Pinto / Zetec Parity 09

[Blair Robertshaw]

Hi guys,

well we have watched this thread with great interest. I am sitting here wondering if we have a good iron head Pinto or an averge iron head Pinto so we will pull down our horsepower pants and ask;

is this dyno report one from a stong iron head, average or weak Pinto?

[DaveW]

Hi guys,

well we have watched this thread with great interest. I am sitting here wondering if we have a good iron head Pinto or an averge iron head Pinto so we will pull down our horsepower pants and ask;

is this dyno report one from a stong iron head, average or weak Pinto?

I have no reference to Elite's range of HP (different dynos give different readings on the same engine), but I'm guessing that this is a very good engine. Almost 145 HP is quite good. If you were under 140, it would need some help.

[Blair Robertshaw]

Thank you Dave,

I know dynos vary from operator to operator and type of dyno's etc but as we are new to FC we never had any idea as to where our motor was in so far as average, good or bad and it seems it's a real hope and a prayer to get many people to post there numbers on the site.

So from what we have been reading are we safe to assume we have a "Good Iron Head"? I guess one of the things we were wondering if there is much performance left in the head.

It's easy to throw away $ on chasing a pony or two but as I say we are new so we just dont know.

Thanks again Dave and all.

Respectfully,


Blair Robertshaw

[DaveW]

...

1. So from what we have been reading are we safe to assume we have a "Good Iron Head"? I guess one of the things we were wondering if there is much performance left in the head.

2. It's easy to throw away $ on chasing a pony or two but as I say we are new so we just dont know.

Thanks again Dave and all.

Respectfully,


Blair Robertshaw

1. Yes, IMO, you have a "good" one.
2. At this point, it seems to me that unless you want to very seriously attack the National racing scene, just run what you have until you feel that you've maxed out the potential of everything but the engine. Get the cam reground and the flywheel lightened when you do the next rebuild.

[Rick Iverson]

Cripes sakes Fellas, seventeen pages and I am more confused now than ever.

Let's start the list detailing what we want, debate it, and make it happen. Lest we forget, this is your club. We're really not talking about long division here.

FC
1. Lightened starting ring
2. New cam





Zetec
1. Larger restrictor
2. Better map

[Peter Horvath]

Just left the SEDIV Annual Convention.

One piece of news. The proposed rules package passed the BOD.

Pintos get light flywheels and new cam.
Zetecs get 1340 and new map.
all cars will have 1200 min weight.

Rick, I think you missed page 13.
This was one of the most pro-active threads I've had the pleasure to participate in.
I wish it wasn't over. There's not much to add.
But for what it's worth, here goes:
I didn't send my vote to the Board. I was conflicted.
In the end, after all the input, I think Kniffen said it best. To paraphrase, 'let's just go faster'.

[Rick Iverson]

Peter;

Thanks Bud. I must have nodded out in trying to wade through War and Peace here.

Iverson

[racer27]

Was not planning on upgrading the flywheels, but upon engine disassambly, ours was discovered to be toast (Warped and heat cracked). Elite has new prepped flywheels in stock, for $550 w/ring gear. Make sure you specify if is 110 or 130 tooth.

[rickb99]

..... Elite has new prepped flywheels in stock, for $550 w/ring gear. Make sure you specify if is 110 or 130 tooth.

Okay, somebody needs to explain to me why a 'preped' flywheel is $550?

The question is based upon:

1.
Being able to buy a 12 pound flywheel from Esslinger (2.0 liter) for $359 (2009 price).

OR

2.
Esslinger flywheel, pressure plate and disc weighing (combined) 11.5 pounds for $759

What am I not understanding?

http://www.esslingeracing.com/catalog/page26.pdf

[Dennis McCarthy]

The price probably has a lot to do with how many are sold.
I'd guess if Elite were selling a few thousand or even a few hundred a year,
the price would drop substantially. The reality is Steve is probably only
selling a few a year.

[Mark H]

Yeah remember when this rule came out...oh ...quit complaining its just a few bucks..a cam, shave your flywheel and add LEAD? $550 HMM?

[Bob Wright]

read the rule very carefully. I believe it specifies a 9.5 lb flywheel, singular. You can be sure what you get from Steve is legal...other choices may not be.

[rickb99]

read the rule very carefully. I believe it specifies a 9.5 lb flywheel, singular. You can be sure what you get from Steve is legal...other choices may not be.

I'm not sure but, I think if you read the rule carefully it specifies 10.5 pounds. The initial suggestion was 9.5 but I think engine builders were concerned about survivability.

But, lets assume it's 10.5. What are you saying?

1.
It's gotta be exactly 10.5 pounds or 14 pounds and nothing in between? Somebody already had Ivey machine a flywheel and with that one, he wasn't keen on going lower then 11.0 pounds. Are you saying that's illegal?
2.
Never questioned the legality of anything from Elite.

[Purple Frog]

The weight is a MINIMUM weight. You can run a 25 lb. one if you desire.

[Dave Gomberg]

Yes, it is a minimum, and it is 10.5 lbs.

Dave

[FC63F]

Mark H,

You are exactly on point - lets see $550 to $600 for the flywheel + another $350-$400 for the cam regrind, heat treat etc - plus install, transportation etc

so we get parity for say $1K - Heck of a deal

David Keep

[Purple Frog]

Look at it a different way. For about the price of a set of stickers you'll go faster than ever before, and for a lot longer time than new tires last.

Actually a pretty good racing deal.

[kea]

Open up....wider. wider, the pill for 80% of the class keeps getting larger!

[Purple Frog]

Keith, Keith, Keith... You don't get enough sunshine in your world up there in the tundra.

The class goes through upgrades, it has for 25 years.

A simple example... Diffusers were allowed to extend past the rear axle centerline back in the 90s.
Resulting panic: OMG, everybody will have to run out and buy new diffusers.
Reality, some people are still buying the shorter diffusers from you.

It's not mandatory you use the recently added Crower rods, you can use the Olivers, you can use the original stock cast iron ones. It's a choice.

It's a choice if you want to upgrade to the lighter flywheel.
It's a choice if you want to run a '05 VD, or a 84 Reynard.

You choose how fast you want to go, and how much you want to spend.

Some choose not to run 84 Reynards, with cast rods, Berget tires, and short diffusers. Some do. Both are great choices.

If one doesn't like choices, well then Enterprises offers two great classes of highly competitive cars to race.

[RacerDave51]

Froggy, don't forget those spiffy new upgraded wings & things... (Keith--just teasing...)

[kea]

Frog,
We only had 17 pages and it was slowing down, so I thought I would throw a camshaft, I mean, a little gas on the fire.

[RussMcB]

Moving the goal posts via rules changes is not the same as finding faster ways to get to the (unmoved) goal post.

I can't really think of a valid reason for changing rules to allow cars to go faster. Any new introductions should be restricted to current performance levels.

Let's hope SCCA decision makers are learning from these mistakes in FC.

[KevinFirlein]

Russ I dont really disagree with you but you have to keep one point in mind. Alot of drivers in FC, well for that matter all SCCA classes, are constantly complaining about the mix of cars / classes thay have to race in these days. As if mixed groupings is something new but i digress. With that in mind part of the reason everyone was brought up to a faster spec and not down to the original spec was to help FC guys with their gripes about having to race with cars that they precieve are faster on straights and slower in corners.

[dc]

New thread on the topic of overall SCCA Class Counts, Numbers and Participation has been split off and can now be found here.


Back to the regularly scheduled FC bickering about new cams and flywheel weight.

[BR21]

Has anybody heard of anyone or driven themselves, a Pinto that has the new cam shaft and flywheel combo? If so what are the reports please in comparison to the old configuration? Looks like by the time a guy is done he's in for about $1500 -$1750 skins!

Respectfully,

Blair Robertshaw

[BillJohnson]

Drove at TX World a couple weeks ago with a light flywheel, but not with the cam. We didn't have our Elite flywheel yet - just chucked an old flywheel in a lathe and turned it down. Stalled the car leaving the paddock the first time. The loss of inertia is real. I slightly noticed better pull off corners, but really noticed the improvement at the end of the straights. The car gains revs quicker. Had to upshift into fourth in two new locations. Then I hit the nitrous and the damn thing went airborne. I went thru the fence and drove back on the highway, rejoined the race and still won easily. I'm glad I don't have a Zetec or aluminum Pinto - those guys are toast this year.

[BR21]

Sounds like a Joe Tanto story .

So with the lighter flywheel and the better performance in view are you going to add the new cam? And what weight did you machine it down to Bill? Just curious

Were there any Zetecs around for a comparison?

Thanks Bill for your reply BTW.

Respectfully,

Blair Robertshaw

[Peter Horvath]

Drove at TX World a couple weeks ago with a light flywheel, but not with the cam. We didn't have our Elite flywheel yet - just chucked an old flywheel in a lathe and turned it down. Stalled the car leaving the paddock the first time. The loss of inertia is real. I slightly noticed better pull off corners, but really noticed the improvement at the end of the straights. The car gains revs quicker. Had to upshift into fourth in two new locations. Then I hit the nitrous and the damn thing went airborne. I went thru the fence and drove back on the highway, rejoined the race and still won easily. I'm glad I don't have a Zetec or aluminum Pinto - those guys are toast this year.

Bill, you put your wings on upside down.

[BillJohnson]

We learned that trick in the Bud Light wind tunnel...

Seriously, there was one Zetec at TX World (Julia Dawson) and our times were comparable all weekend. She had alternator trouble in the second National and unfortunately DNF'd.

[Peter Horvath]

...and our times were comparable all weekend.

'Nuff said.

[racer27]

Got my Flywheel yesterday from Elite ... to replace warped prepped stock flywheel. Setup for 110 Ring Gear and 7.25 " Tilton.

[GrandMarnier]

So the Runoffs are over, and it looks like parity may have been achieved. Anyone care to revive this debate or comment?

I think the motors of the upper echelon are longer an issue looking at the results...

[Wren]

So the Runoffs are over, and it looks like parity may have been achieved. Anyone care to revive this debate or comment?

I think the motors of the upper echelon are longer an issue looking at the results...

I don't think you can tell much from the runoffs, especially considering the huge differences in wing packages between the cars.

That said, there seems to be less complaining right now.

[ChuckU2]

That said, there seems to be less complaining right now.

Wrong time of year...wait until January or February when everyone has nothing better to do.

[GrandMarnier]

I don't think you can tell much from the runoffs, especially considering the huge differences in wing packages between the cars.

That said, there seems to be less complaining right now.

I think there's less complaining becasue people are preoccupied....

The differences in aero between the cars while visually signifigant would seem to be open for debate... Ask the Arms Up guys if thier(beautiful) swan neck rear wing mount and compact dual-plane wing was that much better than the (somewhat)conventional VD rear wing that Niki ran or the Radon wing on the KHill car. Everyone has an opinion in these matters, and some of these things are obviously correct viewing all the cars, but this isn't a discussion about aero packages.

I'm only pointing out that in my opinion the lack of engine choice being a factor in the national championship points to parity achieved. Aero wouldn't make a difference if we were arguing about motors....

[BrianT1]

In my opinion things seemed pretty equal at the Runoffs but that is just one race. It was nice that fuel was not an issue.

Let's wait until next year now that SCCA is planning to be more strict on the fuel policy. Then we will see how things really shake out at all the nationals other than Road America.

Brian Tomasi

[jnortonjr]

The laps times didn't look THAT much different from the Sprints so why is it necessary for guys to run any other fuel?

Niki and Revere were sub 13's for qualifying and the overall race pace seemed similar. Is it really an advantage to run $30/gallon fuel, re-jet and make gear changes?