25 Year Rule

[Purple Frog]

I was going to start writing to Phil and Mike and other Directors.... but that isn't my style. I say start it on Apexspeed first, then write the BOD.

I propose a rule change:

If a competitor enters and competes in 25 or more consecutive Runoffs, and wins in her/his class in at least three of those Runoffs, then she/he should be granted one entry to the Runoffs during a following year that she/he did not qualify to attend through the normal competition procedure.

Of course I want this rule to be effective this season.

[EYERACE]

just who, right now, would benefit from this proposed rule?

[Purple Frog]

One of the leading technical contributors to this site, who for over eight years has not hesitated to write up the right way to do things. Generous with his help to us wannabes and newbies.

[rickb99]

If a competitor enters and competes in 25 or more consecutive Runoffs, and wins in her/his class in at least three of those Runoffs, then she/he should be granted one entry to the Runoffs during a following year that she/he did not qualify to attend through the normal competition procedure.

Of course I want this rule to be effective this season.

You can call me the nut that broke the SCCA bank. But, I think anybody who has competed in 25 (maybe even just 20) consecutive runoffs should have a FREE entry for life. The only stipulation being he/she has to have a valid National license and qualify within 120% of the pole sitter.

Now that's an incentive to make the run offs and would get this years (she/he) in because if Frog thinks he/she is worthy of that recognition.. then she/he is!

And as THIS is the year SCCA is looking for incentives to attend, this is INDEED the right time to add this.

Simple as that.

EDIT:
I recall a comment. I think I know who this he/she is and YES get it done. GO SCCA this is a good incentive.

[RobLav]

Is this DW?

[Purple Frog]

Dave is trying to make it to the Runoffs. He has made 30 so far, with 7 wins. He wanted to keep the streak going.

But, his Zetec coversion is still in Indy. Certainly Dave never dreamed last year when he left the Runoffs and dropped the car in Indy that the conversion would still be in vitro. It's real close.

Dave and Sherrie are hoping to travel like 4 weekends in a row, starting with Grattan, to try to qualify. I'm thinking the odds of four finishes with a new untested car could be a problem. Why wait til the plan fails to raise the flag?

Last time I checked the third word in SCCA was "club". I know 3 years ago about 150 of you pulled together to get me through a Runoffs I certainly will never forget. So I figured I'd stir somthing up for Dave. He's actually a bit shy, and not strong on accepting charity, much less asking for any. But if their little marathon attempt fails to get them into the show, I think the club should let them in on principle.

[Dave Welsh]

Mike

I see that Dave is entered for the Pocono double national.

Can some contingency plan happen to have a backup car available should Dave succumb mechanical issues at Pocono?

[DaveW]

Hey, all (especially Froggy!), thanks for the kind wishes and offers of help!

If all goes well, we will (just barely) make the Grattan race in a week and a half, the Pocono double the next weekend, and Gingerman the weekend after that. We WILL need some luck and for Murphy's law not to be enforced to do that.

As some of you probably know, I extremely dislike thrashing to get ready - that's a recipe for problems - but we're going for it until it's proved impossible.

BTW, Sherrie and I have run 33 Runoffs in a row and 36 over-all as of last year, so it would be nice to keep the streak alive.

On the other hand, if we don't make it, the money we save not racing much or at all this season will pay most of the Zetec-conversion costs, and we will have time to prepare the car to my standards.

As Froggy says, I do not like to ask for any kind of special treatment or exemptions - there are others who may deserve it at least as much, and I don't consider myself to be a special case, just because it's me.

It'll be interesting to see how this evolves (either making it without a free pass, or whatever else occurs).

So, again, thanks for the offers of help, and the push to get me an exemption.

[Bill Steele]

If a person wins the US Open golf tourney, they get an automatic invite for the next ten years.

If they win the Masters, they get a lifetime invite and an honorary membership in Augusta National.

If a guy that has won 7 SCCA National Championships doesn't get a lifetime invite to the runoffs the rules need adjustment (in this case, on an emergency basis, they could call it Dave's rule, or the "what were we thinking for not doing this year's ago" rule).

[EYERACE]

Eye 4 1 Uhhh...gree

[Steve Demeter]

1. IIRC, as recently as last year there were requests for exceptions and free invites.

Don't know how they ALL turned out, but IIRC Chas did not get his approved and had to thrash like hell to get enuff races in and look at the result. Could be a good omen for DW.

2. There have been numerous instances in the past where an exception to the rule was made, this one would not be out of line with those at all. Most of the guys I recall getting the exception did NOT have a record anything approaching Dave's. So IMO he is more than deserving.

3. There is a Citation in Dayton Ohio that just might be available if Dave is desparate enough. Although probably not set up to his standards, I will brag and say that the preparation is impeccable.

[Chas Shaffer]

1. IIRC, as recently as last year there were requests for exceptions and free invites.

Don't know how they ALL turned out, but IIRC Chas did not get his approved and had to thrash like hell to get enuff races in and look at the result. Could be a good omen for DW.

2. There have been numerous instances in the past where an exception to the rule was made, this one would not be out of line with those at all. Most of the guys I recall getting the exception did NOT have a record anything approaching Dave's. So IMO he is more than deserving.

3. There is a Citation in Dayton Ohio that just might be available if Dave is desparate enough. Although probably not set up to his standards, I will brag and say that the preparation is impeccable.

Thanks for bringing this up Steve. I did ask for an exception to the 1 start rule last year. I had 3 finishes and plenty of points but crashed during qualifying for my 4th start and destroyed the car. I was turned down and in retrospect I'm glad I was. It cost me a bunch of money and time I would have preferred to use fixing the car but it would have tainted the win. I'll be the first to agree Dave or anyone else who has supported SCCA at that level deserves a lifetime pass but since the rule isn't in place yet I'd like to see Dave get qualified so no one will begrudge him. I know first hand of people at the runoffs who thought I received the waiver and were bad mouthing me behind my back. It was worth the grand or so I paid to do one lap and officially qualify.

As I told Dave a few weeks ago over dinner, if my car was assembled it would be his to use. If the conversion isn't done I hope he takes you up on your offer to use your Citation. That's darn good karma. If the car gets torn up (it happens) I'll be the first to donate to the rebuild fund. If he can't get qualified of course I'll support the petition.

[rickb99]

I would hope at least ONE person at each of the 3 venues DW is going too could 'stand tall' and be sure he has a backup set of wheels.. That's all it takes.

[Chris Fox]

Dave, if you have problems at Graten and Pocono looks kinda bad, please contact Randy C. and me. Don't want to make promises without checking, but I do think there's a chance of coming up with a loaner car.

[Steve Demeter]

Car torn up???

Chas bite your tongue

[stonebridge20]

My shop (fully stocked) is 2 hours from Pocono. I'll be at Pocono (and lend a hand if needed) but if theres a problem, I'll hand Dave the keys to the front door and give him directions.

Mike Agnifilo
#20 DB6 FF

[captaineddie1975]

Sorry for this stupid question but does one have to do the four Nationals in the same class to qualify for the Runoffs or only do four nationals?
Ed

[Dave Gomberg]

A. Invitations to the SCCA Runoffs

Invitations may be issued to the highest placing drivers in each Runoffs-eligible class of the National Championship point series held in each division.

As a minimum, a driver shall have been classified as a starter in at least four (4) National Championship events in the current race season, of which two (2) shall have been in his or her Division of Record, and a finisher in at least three (3) National Championship events, and qualifying in the same class (or classes) for which their entry is accepted, but they may drive any car eligible for that class.

Note specifically the phrase: and qualifying in the same class (or classes) for which their entry is accepted,

Dave

[EYERACE]

why not 20 years..........that's still a lot of time and money too

[Tony Sleath]

We're at Grattan this weekend and when we left today there was no sign of Dave yet. Hopefully he makes it for tomorrow to at least get the race in.

[DaveW]

Didn't make it to Grattan. We took the car home Saturday (finally), but it still needs more work. We won't make it to Pocono either.

[Purple Frog]

I chatted with Dave some this evening. As most of you that have ever met Dave know, he is one serious competitor. He hasn't gone to any of those past 33 Runoffs where he didn't believe he had a fighting chance of winning the whole burrito. He has no intention of attending just to "attend". It's not his style. If he goes, he's going to try to win.

That said, he's adjusting his thoughts towards not going this year. Even if he had an invite, his budget does not exist to do all the testing it would take to really be ready with the new zetec, especially the cost of that test week prior to the Runoffs. He is thinking he might better apply his budget to shaking the new car down some this year, maybe even a few races, and then hit the ground running early next season.

He noted that one factor weighing heavy in the background is that if the zetec is truly at a disadvantage to the pinto, then maybe he wouldn't have that "fighting chance" at Topeka, and to make the effort and expense to only be in the 'b' class is not what he wants to do. Obviously, after spending a lot of time and money converting the Citation, he has great interest in a resolutiuon of the pinto/zetec equity issue.

All that said, maybe we should still push for the rule change so i can use it in 2037.

[Dennis Valet]

[rickjohnson356]

Not sure what Mr. Valet is saying by post # 23, but the car looks very familar!!

unless that is DaveW driving, but he has a yellow helmet, from what I remember.

[Mike B]

He noted that one factor weighing heavy in the background is that if the zetec is truly at a disadvantage to the pinto, then maybe he wouldn't have that "fighting chance" at Topeka, and to make the effort and expense to only be in the 'b' class is not what he wants to do. Obviously, after spending a lot of time and money converting the Citation, he has great interest in a resolutiuon of the pinto/zetec equity issue.

Um...didn't a Zetec finish a very close 2nd at the Runoffs last year? Pretty sure it was in a Citation chassis, too.

[DaveW]

Um...didn't a Zetec finish a very close 2nd at the Runoffs last year? Pretty sure it was in a Citation chassis, too.

Zetecs finished 1 & 2 (Chas in a VD & John in a Citation) last year. However, Niki had us all covered by a bunch until his trans broke. And the aluminum head is another factor.

However, the main reasons I will likely not be doing the Runoffs this year are:
1. I didn't qualify - no nationals due to car being not ready in time, and I don't believe in asking for an exemption in this circumstance.
2. No time to optimize the car for the Runoffs
3. Expense of going to HPT for the Runoffs
4. Car still not done - it will need at least a few more weeks of work to be ready (mechanical detailing, body fit detailing, painting, etc.)
4a. I am taking the necessary time to thoroughly detail the car so it should not have problems once it is ready to run races. For those of you that don't know me, I am a bit of a perfectionist about the mechanical aspects of the car. If I do the homework, it pays off in the long run.
4b. I do not enjoy flogging on the car to meet a deadline (once we're at a race, it's a different story - we'll do what it takes to repair, etc.), plus that sort of rush job leads to shortcutting some jobs that will have to be done over later, even if they don't cause major problems.
5. And finally, Sherrie is not a fan of the Kansas weather.

[LAJ]

Hi Dave & All

Randy is John Fergus's Crew Chief and alround prep guy and here is what he has to say about the Aluminum head issue.By the way John set a new track record at Grattan Nat. with the iron head.
Lee
(GO Dave !!always one of my favorite drivers to watch!!)
I will always remember you and Mark dueling it out at Nelson!! what a race!!

(quote)
Thanks Lee, the gears were right on! First time at Grattan and we had a nice time, we really enjoyed the camp ground like atmosphere. John and Corey said the track was really fun to drive. We cooked out Friday night and the piece and quiet was nice. They put on a great event and we are putting it on the calendar for next year It was a strange weekend for engines. Corey did 1 lap on Friday and the engine lost all power, spent the rest of the day putting on a new head gasket, in between running John. Saturday John did 1 lap and his engine started to knock, so I spent the rest of the day putting his old engine back in, between running Corey.

It turned out to be a good test (a lot of work). Friday we ran the Alum head engine and then changed back to the cast iron head engine for Sunday. Car set up, weather and track conditions were the same. We were able to run minimum weight for each head and we ended up running identical lap times. Bottom line (IMHO), the aluminum head is not a must have item.

Randy

[mmi16]

5. And finally, Sherrie is not a fan of the Kansas weather.

How one can live in NE Ohio and not be a fan of weather anywhere else is beyond belief. Amongst the areas of the country I have lived....the Cleveland/Akron/Canton area has to be the worst....Kansas is definately an improvement.

[DaveW]

How one can live in NE Ohio and not be a fan of weather anywhere else is beyond belief. Amongst the areas of the country I have lived....the Cleveland/Akron/Canton area has to be the worst....Kansas is definately an improvement.

You've got a point there - but what I was referring to at HPT is the relentless 20+ mph silt-saturated wind.

[DaveW]

...the main reasons I will likely not be doing the Runoffs this year are:
1. I didn't qualify - no nationals due to car being not ready in time, and I don't believe in asking for an exemption in this circumstance.
2. No time to optimize the car for the Runoffs
3. Expense of going to HPT for the Runoffs
4. Car still not done - it will need at least a few more weeks of work to be ready (mechanical detailing, body fit detailing, painting, etc.)
4a. I am taking the necessary time to thoroughly detail the car so it should not have problems once it is ready to run races. For those of you that don't know me, I am a bit of a perfectionist about the mechanical aspects of the car. If I do the homework, it pays off in the long run.
4b. I do not enjoy flogging on the car to meet a deadline (once we're at a race, it's a different story - we'll do what it takes to repair, etc.), plus that sort of rush job leads to shortcutting some jobs that will have to be done over later, even if they don't cause major problems.
5. And finally, Sherrie is not a fan of the Kansas weather.

Of course, #1 is the real reason. We would undoubtedly have gone had we qualified. The rest are just rationalizations.

[reisertracing]

IMO, for WIW,

If someone has won 7 runoffs and have over 20 years of Runoffs appearances, it is a no brainer that they should rec'd a runoffs invite. I believe that most of the racers would rather race against the best drivers in the class then have a good finish or win against less stellar racers.
As to drivers taking behind other's backs, that is human nature and since starting in FC I have found some folks more helpful, i.e., DW, then some other racers. I personally am too old to give the preverbial FRA about what someone thinks about me.
I would rather race against the best and finish last then finish up front with lesser drivers.
Look at the number of FA drivers in the Great Lakes DIV, 3, and only maybe 2 qualify for the runoffs. IN our division the FC fields have been down and only a few can qualify for the runoffs.
Let them race, I know DW isn't going this year and that is a shame. I always record the FC race and love the driving clinic he puts on. I wish everyone the best and as always rules were made to be broken, this should be a no argument, let the best racers race.
Johnny R