June Sprints Fuel?

[akilcoyne]

Please note that the supps and other information for the 2008 June Sprints have not yet been posted. They are currently being finalized, and then must be submitted for approval. Expect to see them on the website in a couple of weeks.

The only new (2008) piece of information available on the site is the (tentative) schedule. So, don't be confused by any of the 2007 information still available at junesprints.com.

I mention this because, as far as I know, we currently do NOT plan to require track fuel for any classes this year. Our stewards could explain the reasons for this better than I, but I believe the upshot is that while we like the idea in principle, in reality it proves problematic for a variety of reasons.

Hope this is helpful, and hope to see many of you at the Sprints this summer.

Regards,
Tom Maycock
Regional Exec,
Chicago Region SCCA

http://www.junesprints.com/2008/regulations.html

The supps. are posted, suprisingly nobody has jumped on the fact that Chicago Region is not requiring track fuel.

[Steve Demeter]

Hooray.

I hope this is a start of a club wide trend.

That would be a very good thing.

[DaveW]

Hooray.

I hope this is a start of a club wide trend.

That would be a very good thing.

IMO, that means "rocket fuel" will again be appearing at the June Sprints. How can that be a good thing?

[mblanc]

http://junesprints.com/2008/regulations.html

no mention of fuel.

Supplementary Regulations

CHICAGO REGION, SPORTS CAR CLUB OF AMERICA, INC. PRESENTS

1. The 53rd Annual Piggly Wiggly June Sprints® National Championship Road Races, June 20-22, 2008 at Road America Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin
2. National Sanction No: 08-N-53-S
3. This event is organized by the Chicago Region, Sports Car Club of America, Inc., (SCCA), and will be held under the current SCCA General Competition Rules (GCR) and official updates, except as modified by these Supplemental Regulations. This race is open to holders of SCCA National Competition Licenses only.
4. Chicago Region, Sports Car Club of America, Inc., 706 Waukegan Rd. #207, Glenview, IL 60025.
5. This is a National Race Event. See official schedule for race groupings and session lengths.
6. The attached schedule is part of these supplementary regulations.
7. Registration information
   1. On line registration for this event is available for those entrants using credit cards. Please go to www.dlbracing.com and navigate to the Chicago Region form for this event. NOTE: Once you have entered all your personal and car data, it is archived and you will not have to re-enter it for subsequent races.
   2. The registrars for this event are: Helga & Jerry Meyer. jerrymeyerscca@aol.com 1101 Oriole Drive, Munster, IN 46321 (219) 838-9232 FAX: (219) 838-3293 You must fill out the entire entry form and biographical sketch, including the information required by Visa/MasterCard. Include the Reserved Parking form if you are requesting a parking space. If you are not registering on line, please mail the forms with your payment, by credit card or check, to the registrar. Please include your parking fee in the same check or credit card charge as your race registration fee. Do not send a separate check for parking.
   Entry fees:
   
   
   StandardSRF/FE/SM Mail/Fax:$350$360 Online:$330$340
   Add $45 late fee for all entries submitted after May 20, 2008
   
   Pertinent dates for this event (all dates 2008):
   
   Opening date for receipt of entries Noon CDT May 1 Late fee deadline May 20 CenDiv reserved car number hold May 20 To be listed in the Road America Program, entries must be received by May 20 Online registration closes 11:59 PM CDT June 13 Entry status notification if the entry received before June 6 Entry cancellation notification June 13 Special License confirmation with Topeka June 16 Late/new entries at track will not be processed until after 7 PM Thursday June 19
8. Chief Steward: Bev Heilicher Chairman SOM: Angelo Gazzola
9. Race results and trophy distribution will be per the GCR and FasTrack updates. They will be available at Driver Information Center after results become official. No trophies will be mailed
10. See attached schedule for scale hours.
11. Other information
    1. In accordance with Central Division regulations, all cars in BP and DP classes must be presented for full GCR re-inspection per GCR 5.9.2.C. Tech stickers will not be issued for these cars until they complete this re-inspection.
    2. The sound limit for this event is 103dB. During the race you will be black flagged after 3 readings in excess of 103dB, and moved to last finishing position if you have a finish with a loss of event points.
    3. Functioning transponders AMB TRANX 260 properly mounted to the competition vehicle will be required for all classes. Transponder times are official time for all race groups.
    4. Radio frequencies 150.890, 151.625, 151.895, 154.570, 154.600, 451.825, 452.750, 456.825, 456.900, 457.075, 457.750, 463.225, 464.325, 464.375, 464.525, 468.225, 469.325, 469.375, and 469.525 are reserved for race operations and may not be used by competitors. Race officials reserve the right to designate other frequencies for race administration.
    5. The FM tire rule sections 9.1.1.F.14.A through 9.1.1.F.14.D are not in effect for this event, and are replaced by the following: A competitor shall start the race on tires used in a qualifying session for the race as identified by markings made on the tires by a race official. It is the responsibility of the competitor to ensure that his or her tires are appropriately marked prior to (e.g. on the false grid), during, or immediately after (e.g. as the car leaves the track) a qualifying session. A competitor shall start the race on any marked tires from any qualifying session for the race. If a competitor chooses to start the race on any tires that were not used in a qualifying session for the race and not appropriately marked, the competitor shall forfeit his or her grid position and start from the back of the grid. This forfeiture of grid position shall not apply if all qualifying sessions for the race were run under rain or wet conditions. A complete set of four (4) rain or wet track tires may be used at the competitor’s discretion for any race. Rain tires may be in new or used condition and require no special marking if used as a complete set of four.
    6. All cars needing to go to impound should exit pit lane at thecenter-pit opening (first opening past start/ finish), go across to the second paddock road, and turn left to head to impound. If you should miss the opening, or your pit stall is after this opening, continue to the pit-out exit into the paddock, return north on the paddock road along the cyclone fence, and then join the cut across road. Please observe directions of pit and tech officials. Cars needing to go to Winners Circle shall follow the directions of the pit marshals.
    7. Drivers may be held responsible for damages to property, including track and environmental damage.
    8. If the fastest qualifier in a race group chooses to start from the “outside pole position” (per GCR), this decision must be conveyed to the Grid Marshal at the front of the field before the 5 minute signal is given for that race group.
    9. There will be mandatory driver’s meetings at the Road America Center. See schedule for times.
    10. Attached are the Road America track rules. They are considered part of these supplementary regulations, and are enforceable as such. Special June Sprints amendments to these rules:
        1. On track hours will be per schedule and/or adjusted as needed for race operations
        2. No race engines may be run past 15 minutes after the last checkered flag of each day or the time published in the track rules, whichever is later. Cars that are released from impound or SOMs after that point may restart their engine, and drive directly to their paddock (unless otherwise directed), and shut off their engine for the day. All competitors must vacate the premises by 7:00PM Sunday. If you are involved in a tech or SOM action that will require you to stay past that point, unless otherwise directed, you must move your tow vehicle to the main, competition, or west paddock prior to 7PM. Check with the Chief of Tech (if a tech action) or the Chairman SOM (if a SOM action) prior to moving your tow vehicle.
    SCHEDULE OF EVENTS
    
    Please visit the 2008 JUNE SPRINTS SCHEDULE for the most current schedule information.

[akilcoyne]

...also no mention of a split start for FF/FM

[Tom Maycock]

I addressed the fuel issue (briefly) in my letter, available here:

http://www.junesprints.com/2008/index.html

Let me put it this way:

In my fantasy world where everything operates the way I think it should:

1) We'd require spec fuels for everyone at the Sprints

2) Appropriate fuels would be available for every class, at reasonable prices.

3) I could guarantee that our ability to verify the use of said fuels would be 100% perfect.

4) Any decisions regarding abuses of the fuel rules would be completely enforceable and upheld through the appeals process.

5) All the above could be done without inconveniencing any competitors.

Sadly, it ain't that simple.

At this point, we're looking to the national office to take the next step regarding the fuel issues. I understand they are working on that, although it's not an easy problem to solve.
Meanwhile, we'll stick to enforcing the fuel rules as currently spec'd in the GCR.

[Keith Carter]

Here's a response back from Bob Lybarger (Area 5 Director). This is NOT good. For a high profile event like the Sprints, this can only mean people are going to run C-44. FF AND FC GUYS SEND IN YOUR EMAILS TO the CRB for Chicago Region. WE ONLY HAVE TWO WEEKS TO GET OUR OPINIONS IN


"For some reason the CRB seems to think it was a bad spec. Yes it is hard to enforce, but at least it helped keep the nasty fuels out of the club. My feeling this move is not good. I believe it is on our Agenda in 2 weeks.

Thanks for letting me know your feelings and I hope others will write the BOD with their feeling.
Thanks
Bob"

[Keith Carter]

I've been informed by the BOD that this was Chicago region's decision and should be directed at the CRB. Doe anyone have a contact email for the CRB of Chicago Region I can post?

[Steve Demeter]

Dave,
I was hoping that in the long run there would be rules put in place that would control the use of the Rockett type fuels ( and not mandating a specific fuel) while still allowing reasonable choices such as Avgas, track fuel and the loike, without allowing the $50 a gallon stuff that gives a small increase in performance and is toxic as heck.

[John LaRue]

I don't care for it either as this just further disenfranchises the Zetec as it can't be adjusted to utilize the "rocket" fuels as can the Pinto. How is that fair? That being said however, why should this race and/or Runoffs be run onder different rules than all other races? How is this different than running all national events at weight "X" and then Sprints and Runoffs at weight "Y"?

[Stan Clayton]

I've been informed by the BOD that this was Chicago region's decision and should be directed at the CRB. Doe anyone have a contact email for the CRB of Chicago Region I can post?

Keith is correct...this is a Chicago Region decision, NOT the CRB's. With all due respect to what Mr Lybarger may have been told, the CRB was not consulted by Chicago Region about the appropriateness of them no longer specifying track fuel for selected classes at the Sprints. On the contrary, in an exchange of PMs on this topic in March I was informed by a prominent member of that Region that "the Stewards in CENDiv have concluded, based on information obtained at the Runoffs and in conversation with the Execs, that it [requiring track fuel] would not withstand a protest."

My response that "...since the Runoffs have gone to track fuel, there is no feeling on the CRB that other races cannot do the same so long as they go through the normal Sups validation process." did not dissuade him. He felt that their fuel testing procedures were not robust enough to pass scrutiny. So be it, but this is certainly not the same as saying that the CRB forbid it.

Stan

[Tom Maycock]

Just to be absolutely clear, no one from Chicago Region implied or meant to imply that this was a national CRB decision. I think Bob L. got some wires crossed somewhere along the way.

[Bill Steele]

I was away from racing when the big fuel stuff all came about and then ebbed

Call me a skeptic, but can anyone give me a first person account of how C44 will affect an "everything being equal" result, say in FF or FC.

I hear people throw around numbers like it's a second a lap or it's 5 HP (in FF). These claims seem very difficult to believe.

[DaveW]

Dyno results with ERC V4 on my 2L Pinto showed ~4-5 HP. And on the track, it was worth more than that - throttle response was instantaneous and really helped coming out of the corners and after shifts.

[Bill Steele]

Dyno results with ERC V4 on my 2L Pinto showed ~4-5 HP. And on the track, it was worth more than that - throttle response was instantaneous and really helped coming out of the corners and after shifts.

Dave, thanks for the feedback from a credible source, it makes all the difference when trying to understand this stuff. It sure beats the "wink and nod" and "trust me it really worked" stuff you get around the paddock.

Did you re-jet to get these gains or just put the V4 in the tank?

With my limited understanding of the combustion process, I am struggling to envision how these kind of gains can be realized without some dyno time for jetting changes.

Thanks again,

Bill

[Keith Carter]

Did you re-jet to get these gains or just put the V4 in the tank?

I believe to get full potential of the C-44 you need to rejet and change the timing.

[DaveW]

I believe to get full potential of the C-44 you need to rejet and change the timing.

Correct - jetting needs to be richer, and timing retarded a degree or 2.

[Bill Steele]

Thanks again.

OK, I will keep my trap shut about how we don't need all the fuel testing rules. At $46/gal, I get it.

[Garey Guzman]

I'm hoping for a kitchen pass for this event but I'll be running my good ol Avgas, which was 10% the cost of that stuff.

I'll save the extra money for tires and coaching!

[Brad Ellingson]

Did I miss something? Since when did this become more than a hobby? What has winning the June Sprints gotten anyone that is worth spending that kind of coin on fuel? No slam on these guys, but what are Coello, Caldwell and Tomasi doing these days? Would I like to win the Sprints, sure...but I'd much rather win it on driving rather than on the fact that I can spend an outrageous amount on fuel. Garey, you have the right idea...AVGAS and save your pennies...maybe you can get Tom Christ to come out of retirement and do some coaching. I'm also to understand Cole Morgan might be available that weekend. This is supposed to be fun guys. With the way things have gone the last couple of years in FC, the mystery full course yellow and the Coello penalty, the advantage of having rocket fuel probably won't be realized anyway. I guess I'll be at the back of the pack having fun instead of going broke buying fuel.

[Keith Carter]

There will be people who will use C44 because they can and need every edge they can get and then there will be people who run C44 because they have to because the other guy is using it. We will be neither.

[D.T. Benner]

I have a bunch of empty C-44 cans,I fill them with AvGas and pretend to go faster?

[Garey Guzman]

Brad,
I bought my first two cars from Tom! I don't think I'd be able to get him to go back to WI but that might be a fun idea! Maybe you can show me around the place and I can follow you to the checker!

DT,
Bring the cans! I'd love to fill them with AvGas and ruin my "Cheapo" reputation!

[Bill Steele]

First, let me say I agree totally with the idea that for most people racing in SCCA, an investment in a driving coach versus an investment in "hot fuel" is a wise choice. As far as all this high and mighty bull about not needing it, or not stooping to it, well for that I just say, er, bull.

To be honest, I don't even know if C44 or V4 or whatever is the hot stuff this year, is legal. Based on what has been posted on this thread, I am not sure anyone here actually knows if it is legal (i.e. will pass the current GCR standard). But if it is legal, the "the guys that need it to go fast" talk is just bull.

If you can't or won't afford it, or even better don't need it, great for you. The real issue isn't moral indignance or some bull about being above it all. It's about what is legal and what is not. If only track gas is legal and it is specifically tested for, then anyone that uses something else is a cheater and worthy of the moral indignance of every racer around them. On the other hand, if it is legal and you are just not using it because your wallet is too short, well, that is your problem.

While on the subject of legality, it cracks me up that guys will belly ache about gas they are not even sure is legal within their club rules just because it costs more or belly ache about the price of track gas, but think nothing of breaking a federal law so they can save $2/gal to run Avgas over what is being sold at the track (yes, it is against federal law to use 100LL Avgas in anything that doesn't have wings and no, Darrell, that does not include your VD),

Moral indignance, give me a break, or more accurately just give me an enforceable rule and give me a break on all the other bull.

Man, that came out a little hot, oh well, flame on...

[Steve Demeter]

Bill,
It is perfectly legal to use AvGas in anything that is not driven on public roads. Including race cars.

I have checked with my guys at 2 different airports.

If it was not legal, they told me they would not put it in anything but an airplane.

[Bill Steele]

Bill,
It is perfectly legal to use AvGas in anything that is not driven on public roads. Including race cars.

I have checked with my guys at 2 different airports.

If it was not legal, they told me they would not put it in anything but an airplane.

Steve, first, thanks for not taking offense to what I posted last night. I had a pretty good head of steam up. Looking my post over this morning, I am not sure indignance is a word.

From my perspective, I don't care at all if guys want to use Avgas, I used it years ago and found it worked fine in my Swift. What I was trying to convey is my opinion we need rules that are enforceable and are then actually enforced.

On the legality of Avgas for racing, your friends that sell it to you are misinformed. A very good friend of mine and part time business partner owns the fuel concession at a local airport. When I came back to racing a year ago after a long time off, I called my buddy and asked about getting some 100LL. He then told me chapter and verse about what it would cost him if he was caught selling the fuel for non-aviation use. He did say that going out on a quiet weekday morning when his fuel boy was out on another part of the field with the truck and using the self pay pumps myself probably held little risk on my part or his but it did not come without some risk, as it was absolutely against the law to sell the fuel for any non-aviation related use, period. I decided the $2 a gallon difference over buying the Sunoco 110 at the track wasn't worth it.

Anyway, got to go start loading the trailer, heading out to Laguna Seca this weekend.

[D.T. Benner]

I like AvGas because it is consistant and reliable. I have had some bad experiences with "race" gas and like to know the stuff I put in my car was made for people who need to know that what goes into their expensive engines will probably not require them to pull over and park on the nearest cloud.

[cooleyjb]

So far the avgas debate is supported by anecdotal evidence at best. Does anyone have a link to real regulations?

As for happy gas at the Sprints and Runoffs. I agree with Brad and the others. No need to just up the cost of racing because 'we can'. This is club racing. Even at the national level it should be fun.

If the Sprints committe won't make a rule maybe the competitors could step up and run a gentleman's agreement. I know the SM people have a growing 'plain old gas' contingent.

[rmccown]

I found this page

http://www.natasafety1st.org/et_5_060401.htm

Which has this tidbit:

Distribution and sale of aviation gasoline for these purposes is strictly prohibited by regulations controlling commercial gasoline quality by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). AVIATION GASOLINE MUST BE USED ONLY IN AIRCRAFT.
The specific regulations limiting this activity are found in Title 40, Part 80 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

Looking for those regs now.

[stonebridge20]

If the Sprints committe won't make a rule maybe the competitors could step up and run a gentleman's agreement. I know the SM people have a growing 'plain old gas' contingent.

Joe, It's a great idea in principal but I have seen these "gentlemen's agreements" in action. The first session of the day and everybody is off the "fuel" and then qualifing rolls around and some limp dick's exhaust smells funny. Race time and the false grid fumes will kill ya!

[cooleyjb]

Joe, It's a great idea in principal but I have seen these "gentlemen's agreements" in action. The first session of the day and everybody is off the "fuel" and then qualifing rolls around and some limp dick's exhaust smells funny. Race time and the false grid fumes will kill ya!

Very true-

And the only repercussion is the 'stinkeye' from your competitors.

[KevinFirlein]

like the 'stinkeye' they got when they sold their old car for a newer faster one ? Rally is no difference. Somehow I dont think the june sprints will be full of 87 Reynards and SE3's

[RussMcB]

I think what sets the high dollar fuels apart from other ways to spend money is the perceived health aspect. (I say percieved because I *think* they are unhealthy, but don't really know).

As mentioned by others, complaining about the cost is silly. Anyone can spend whatever they want on whatever they want as long as it's legal. A dollar has different values to different people. Some people can spend ridiculous amounts of money on things simply because that have plenty to spend. Nothing we can do about that.

If you really don't want someone using an exotic fuel, you're better off focusing on the health aspect. Perhaps put pressure on the SCCA to do a better of job preventing unhealthy fuels and allow those that present less risks. Perhaps you can arrive at a gentleman's agreement based on the health risks.

If someone has more money than you (and therefore, a competitive advantage), all you can do is try to outperform them in other areas and feel good about overcoming the obstacles.

[John Nesbitt]

I think what sets the high dollar fuels apart from other ways to spend money is the perceived health aspect. (I say percieved because I *think* they are unhealthy, but don't really know).

If health is the issue, then what about leaded fuels?

[Bill Steele]

So this will be my last post on this subject (I promise).

The only way I see making fuel rules that work is to specifiy track gas in the various forms and test for that gas specifically, any non-track gas present, you are busted. This approach does leave the guys that don't care about the extra 5 HP and use a cheaper alternative to track gas out in the cold, but In my opinion it is the best way to keep things under control in the long run.

On the Avgas stuff, I called my buddy who runs the concession at the local airport to make sure I understood him right when we last talked about this subject. Steve D. is right, at least as far as his use is concerned. My buddy did not know of any law that specifically forbids using 100LL for non-road use. The weird part is the law is very specific about him dispensing Avgas for non-aviation use, it is illegal. He explained that if he were caught knowingly dispensing Avgas for non-aviavtion use he could face a hefty fine and probably lose his permits to sell it. He went on to say that the practical risk most FBO's would run dispensing it didn't seem too large as there really ins't anyone to actually police the process. His take was, he just wasn't willing to take the chance.

So I guess I better retract the part about calling all the Avgas users Felons?

[Garey Guzman]

First, let me say I agree totally with the idea that for most people racing in SCCA, an investment in a driving coach versus an investment in "hot fuel" is a wise choice. As far as all this high and mighty bull about not needing it, or not stooping to it, well for that I just say, er, bull.

To be honest, I don't even know if C44 or V4 or whatever is the hot stuff this year, is legal. Based on what has been posted on this thread, I am not sure anyone here actually knows if it is legal (i.e. will pass the current GCR standard). But if it is legal, the "the guys that need it to go fast" talk is just bull.

....

Moral indignance, give me a break, or more accurately just give me an enforceable rule and give me a break on all the other bull.

Man, that came out a little hot, oh well, flame on...

No flaming here. You're right, people will spend what they can. I have no problem knowing that I'm being outspent. I also know that I will likely never be able to spend like a lot of people can or test as often as others do.

A solid rule for fuels would be great but if it was easy, it would have been done by now. I have a lot of faith in the volunteers in the club but I also realize that as a member, it's up to me to participate in the process if something is wrong. Bad-mouthing or whining has never resolved a problem.

I also know that unless the engine is properly tuned for the hot fuel, little or no benefit will be realized. I also know that my motor was built by a very well-known professional who tuned it on AvGas. I really, really don't care what anyone else uses within whatever rules we are all working with.

Finally, I mentioned that I would spend my money on something other than the hot fuel. As a realist, I know where my deficiencies are and they aren't in the motor! I've passed top RunOff guys on starts and on the straights! Instead, I'll spend my limited resources on more long-term stuff that doesn't go away so easily. Tires, fuel and the tweek-of-the-week might give a short term boost if everything is prepared for its optimum use but information can be kept forever! (As long as I write it down!)

[Garey Guzman]

So this will be my last post on this subject (I promise).

The only way I see making fuel rules that work is to specifiy track gas in the various forms and test for that gas specifically, any non-track gas present, you are busted. This approach does leave the guys that don't care about the extra 5 HP and use a cheaper alternative to track gas out in the cold, but In my opinion it is the best way to keep things under control in the long run....

Sorry to seem like I'm picking on you or rebutting everything you say but are we sure this would work?

Personally, I run mostly Nationals but because of where I'm located, I run in 2 different Divisions consistantly and will probably be in 4 Divs this year! (Road Atlanta, Gateway, Road America, Mid Ohio, and more) How much would I have to purge my fuel system when going to a different track? It would really suck to have just enough of the previous fuel in the system to ruin a fuel test. I honestly don't know how much it takes to contaminate a fuel test so if anyone knows, please pass on the info.

Or maybe you shouldn't pass on the info because that guy that cheats would use the info to purge/clean his system after a tainted qual/race!!

[RacerDave51]

From the Code of Federal Regulations: Sect 80.78 (12)(i) Controls and Prohibitions on Reformulated Gasoline

"12)(i) The prohibited activities specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section do not apply in the case of gasoline that is used to fuel aircraft, or racing motor vehicles or racing boats that are used only in sanctioned racing events, provided that product transfer documents associated with such gasoline, and any pump stand from which such gasoline is dispensed, identify the gasoline either as conventional gasoline that is restricted for use in aircraft, or as conventional gasoline that is restricted for use in racing motor vehicles or racing boats that are used only in sanctioned racing events."

This in it self doesn't prove (or disprove) legality. Like many Govt Regs this issue can be interpreted more than one way.