FA/FB Consolidation

[kma4444]

Hey all, I see this as a non-starter for FB. Since I am delivering our first FB chassis this weekend, I am directly affected by this rule change. I would prefer FB be left a regional class and stay at the ARRC. What say you guys?

[jjstecher]

What consolidation are you talking about? Did I miss something?

[RussMcB]

Y'know, I usually try to be open minded about change and not react too quickly. I do understand the goal, and that someone is not going to be happy with whatever change.

However, the only result of a FA/FB consolidation is, at best, one extremely disappointed and disenfranchised class. More than likely, BOTH classes will not be happy.

The beauty of FB is the relatively inexpensive chassis and limited engine prep. I hope neither of those are lost.

[Rick Ross]

I do not believe that this is open to member input. The decision has been made by the BOD and now the CRB will be tasked with implementation. At this point it does not matter if the current FB or FA owners are in favor of the change. It is a done deal. At least that is my understanding of the situation......I hope I'm wrong.

[kma4444]

I agree Rick, the way I read it, the deal is sealed for 2010. What I am gonna ask for is to let FB run as a regional only class, just leave it out of the consolidation plans. That way the ARRC is still an option, I don't know if the planned consolidation will take away FB's chance of running the ARRC as classes that are invited to the Runoffs aren't invited to the ARRC.

Here's the relevant text from this month's fasttrack;

[SIZE=2]"Specific consolidations for the 2009 competition year include: CSR and DSR, and SSB will be split between SSC and T3. For the 2010 season, the present class structure will be changed to the following 21 revised classes: SM, SRF, CSR/DSR/S2, GTL/GT3, FP/GP/HP,GT3/DP, GT2/GT3/BP, FF, T1/ST, T2, T3/SSB, SSC/SSB, FV, GT1, AS, FA/FB, FC, EP, F5, FE, and FM. Obviously, competition adjustments will need to be made by the Club Racing Board for some cars to ensure parity, and some current classes will need to be split between two or more new classes to minimize competition adjustments." [/SIZE]

[bill gillespie]

guys,

Could someone please explain to me exactly what "consolidation" means in regards to FA/FB ????

Thanks,
Bill

[kma4444]

If I understand it, and I'm pretty sure I've got it right, it means they will make one class out of the two. Either by slowing down the faster class or speeding up the slower or a combination of the both. I am on the prod adhoc and have been through some of this this year with the GP cars. Off topic, it looks like we will have a pantload more of that with the planned consolidation of H/G/F. The result of which will be the loss of the tiny engined prod cars I would imagine.

[Dave Welsh]

Found on page 6 of the June Fastrack


BOD/CLUB RACING TASK FORCE SUMMARY


Specific consolidations for the 2009 competition year include: CSR and DSR, and SSB will be split between SSC and T3. For the 2010
season, the present class structure will be changed to the following 21 revised classes: SM, SRF, CSR/DSR/S2, GTL/GT3, FP/GP/HP,
GT3/DP, GT2/GT3/BP, FF, T1/ST, T2, T3/SSB, SSC/SSB, FV, GT1, AS, FA/FB, FC, EP, F5, FE, and FM. Obviously, competition adjustments
will need to be made by the Club Racing Board for some cars to ensure parity, and some current classes will need to be split
between two or more new classes to minimize competition adjustments

[RobLav]

Wow!

CSR/DSR/S2 all in the same class? FE remains as it's own? Sounds fishy to me.

FA and FB are so different from one another. Nonsense.

It makes much more sense to unrestrict the Zetec FC and join with FB.

If this is being forced upon us without member input, my first impression is to leave the club. There's others out there.

Another thought - this will probably cause more segregation between National and Regional racing. Is that what is needed / wanted? If/when this is forced upon us, I'll never run a National unless it's in my back yard. We in NER lost money again on our NHMS National earlier this month. Why should we continue to put on races that we lose money for our Region?

So yeah - I'm in agreement with keeping FB as a Regional class only and doing the ARRC as KMA suggests.

[Marshall Mauney]

CSR/DSR/S2 all in the same class?

CSR and DSR are a natural combination, and S2 was #23 in National car counts last year. Given that CSR has been on and off the deathbed for quite some time, this one's not that tough to fathom.

FE remains as it's own? Sounds fishy to me.

I thought the same thing initially about F500 (why not combine with FF), but FE and F500 were #13 and #16 in participation in 2007 - solid enough to escape the axe. Since neither has a natural combination target that isn't also well-attended, there doesn't seem to be a good reason to merge any of FC, FF, FE, FM, F500, or FV.

FA and FB are so different from one another. Nonsense.

Can't argue with that. FB just hasn't had enough time to buld the car counts - it appears to be more of a timing issue than anything else. I don't think the FA guys will be happy about it, either. I'm trying to understand how they are going to get 'parity' between these two without really messing up one or the other....

[Sean Maisey]

My problem with this whole thing is that I was given a 'long term' plan by the club just last year. That plan promised me and my F1000/FB compatriots that we had 5 years to establish ourselves as a National class and become one of the 24 to make the Runoffs. I believe we are well on our way towards doing that.

Now only half way into the second season, after many of us have made SUBSTANTIAL personal and/or business investments, the rules change? I consider this development to be unfair in the extreme.

I am not usually one to call for legal remedies, but if there was ever a case where somebody needs to call the "Club" to task for inflicting financial damage on members by violating their own stated rules and long term plans. This is it.

So I think we need to start the FA/FB legal defense fund, and move to force the club to be accountable for their actions.

Contact me via e-mail if you agree.

Sean

[carnut169]

I'm cool with running as an FA. We just need to add about 500lbs of ballast to the current FA's to make them equal.

...or maybe we open up the FB rules to allow tunnels/ built engines so that the conversions become death-sleds and all current purpose built cars require massive updating- they should cost what an FA costs to run, right? Inexpensive high performance racing? Naa. That's crazy.

It makes a bunch more sence to have FC and FB merge, but I know FC still has big numbers- thought FA did as well?


Guys, get dual homologation and you can still run the ARRC as an FS.

The most troubling thing about this is that its a done deal without member input?? Could that be true? What is going on with this club??

[bill gillespie]

Gentlemen,

Like many of you, I have invested unjustifiable amounts of time and money to develop the best FA package that I could. If the club, with no member input, legislates performance penalties to the FA class, then I'm out. I will go vintage racing, or sell my car. I don't care if it comes as weight,SIR, Min wing angles, planks under the tub, etc. I'm sure the club is not concerned about losing me, but there may be other FA guys who feel the same.

On behalf of the FB guys, who speak eloquently without my help, I'm sure they have limited interest in upgrading to the latest GSXR grenades that have become common in the DSR class......I think speeding up a tube-frame car might open up other safety considerations.

What do the rest of you think???
Regards,
Bill Gillespie

[cooleyjb]

This is a question I feel I should know but going under my assumpiton that the current Atlantic cars aren't elgible for FA.

What year was the most recent FA elgible car made?
Are there any groups still making an FA car?

[bill gillespie]

AFAIK the Swift 014 is the most recent true FA.....stopped production in 2004 , I think.......currently no true FA cars are being manufactured, but this new consolidation will kill any interest inbuilding a new car.

Regards,
Bill

[carnut169]

Its time to put up a fight.

[Purple Frog]

I fear that the powers-to-be are making their decisions based on National racing numbers of the last 7 months. They may be underestimating the gross problem that the Topeka-Runoffs caused. Of course there is a severe drop off in interest. Duh!

I'm thinking they should have left things alone for a year or two, let the top 24 participating classes go to the Runoffs, and then see if the move to Road America restores the shine. Any decision based on this year's numbers is sckewed by the damage of the last two years.

Obviously the FC guys have a great place to play, either on the Left coast or East coast. A championship in either of those series has arguably as much prestige as a Runoffs win.

It seems the vintage guys are becoming more receptive to opening up for CFC type cars....

FB could argue to be a non-Runoffs qualifier and instead keep their National Runoff at the ARRC...

Folks are building neat little race series by imbedding them in regional events... NASA...

We have options.

At least they have given us something to talk about as we bench race at CMP this weekend.

[rickb99]

This is sad news. But most people seemed to MISS the essence of this thread. I tried to throw the red flag there

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27124

The first post describing the 'plan' made it CLEAR that the BOD was going to make changes to National racing WITHOUT any input from anybody except 7 people and themselves. Plus, allowing only 3 weeks of analysis before submitting 'recommendations'. Geez !

The 'commettee' wasn't looking at just the runoffs but the entire National racing program. It was rather shocking to me at the time of the post that this action would be taken without a broader input and at least a time for comment before adoption. Obviously they had a plan to take the club where they wanted it to go.

Makes you wonder if anybody involved has any concept of the differences between FA/FB cars or C/SR's and D/SR's let alone S2's!!

What's next do you suppose?

[RobLav]

"Its time to put up a fight."

Agree.

Three options for me:

1) Put up the fight. There is an agreement between the club and its members. Part of that agreement to me is that we had 5 years to build the class. Many of us have held up our part of the agreement. I have been. SCCA defaulted.

2) Leave

3) Homologate my car as FS only and stick with the people I know in my region.

Maybe I'm getting old now, but I am finding a common theme of poor dictatorial leadership everywhere - from the government, to what used to be my Navy, now to what I thought was my club.

The right way to "rightsize" the number of National classes is to provide a phased approach by the entry numbers over a few years. Let the market determine what classes survive. I thought we once had that approach. (And even all that is assuming that we want to decrease the number of National classes.)

I highly doubt SCCA Club Racing will return to where it once was as a stepping stone to higher levels of Pro racing. Delusions of grandeur. In my view, we need to somehow combine Regional and National racing into something more integrated. This dictatorial consolidation will have an extreme negative effect on National racing. I'm the Assistant RE of NER, and in my region, I will vote NO to hosting any National race again if this consolidation continues.

[Rick Ross]

It is my understanding that at least one car manufacturer was recently at least considering the design and construction of a new Atlantic car. I would assume that these plans are now on indefinite hold. It's a shame really.....it would have been cool to see a new FA design utilizing the latest aero tweaks, shocks, etc. Now any further investment in FA or FB is suspect.....

[Lee Stohr]

Maybe we should take a deep breath and calm down. First, SCCA has been known to change it's rules and even reverse itself. These class consolidations may not be cast in stone. Let's see how it plays out between now and the Runoffs.
Second, customers will buy cool race cars that make sense. F1000 is a great idea, and it will grow with or without the SCCA. Racers are interested in cars, not sanctioning bodies.
I'd very much like to understand why the BOD made some of these changes. Although they may improve Runoffs turnout, I'd think the club will lose as many drivers as they gain at the Runoffs. I just don't see a net gain for the SCCA. Hopefully we will learn more over the next weeks.

[Tony Moore]

I'm livid! Gary Hickman and I have spent a year designing and building a car for this class and a bucket load of money! If you count that we have our own machine shop and what we would have to have paid to have all the neat machined parts made, I doubt a person could duplicate a one off new design under 100K! I imagine Matt Conrad, Dustin Wright and Lee Stohr and Jay Novak aren't happy either. Plus, how many fence sitters out there we haven't heard from?

Gary Hickman and I have a mutual friend that is personal friends with the SCCA president. We will pull strings as hard as possible. There is a substantial safety issue and cost that the COB hasn't figured on.

Gary and I discussed the tube chassis and FB speeds safety some time ago. These cars as as fast as you would dare to take a club tube chassis. With all the emails I've seen this evening, I hope we mobilize all the FA/FB owners and builders to bring the COB to their senses. Do we allow built to the hilt motors, carbon tubs, etc and sky high costs to be as fast, or to the FA owners displeasure, make them carry ballast and restictors to slow them down. It is brainless either way.

Tony Moore

PS I was in the middle of homologation paperwork when I got the word!

[GoPro]

Maybe we should take a deep breath and calm down. First, SCCA has been known to change it's rules and even reverse itself. These class consolidations may not be cast in stone. Let's see how it plays out between now and the Runoffs.
Second, customers will buy cool race cars that make sense. F1000 is a great idea, and it will grow with or without the SCCA. Racers are interested in cars, not sanctioning bodies.
I'd very much like to understand why the BOD made some of these changes. Although they may improve Runoffs turnout, I'd think the club will lose as many drivers as they gain at the Runoffs. I just don't see a net gain for the SCCA. Hopefully we will learn more over the next weeks.

I've got to agree with Lee.

I am as competitive as anyone. I would LOVE to win a national championship in my FB...or an AARC title. I want it.

But in the end, aren't we buying and driving our cars because they are so fun to drive and oooh and ahhh at? I've driven the new Russell carbon F3 cars and guess what? My Stohr F1000 is way way way more fun to drive, way more "F1", and way less expensive to run. No contest. FB more fun than F3? Heck yes!

The politics of the SCCA are unfortunate, at present, but in the end we all own BITCHIN' race cars and whether it is regional, national, NASA, USSR, Mongolian, or whatever...we're so stoked that our FB's are as good as they are.

Maybe I am too new to SCCA to get it, agreed. But as long as we have a place to race, be it regional or whatever, I am stoked to haul the mail with you guys in our FB "F1" cars.

Lastly...our FB cars can have TERRIFIC races with FAs. I love giant hunting...so get fired up on the opportunity to show up guys in more powerful cars costing twice as much. Pro Mazdas are beatable...in a field of 12 Team GoPro qualified 5th, ran in 4th for most of the race, finished 5th after our tires went off. We beat 8 FAs! It was AWESOME! True, a true FA is quicker than a Pro Mazda but we've beat several of those, too. Just pretend you are a Force India driver...you're still in a RAD car!

Just trying to be positive as it relates to a "worst case" scenario for FB. Worst case is still a badass day in a badass car and the next time you see an FA...dig deep cause you can take him down.

Hi5 (I just had a big Red Bull, sorry :-) - Nick (GoPro)

[jerry freeman]

Unfortunately, I think fighting the sanctioning body is 99.9% hopeless. I'm not a national level racer but was hoping to get to that point in a year or two. No need to bother now. I would rather race regional only than combine with FA. If they do combine the classes then I'll be in FS and running against Scott W's Hyubusa and going to the ARRC. Look out Scott, I know some drag bike racers that can give me some turbo advice.

Back to the serious note. I didn't buy a $50,000 to $60,000 factory car but I've spent alot of money and a divorce inspiring amount of time on this class to have a car that fits a specific class with reasonable engine cost. I hate to see it go away before it gets started good. If there's anything I can do to help the national level fast guys with this situation please let me know.

Jerry
256-682-7849
or e-mail/PM

[cooleyjb]

AFAIK the Swift 014 is the most recent true FA.....stopped production in 2004 , I think.......currently no true FA cars are being manufactured, but this new consolidation will kill any interest inbuilding a new car.

Regards,
Bill

Thanks for the info. That's what I thought and what I fear SCCA could possibly use as part of a decision process.

[GoPro]

And per my message above, please know I don't mean to minimize the poor diplomacy of the SCCA on this matter. I don't want to upset our clan...I am just wanting to dispell any "FB Doomsday" gloom. I do say we fight...but no matter what, I LOVE my Stohr F1000 and will be driving the wheels off of it for years to come.

Long live FB - GoPro

PS - if we rally together and sell enough GoPro's GoPro will be able to afford to sponsor an F1000 Championship like the F2000 guys have. A real Pro series for F1000!!! Get selling!! :-)

But seriously...THAT would be terrific. A private F1000 Championship Pro Series with regional compeition leading to a National Championship that changes location each year, neither favoring East or West. Any rich FB owner / retired CEOs out there wanting a new project...there you go! It would make one HELLUVA junior formuia series in the USA...like Formula Palmer Audi or Formula Renault in Europe. Wow. Would be unreal.

Not to confuse the matter, but...

[jjstecher]

Finally getting back to this thread I think personally this is a breach of the contract (verbal or written) for the plan for FB and I think the SCCA is financially liable. I personally have well over 50k into buying my car and all the associated equipment and if this happens its worthless as you cannot win versus the Atlantics unless there are drastic rules changes which drive up the cost for everyone or magically a race within a race mentality forms (this wont happen). My investment is minimal I can imagine compared to what you have into the game Lee, Jay, Matt, etc. If I was you guys I would be out in Topeka with a damn pitch fork and torch. I respectfully disagree with you Lee in that everyone should sit around and wait.

From a personal perspective this just angers me to no end...I mean i am just livid sitting here tonight. I cannot personally believe that the actions of a entity that we all trusted with a written commitment to us that spurred unbelievable innovation from folks would change direction and pull the carpet out from under us less than 2 years into the 5 year plan. This is absolutely uncomprehendable...I mean they wonder why more people are flocking to NASA and marque club racing. They need the messages people will not put up with this and will bring down legal proceedings on them. GOD its not like this is adding 50lbs of balast...

[GoPro]

Good points...

[Rick Ross]

Joe makes a good point. The changes to the FB class may be minor, or even none at all. The BOD and CRB are not stupid, and they are well aware of the safety and cost implications associated with increased FB speeds. Perhaps the SCCA will make all the competition "adjustments" on the FA end? Slowing down the current FA cars may result in all or most of these cars disappearing from SCCA......but perhaps that result will be considered to be acceptable? It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the months ahead.

[jjstecher]

GoPro I respectfully disagree with your comments about folks driving their FB's just because they are fun...might be your opinion but its not mine. Personally paying the entry cost of the car then probably 1k+ per weekend for tires/gas/hotels/entry fees/etc racing against myself here in the midwest (assuming my car ever fricking runs) isn't my idea of fun. Yeah the car is a blast to run (even with three cylinders working) but at the end of the day the competition is what we are all in this for.

Looking back on this now my decision last fall should have been to build a Miata.

Like I said I am livid here thinking about the lost time and effort not to mention money.

[jjstecher]

Perhaps the SCCA will make all the competition "adjustments" on the FA end? Slowing down the current FA cars may result in all or most of these cars disappearing from SCCA......but perhaps that result will be considered to be acceptable? It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the months ahead.

If I was an FA owner I would be livid as the entry cost into those babies are magnitudes higher than FB. I just wouldn't take to kindly if I was in their shoes to being told my investment just lost 50% of its value.

[jerry freeman]

I don't have all the details but this same kind of thing happened in the NHRA with Pro Stock Trucks a few years back. They told them the class would be staying in and then they got rid of it. Pissed alot of big money people off and they sued the NHRA. Far as I know the NHRA won and the racers had to eat $500,000 plus racing operations. It will be a tough fight to beat a sanctioning body. I'll be glad to help any way I can but I don't have any money to contribute to the cause.

Like some other folks here have said, I wouldn't have spent all the time and money to build my own car if I knew this would happen in the first year and a half. Guess I should have bought a FC.

Jerry

[rickb99]

It's very small consolation but note that the FA/FB combo isn't scheduled until 2010. And, the BOD left it in the hands of the CRB for figure it out. What if they can't ?

Would not the methods for 'equalization' also have to be a 'rules change proposal' to be voted on according to the clubs 'rules'?

[Wren]

I have invested a substantial amount of money and an absurd amount of time in making parts for cars for FB as well(purchased a new cnc lathe for this express purpose), and I have never had any belief that there is money to be made in producing amateur formula cars. I did it because I wanted to do it and I thought it was cool and fun, but I also believed that the club wouldn't go out of it's way to **** over everyone involved in a new class that has grown exponentially already.

When the class started, there was one car and Stohr was finishing up delivery of his first car and already he has delivered plenty of cars, other manufacturers have delivered cars, and more are in the pipeline. The class has actually generated excitement and homologations of new chassis. Is there any other class that is getting multiple new designs this year? We haven't even had a chance to get one of our cars on the track and we are going to see the class eviscerated before that? I am still genuinely interested to see all of the different designs that are coming.

It all makes me very thankful that almost all parts on our car are common to the FC car, at least they have a place to race that isn't run by idiots.

[RussMcB]

The part that is most distressing to me is that the BOD would dictate these changes, which have such a major impact on many of us without ANY member input. I can only imagine that their mindset is that reducing the number of classes is of the utmost importance, the most important goal, the biggest problem facing SCCA today. Why else would they consider a change without opening it up for member input? It's too hard to fathom what they must be thinking.

After 25 years of being in love with the SCCA, I am becoming more and more disappointed with the decisions at the top. You would think that after mishandling a few things so badly recently *, they'd at least try to be more in touch with the members.

* The two that come to mind was the screwing of Jeremy Hill in FC before the Runoffs, and the Elan FC engine debacle.

I think the BOD members need to be replaced.

[Wren]

The part that is most distressing to me is that the BOD would dictate these changes, which have such a major impact on many of us without ANY member input. I can only imagine that their mindset is that reducing the number of classes is of the utmost importance, the most important goal, the biggest problem facing SCCA today. Why else would they consider a change without opening it up for member input? It's too hard to fathom what they must be thinking.

i would love to hear someone from the BOD name a single person that they think will be benefitted by this change.

I have been involved in some truly ****ed up sporting events/sanctioning bodies, but SCCA is currently taking the cake for the the most truly incompetent leadership I have ever even heard of.

[stonebridge20]

The part that is most distressing to me is that the BOD would dictate these changes, which have such a major impact on many of us without ANY member input. I can only imagine that their mindset is that reducing the number of classes is of the utmost importance, the most important goal, the biggest problem facing SCCA today. Why else would they consider a change without opening it up for member input? It's too hard to fathom what they must be thinking.

After 25 years of being in love with the SCCA, I am becoming more and more disappointed with the decisions at the top. You would think that after mishandling a few things so badly recently *, they'd at least try to be more in touch with the members.

* The two that come to mind was the screwing of Jeremy Hill in FC before the Runoffs, and the Elan FC engine debacle.

I think the BOD members need to be replaced.

Russ, If you think this BS is new. You should spend some time in a GT car. This is every day stuff for those guys. I did 4 years in GT3 and had two options. I either had to sell the GT3 car and come back to Formula cars or I had to slash my wrists! I see this fungus is now crawling into formula and sportsracing and I'm not happy. When it hits FF,...I'm out of here. Does anybody know where to buy lawn darts?

[Daryl DeArman]

Maybe...just maybe....if you F-up the FA/FB classes enough the FE fields will benefit?

Every time my little brain starts to think maybe the SCCA might have something to offer me in the future...they do something like this and make me realize despite any shortcomings of my current sanctioning body of choice I am MILES and MILES ahead without the SCCA.

[carnut169]

I think we should start the "fight" with letters. They need to know how we feel about this issue- I remember reading that they received 146 letters (ish) about the Elan manifold- a record- and immediatly changed their course of action. I'm sending mine off today.

If it is in fact a done-deal we should look at what Beauchamp has already started organizing- a F1000 series. His plans were to run select SCCA National events, but if that is not a viable option perhaps we should contact Rand- there may be room next to the F2000 series which is very well run and attended- without the SCCA (imagine that) Other options also exist.

[RussMcB]

I wonder if they were flooded with phone calls this morning if that might make an impression on them. I think I'll call and ask a few questions. I encourage others to do the same. I think a phone call is a more immediate & personal interaction. Too easy to toss an email or letter aside.