Rookie racer + FSV = Good idea?

[mdman26]

I am a noobie road racer who is about to take my second SCCA drivers school. I love open wheel and was 99% certain of buying a F500 car due to the reasonable price and ease of maintenance. Then I saw a Tui FSV on ebay and have become positively obsessed. I love the looks and am seriously thinking about the purchase. It's ebay item# 190252548556. My intentions are not to do much competition for at least a couple seasons, just track days (my home track, Summit Point, will only allow open wheel cars at track days if the driver has their SCCA license). I have a decent working knowledge on auto repair, but am no master mechanic. I'd like to find something fun, reliable, and relatively inexpensive to run. My questions are:

-How much regular maintenance/rebuilds do these cars need?
-Are parts impossible to find?
-Is this too much car for a rookie?
-Would a VW dealership be able to service the engine?
-Am I just plain nuts to go this route?

Thanks in advance for all your help.

Chad

[mdman26]

More info on the car (from the previous owner):

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/oth...51557941ss.htm

[Rick Kirchner]

In the interest of full disclosure, I've lusted after this car for years. Having said that - DO NOT BUY THIS CAR - especially for SCCA competition. First of all, it's one of the prettiest formula car designs ever, and you'll have to butcher it up to meet current roll bar specs.

Second - You would have to run FS. The wheels and tires are way too big and it's the wrong engine for both club and vintage competition in FC or FSV.

Third - it's a tub car, and nearly pristine. All it would take is for one guy who's a little impatient in the braking zone to force his way by and the tub will be toast - there's no sidepods like on modern tub cars to soak up the damage.

Fourth - you want to get a lot of seat time at low cost, in a forgiving and easy to repair chassis - and a car of this age and technology level is not the way to do it. Plus - it will cost you an additional two grand to get it out to the east coast.

Club ford or CFC calls.

Just my two cents.

[RussMcB]

My advice is similar to above. If you want to own a very cool car and occasionally drive it fast, and you can win it for a low bid, go for it. But if you want to race wheel to wheel and enjoy racing in competition, find something that will be very reliable and will let you concentrate mostly on driving and less on the car.

It is a cool car.

[Stan Clayton]

Lots of good advice here, my friend...but if you don't take it, we'll all understand!

In the meantime...from the common sense department, here is an '84 FC on ebay that would be a great starter formula car that's close to you and tons easier on the wallet. Just as fast if not quite as handsome.

Reynard FC

[Rick Kirchner]

I started with a '72 Royale FSV, a tub car. After 14 years of restoration one of my friends said "congratulations - you now own a brand-new 30 year old car that nobody knows anything about anymore".........

I shoulda bought a FF, but the price was right - $1500! it only took another $14K to get it race worthy!

[mdman26]

I figured the responses would be going down this road, but I certainly appreciate the feedback. Looks like I'll have to continue to lust from afar and look at more practical formulas. Thanks again!

Just as a FYI, what's the consensus on the approximate value of the car?

[dc]

Something else to consider, too... your local track day group might also have an issue with a Novice SCCA Competition license. Without a full-Comp license, they might not let you run—especially with a monster like that.

I started my driver's schools with a decent FC, which is enough to have you be one of the fastest cars at your driver's school, and still get a good really scare once in a while. At that point, the car is still WAY faster than a new driver. I don't know if I would suggest starting out in a car faster than an FC, but that's just one guys opinion.

[problemchild]

Question: Would a VW dealership be able to service the engine?

Nope! The engines were grenades in all but the hands of the real experts. I watched a friend with 25 years of VW experience try to maintain SV engines for a customer. It was a disaster despite his experience buiding 100s of FV and VW hotrod engines. Sometimes they would blow up (flywheels come off, sparl plugs blowing out of heads, etc) before the car even left the shop. Buying parts would be a challenge, nevermind putting them together

Not that people seem to check, but the engine configuration does not sound vintage legal.

[Rick Kirchner]

To be vintage or SCCA legal one would have to ditch the superflow heads, reduce the displacement to 1700cc, and change the carbs to 40mm. You could get away with the big displacement motor - it's not like there are a lot of wingless SVs running (I know of only three - Marc Crocetti, Charlie Schmidt, and Jerry Urban - all west of the mississippi) - but the carbs and the heads are kind of a dead giveaway.

Car is of the vintage where they still ran TY3 motors, although longevity would be much better with a TY4. They're still just a VW, but a highly stressed VW and require a lot of detail work so that they stay together at 7500 RPM. In the day, guys used to do a lot of flycutting of the heads and machining valve pockets in the pistons to get the compression ratio up. That weakened the pistons and caused the heads to crack all the time. They used heavily modified stock rods too. That's because in typical SCCA fashion, you had to use the stock pistons and rods. Nowadays, everybody runs a high-performance rod like a Carillo or Oliver, pistons designed to bump the CR, and they don't cut the heads.

Are you sure Summitt Point only allows SCCA licenses on track days? Most places will take SCCA, NASA, any VMC club vintage license, POC, and BMWCCA.

[todcp]

They are all correct. You would be better off going CF or FF. Also the wing cars like CFC or FC are a bit much for noobies.
There are some nice FF's in the classifieds including my own.

After asking and listening like you are wisely doing I decided CF was a great bang for the buck and a terrific way to learn. I agree with you on open wheel as well. I considered ITB for a bit and I am very glad I went open wheel.

Tod

[TeamFRD]

the approximate value of the car?

Changing it from red to white dropped the value about $3000. Not as lust worthy.
I spoke to PO when he was selling it to acquire the wide wheels for my solo FSV.
Too bad the listing does not include any recent results - Solo or otherwise.

[Clyde]

You stated that the Summit Point Raceway was your "Home track" I would suggest you visit the Gasoline Alley portion of that track and look up Formula Haus, the education you will receive is priceless and will assist you in making a good decision as to your Formula car racing. In addition there are other Competition licenses that are allowed to run on "Track Days" OH yes, the Formula Haus info is FREE!

[Steve Demeter]

1. the motors were not grenades if you put the correct rods in them ... As in carrillos.

I raced one of these that was new in 1978, I bought it in 1981 and when I quit racing it in 1995, still had the original crank, pistons, cylinders. The cams were a weak spot, but I found a place that would master one of a Bertils cam and sell me all I wanted for about $69.00 each. Changed them every year.

The heads wore out because of the number of valve jobs done on them and thus ly having no seats left. It is very difficult at best to put nes seats in one of those heads and have them stay.

I did ruin 2 heads and one piston when the Datsun (the stem was 1mm smaller than the VW stem) exhaust valves I used had heads break off. Solution: change em every 15 races at the cost of $8.00 each.

For the last 6 years I had the car, I used the same $15.00 clutch disc from the local auto parts house.

The flywheel and starter and clutch were all original and never repaired or rebuilt and still worked fine.

Cheapest racing I have ever done.

Now I also had the help and guideance of Tom Pomeroy, the genius that figured out how to make legal rods that would last before Carrillos were legal.

But do not try this yourself.

Aside from the issues with the car, chances are that the hoop or the cage will not meet the GCR and you will have to spend $$$ to make it legal and in the process ruin the asthetics of the car.

That is why I sold my Lola.

BTW It had over 100 races in the logbook when I sold it.

[rickb99]

I'll say it one more time.. and NO WE DO NOT HAVE ONE!

Beginner, looking for a good open wheel car to learn in. Wants CHEAP maintenance and parts readily available. Looking for reasonable 1st time acquisition costs. Can live without wings. Wants to go 'pretty fast', Learn car control. If well driven will be chasing the lead FF's from just slightly behind. A car reliable enough to do days and days of 'track days'.

LOOK AT FST!