes that many racers will retain the Ford engine configuration that has been used for 40 years. It is the intention of SCCA to maintain competitive parity between the powerplants for many years to come.
Ken
For Immediate Release
SCCA Board Approves Noteworthy Club Racing Changes
TOPEKA, Kan. (Oct. 18, 2009) – The Sports Car Club of America Board of Directors made several noteworthy changes to the Club Racing program at its Oct. 16-18 meeting. In addition to its regular business conducted, changes were made regarding the Formula Ford class, minimum driver age, Showroom Stock vehicle age limits, Spec Miata tires and the classes eligible for the Runoffs.
Formula Ford
The Board of Directors approved the Club Racing Board recommendation to accept the 1.5-liter Honda Fit engine into the class, offering a modern, low-cost alternative to the venerable 1600cc Ford engines moving forward. The proper class name has also been shortened, simply to “Formula F” or “FF.”
The new engine is an addition, rather than a replacement. SCCA recognizes that many racers will retain the Ford engine configuration that has been used for 40 years. It is the intention of SCCA to maintain competitive parity between the powerplants for many years to come.
Minimum Driver Age
The Board approved a proposal to lower the minimum age requirement for participation in Club Racing to 15 years old on a conditional basis. Drivers must have previous racing experience (ie. karts, midgets, etc.) and must be pre-approved by their Divisional Licensing Representative. These drivers will be under strict scrutiny of event officials. Full details are requirements will be available in the December Fastrack News.
Showroom Stock Age Limits
The Board approved to extend the sunset rule in Showroom Stock from 10 years to 12 years, giving all cars an additional two years of eligibility beyond their year of production.
Spec Miata Tires
The Board approved language to complete the transition from the Toyo Proxes R888 to the Toyo Proxes RA-1 tire in National Spec Miata competition.
Beginning January 1, 2010, both tires will be eligible for National competition. On the third National race weekend in a respective Division, only the RA-1 will be permitted for dry and wet use. SCCA recognizes that race weekends may include multiple Nationally-sanctioned races.
Both tires will be available through normal Toyo Tires distribution methods.
National Championship Runoffs Classes
The Board made language changes to the General Competition Rules (GCR) to include all 29 National classes in the Runoffs beginning in 2010. It also set a minimum number of cars required at the Runoffs (10) to recognize a National Champion. A full story on the subject is available here: http://www.scca.com/newsarticle.aspx?news=3805.
Full details of all the business conducted at the October Board meeting will be available in the December 2009 Fastrack News, which will be available at SCCA.com Nov. 20.
Peter Calhoun
Motorsport Manager- Michelin North America, Inc.
Swift DB1-86 FF1600 (bye-bye 3.12)
2009-10 SCCA CM National Champions
The word is, it was passed 8 to 2 in favor of the Honda, with 3 abstaining from vote.
Everyone will now need one of these (right Coop?)
http://www.speedecor.com/hoachekiguoi.html
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
Well, that's over, thank god. Now we'll find out what fun it will be to make to radically different engines perform axactly the same....both on the dyna and on the track!
Well 4 out of 5 ain't bad .....my faith in the SCCA and its' proccesses is improving.
Good luck on the parity thing.....
Well,... I truly am glad it's over.
So now it's time to pony up boys! It's time to put your money where your mouth is!
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
-Peter Krause
1984 Tiga SC
www.peterkrause.net
"The Driver is the Greatest Performance Variable in the Racing Equation"
I am willing to bet we have more pages of discussion, than we will have conversions in the first year.
How this is going to be managed and executed is going to be critical.
Strong communication and transparency is vital to something as touchy as this. It would be great is someone directly involved in the process could commit to a monthly update in FAQ form. That would curtail allot of the speculation that is bound to happen should a vacuum develop.
AMBROSE BULDO - Abuldo at AOL.com
CURRENT: Mid Life Crisis Racing Chump/Lemons Sometime Driver (Dodge Neon)
CURRENT: iKart Evo Rotax 125 Kart
GONE: CITATION 87/93 FC - Loved that car
GONE: VD RF-85FF , 1981 FIAT Spider Turbo
For those of you disposing of an old Kent, I'll take it off your hands, and only charge a minor disposal fee.
Bob McCown
Van Diemen RF81 #472 (2008-2013)
Next ?
2009 ARS CF
"I barked twice." - Enzo (the dog)
The immediate answer to your question is this. HPD will now go off and make production versions of the intake manifold, exhaust manifold, ECU and other bespoke parts. When those are available, HPD will bring the complete engine to Quicksilver to be run on their dyno. The final ECU map and restrictor size will be set based on this testing. A CRB representative (most likely me) will be present to supervise this testing. This engine (or possibly multiple engines) will be offered to other engine builders for dyno testing so they can confirm the relative performance of the FIT and Kent engines.
Because it will take some time for HPD to make the production castings, it will be a while before the testing can take place. (We're talking months here, so don't expect further information for quite a while.)
Dave
Now if they will go ahead and approve the Ford Duratec motor, old Kent motors will be a dime a dozen for us vintage folk
After this weekend, I would be shocked if a Duratec will ever be installed into an American FF.
I wonder if Ford Racing (et al) are stamping their feet right now.
Bob McCown
Van Diemen RF81 #472 (2008-2013)
Next ?
2009 ARS CF
"I barked twice." - Enzo (the dog)
Let's hope that we can all take the high road, Ford can show us that they were serious about maintaining their presence, and everyone can move forward. Most of the current FF competitors should likely have several rebuilds in their future before the non-Ford racers get their numbers up.
Good luck to everyone in all camps!
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Peter Calhoun
Motorsport Manager- Michelin North America, Inc.
Swift DB1-86 FF1600 (bye-bye 3.12)
2009-10 SCCA CM National Champions
All is not lost. The argument has been very stressed, but it’s not been clear what problem we have been solving. Now we have the Fit issue off the table, let’s now figure out what the problem is with FF – lets aim before firing, maybe a novel approach
I think I am missing a trick here. Doing $12K+ conversions to old FF chassis is not going to bring in a host of new kids as has been suggested it might. There are limited kids interested in doing FF as we knew it. If kids want to get up the ladder they need to do FF in Europe, where both Duratec and FF 1600 thrive, or a professional class in the USA. Not only are there other classes more exciting if you want sexy (the new FB’s are really sexy and will be quite economic when they get the oil systems worked out), with new FF’s costing apparently $70K, few kids are going to be interested. The Fit is not going to change that. Reality is that FF 1600 is a club class and should be marketed as such.
Those people who want to buy an engine, run at peak revs for 5 years without putting a spanner on it and roll out to the Nationals every year with a chance of winning, can convert to the Fit. We will end up with a half dozen or so Fits and the top guys (or in the main “geezers”) will continue to run the Ford engine if it makes a few more horsepower. If this is how we end up, with the Ford 1600 guys way in the majority, the Ford guys will push to have the Nationals limited to Ford and the Fit can be another class in the same race, or if Fit is so popular that dozens of FF’s get converted at $12K+ a pop, make no mistake, Honda will push for their own race. This mess of potage will be particularly apparent if we have the Duratec as a choice as well (let’s see how those economies work).
I love my Ford, I have been driving them on and off since 1967 – my first FF, a Russell Alexis built by Jim’s son-in-law, a chunky young mechanic called Ralph Firman, had a 1500 engine (superseded two months later by the 1600 – deja vous all over again). The Cortina based class will live on if properly managed; it thrives in the UK and remains the cheapest bang for the buck by far in club racing. We have the pistons, cranks, rods and now block issues resolved, if we want the class to be sustained as a fun class, as Mike suggests, what we need to do now is get the tire issue resolved and move on.
BB2
Last edited by Bernard Bradpiece; 10.19.09 at 10:07 PM. Reason: Remove font details
BB2
what cars will these conversion kits be made for all that accepted the kent or would each make/year of chassis require a different kit?
Better to have raced for a day...
than been a spectator for life!
The engine/ECU/intake/exhaust will be standard. You'll need an input shaft and adapter plate that will work with your particular gearbox, which is most likely either a Mk 9 or LD-200. I think Steve Lathrop is in the process of designing them now. You'll also need motor mounts that will be unique to each chassis, just as the motor mounts are unique to each chassis today. If you have a mid- to late-90 Van Diemen with the support that runs across the top of the engine, you'll likely have to do some design and fab work...at least until someone puts out a kit for the particular chassis.
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
Larry Oliver
I can speak for the cars that I know something about. I have drawn up the conversion for the Z10. I think that the Z10 is representative of many cars of that vintage. For the Fit engine to fit in a Z10, I need to make a new adapter for the Engine to the VW case that is slightly shorter than the standard Ford/Titan/Webster adapter common to almost all '70s vintage FFs. Taylor will be making a new input shaft to fit the Fit clutch and the release bearing setup will require an adapter to a Tilton unit. All of those parts should be under $1000.
The motor mounts will have to be chassis specific. For the Z10, I am planning to not use the side mounts, but adapt to the front mounting points on the engine and mate those to the roll bar bulkhead. In the case of the Z10 this is the easiest way and is a big improvement over the original side mounts.
For the Zink Z16, I will do an adapter that is a variation on the Z10 but provides the extra mounts necessary.
For later model Citations, using the staffs gear box, I plan to either use the Honda adapter for the BD6 or do one that is the same thickness so we keep a common input shaft. For my new cars, with the LD200 gear box, I am making a 1/2" thick adapter that will mate the Honda Fit to the Ford bolt pattern.
I think that the three adapters I plan on will cover most cars. The Fit engine is narrow but is nearly the same length from front to back as the Ford when the Ford is measures from the cylinder head to the back of the block.
The Honda Fit engine dressed ready to install is price competitive with an good used Kent motor. I think that $12,000 will more than cover the cost of the motor and the installation in most cars. As a car builder, the Honda Fit motor reduces the cost of a new car substantually. Plus you can promis competitive power.
Thanks for the info Steve, that helps. Based on speaking to some expert sources, I've started putting my budget together for conversion of my 1993 Citation FC ('87 Citation Frame designation). Below are the seed items on the list:
Off the shelf pieces" - which means someone is making (or planning to make)them and they will be the same for someone with same car.
--- engine
--- bell housing adapter (Staff Box)
--- front motor mount
--- input shaft
--- wiring harness
--- high pressure fuel pump
--- starter
The following are custom (Specific to my conversion):
--- tail pipe
--- bodywork mine is not stock anyway
--- clutch slave cylinder
--- possible engine trunnion modifications
As conversions are done, I'll plug in actaul costs and part #'s.
Being that I'm converting from FC, I'll also need to swap out wheels, get rid of wings, change springs, get shocks re-valved.
The Engine comes first, these other items can wait. I'll run FS till I get them done.
Last edited by racer27; 10.20.09 at 10:34 AM.
AMBROSE BULDO - Abuldo at AOL.com
CURRENT: Mid Life Crisis Racing Chump/Lemons Sometime Driver (Dodge Neon)
CURRENT: iKart Evo Rotax 125 Kart
GONE: CITATION 87/93 FC - Loved that car
GONE: VD RF-85FF , 1981 FIAT Spider Turbo
When I saw the Fit, I thought it was a LOT taller than a Kent. So it is probable that new rear body parts are likely to be needed.
Paul
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
I don't race FF and since starting out in 1986 have only run spec series / cars (Skippy, SRF and now FE). But after reading 20 pages of posts I just don't fully understand the logic.
It's a known fact that there are differances between a good kent and a ok kent. Loosly defined as regional and national motors. So if a regional guy wants to compete on the national level he has to spend money on his lump to get it to that understood and accepted level of performance (assuming skill and car prep are the same).
So, one could argue that if you placed the Fit at the national level of peformance (HP & Tq) both could compete for a national race / tiltle. Again, if the regional guy wanted to compete he'd spend money on his kent or get a Fit.
Or, you could place the Fit at the regional level (both regional kent and Fit would be at a disatvantage to the national kent). But the'll still be a regional kent that can't beat the regional Fit. So the regional guy will spend mony to get an atvantage.
It's like circular logic.......
It's all about longevity.
As major Clipton said...."it's madness....madness"
Lee
LJS Motorsports
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