Aluminum Head Concerns

[DaveW]

1. How about if the aluminium head is targeted (restricted in some way) to be comparable to the current iron head and Ztec configurations?

That would get the aluminium head in, not cause the bottom to drop out of the iron head market and not cause any adjustments to the Ztec.

2. As far as Nikki's engine, do not forget that the engine is just one component of thhe entire package and the rest of the car still has to be right and the driver still has to drive it.

Steve

1. Obviously, a viable alternative. I just don't think it should come in at the current 25-lb penalty, and then cause everything else (iron head or Zetec) more problems.

2. That was just an (albeit, an isolated one) example - he WAS at least a second faster than anyone else, and if his motor were not VERY good, it wouldn't matter who was driving, or what other tweaks were done to the car. In addition, it is fairly well known that even average Pinto engines have several more peak HP above 6200 RPM. The Zetec in its current form, peaks at ~6000, and after that the Pinto is definitely superior.

The main reason I mentioned Niki, is that he would have won if he hadn't broken. What people tend to remember is that two Zetec-engined cars finished 1st and 2nd, not that Niki was the class of the field.

[csrazzle]

Costs mean a lot to my effort to field a car and I was very discouraged when I thought everyone had left those of us with cast heads to our own league. I appreciate the thought being given to equalization because we are all compeitively driven or we would be doing something else. I am curious about the 8 lb flywheel. who produces this piece? The stock flywheel cannot be taken this light can it? I feel this is a good approach as it should lead to more longevity out of the pinto engine. I monitor bearing wear closely and with the current weights we are turning we are beating our bearings to death and a lighter flywheel could readily extend bearing life.

[S Lathrop]

The light flywheel for the Pintos seems like a very good approach to balancing the performance between the Zetec and the Iron head Pintos. The current situation is not tenable.

Currently the Zetecs smoke the Pintos out of the corners but are easily passes before the next corner if there is enough streight. If you match the Zetec and Pinto at the top end, the Zetec has an unfair advantage at the bottom end. In a heads up race the Zetec can not win because you can't get far enough ahead to prevent the Pinto from repassing. I think most every one knows this situation. The problem at hand is that it appears the comp board wants to leave the current situation in place until the Aluminum head is out and they see how things work out. Then try balance a 3 ball juggling act. Why would any one expect them to juggle 3 bals any better than they have with 2 balls?

In the mean time the inbalance will persist until some time in the smoky future. I think that the current problem needs to be resolved and the Aluminum head introduced after there is parity with the cars racing today.

[ccambern]

The light flywheel I tested last year was a custom piece from Quartermaster. It weighed 7.5# and I think it cost ~$275. It did a good job of equalizing the acceleration between my car and the Zetec powered cars. I did end up with a bit more top end, but, as Dave pointed out, that is easily fixed on the Zetec side. The nice thing about the flywheel is that it makes the two engine packages more similar. It is also cheap and easy to implement.

-Clark

[Art Smith]

Clark-

based on your experience, shouldn't the cost of a highly reliable digital rev limiter be included in your cost number for implementing the lightweight flywheel??

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[ccambern]

Probably... if you miss a shift, the motor does zing a little more (didn't blow up, though). Even so, a hell of a lot cheaper than the alu head!

[Blair Robertshaw]

Hi Clark,

Did the lightened flywheel make much difference on the watch? And is the 7.5Lbs a weight that was randomly choosen or can you spec lighter than that from Quartermaster?

[Chas Shaffer]

I just spoke to Steve Knapp. He says the aluminum head made 5 hp and 7 ft-lbs more than a good iron head. That is official on his dyno. He gave me permission to post the numbers.

[NPalacioM3]

Chas, so now the question is; is the 25lb addition enough of an equalizer? I will let you enginnering guys hash that one out.... But I look forward to reading more on this discussion now that the results are out!

[Steve Demeter]

Chas,
Was the shape of the torque and HP curves similar to the iron head Pinto.

Not so good at low end, but all the HP is at the top end?

[Art Smith]

Chas-

what does the "good head" (cast iron) make in horsepower (HPc) and torque (FT-LBc) as a function of rpm on the same short block and same dyno as the aluminum head was tested on? attributeable numbers without a reference/datum are sure to only further aggravate emotions already heightened by endless rumors and speculation.

while surely well intended, the numbers shared do nothing in my mind to address the need for a "perception of fair and equitable". the testing must be completely open, objective, and independent without even a hint of the potential for conflict of interest. anything less than ALL the data is a path to endless questions AND a spoken or unspoken belief there's a reason that ALL the data wasn't provided....................... what are the chances that any of the folks who have recently converted to Zetecs might be prepared to accept a "good head" that makes 140HPc at 6500rpm as a "fair and equitable" standard for use in the determination of "parity"??

I remain of the opinion that the Club's leadership created this problem and as a consequence ought to pay for the independent, objective, and completely open testing required to clean-up the mess.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Chas Shaffer]

I was not privy to the dyno sheets, just peak hp and torque numbers. I'll ask and report back.

[NPalacioM3]

Chas,

Not so good at low end, but all the HP is at the top end?

I heard peak was in the 64-6500 range.

[ccambern]

Hi Clark,

Did the lightened flywheel make much difference on the watch? And is the 7.5Lbs a weight that was randomly choosen or can you spec lighter than that from Quartermaster?

I can't say if it made a difference on the watch- we didn't back-to-back against the old flywheel. I can tell you that we were more competitive, compared to Zetecs I'd been racing with throughout the season. At most tracks, my best laps were about 1.5 sec off pole. At M-O, where I tested the flywheel, I turned a 26.8 in practice on (very) old tires, which put us within striking distance of the leaders (fast guys were running low 26s). I was also able to pass Zetecs, which is something that I was unable to do with the heavy flywheel, even racing against cars that were significantly slower.

Can't say the races turned out so well, though... the engine seemed to lay over as the weekend went on. It had done quite a few miles and I think was due for a re-build. Over-revs may also have hurt it- when you miss a shift with a little flywheel, it does zing more.


As for the weight... 8# was the number suggested by Craig Taylor, because he figured it was as low as you could safely go without getting into exotic materials. The flywheel I ended up with happed to be sitting on the shelf at QS, so it was a no-brainer as a test piece.

-Clark

[Joefisherff]

Charles,

Did he give you a price for the aluminum head? Everyone is asking but no one seems to know. Thanks for posting the numbers.

Joe

[Keith Carter]

Last I heard it was $3500 using your old head as a parts donor. Where that puts a complete new AL head without a donor head is too far out of my ballpark.

Charles,

Did he give you a price for the aluminum head? Everyone is asking but no one seems to know. Thanks for posting the numbers.

Joe

[Alan Oppel]

As we all ponder the changes that are upon us, remember that as far as fair racing is concerned, we need only equality to obtain that. Hotdog carts of same criteria can be raced within an equality constraint. However, we are human, and are subject to the 'new idea is great' syndrome. Keep our racing equal and allow people to get excited over new things is a hard thing to govern. I support new and more easily available parts, and I trust that the comp. board is working to keep our racing available and interesting to as many as possible. Why is not a question, how is the correct answer! Alan

[EYERACE]

Alan - for an engine that hasn't been produced for quite a few years now, who would care to cast up new but iron ones when aluminum could be done instead?

With the resultant lower C of G....and considering they're in the for profit business with also the resultant "sizzle/wow/big deal" to drive sales if it's made of aluminum.....they'll be able to get away with a greater profit margin using aluminum rather than iron is a guess.

Aluminum might as well instead be "unobtainium" for a lot of us but it won't kill the class, it didn't FF, not that you were saying that

[Alan Oppel]

As Eye see this, the rules have to be in place properly to make new parts available without making the new part the 'must have or you are at the back of the pack' option. FF did not give a weight penalty for the allum head. If I had one, I would paint it cast iron gray. I expect this part to be a first rate high quality bit of kit, knowing the people involved. To undertake a process of casting and making such a part available, that is a heavy duty load of work, engineering, and commitment. Even the decisions made as far as rules/ competition adjustment require lots of time and knowledge. This may seem a slippery road to travel down, but in the production car world 2 valve cast iron engines are becoming the rarity, and we are talking about preserving our pleasure of racing without large wholesale changes to cars and classes. Alan

[cooleyjb]

Any more info on the AL heads?

Anyone get actual numbers for the motor?

[cooleyjb]

Have any other builders been privelege to these new heads other than Elite?

The Elan thread made me think more about equal engines and I'm really curious now.

The more I read technical posts on this forum the more I find out I know even less, so I may be off base here.

How can something that is supposed to be the same dimensions (al head vs. original head) have 5% more power? Is there something about aluminum that allows an engine to produce more power?

[DaveW]

IIRC, it has to do with the internal port configuration, not the fact that it's aluminum. If anything, AL absorbs more combustion heat, making it less thermally efficient.

[cooleyjb]

IIRC, it has to do with the internal port configuration, not the fact that it's aluminum. If anything, AL absorbs more combustion heat, making it less thermally efficient.

Thanks Dave

I could be totally wrong but it was my understanding that the port configuration was supposed to be identical to what could be achieved by a skilled builder in the iron head.

I'm just trying to understand more about various engine setups that are currently allowed in FC. Just want to be more knowledgeable to have the ability to make more informed decisions.

[DaveW]

IIRC, accomodations (more material) had to be made in the AL head to provide proper support for valve-seat inserts. This, IIRC, gives better port radii under the seats, providing a slight flow improvement.

[Purple Frog]

doesn't hurt that the AL combustion chamber also just happens to be smaller... oops. (just a current rumor... )

[DaveW]

doesn't hurt that the AL combustion chamber also just happens to be smaller... oops. (just a current rumor... )

I just heard that, too. How will they meet the minimum CC rule?

[Purple Frog]

Word is that there is a special thicker head gasket in the development process... bet that will be a cheap off the shelf part.

Oh... and don't try to use the head on a Tatuus, or anyother chassis requiring an upper head engine mount.

[DaveW]

Word is that there is a special thicker head gasket in the development process... bet that will be a cheap off the shelf part.

So, how is that going to affect the supposed 5-7 HP gain that the AL head was reported to give?

[cooleyjb]

So, how is that going to affect the supposed 5-7 HP gain that the AL head was reported to give?

I think that explains the gain.

Wouldn't the smaller chamber increase the compression and bump the HP up a bit?

However if as PF says you can't use the head on certain chassis then it's an aluminum boat anchor.

[Stan Clayton]

Yes, Doug Learned and the engine builders have been working to develop a thicker-than-stock head gasket to recapture the cc's lost to the thicker spark plug and valve seat bosses. Presuming the new gasket works out, plan on about $70 for it.

Keep in mind that the gasket is to bring the combustion chamber back up to 49cc's, and that there is no guarantee lowering the CR will result in significantly less power. We anticipate somewhat lower power, and that would be nice, but there are no guarantees.

Some rewording of 9.1.1.B.3 will be needed to accommodate the new gasket, and that will come out with the table of measurements and volumes for the alloy head.

I understand that the first valve cover Doug designed to clear the thicker cam towers does not fit the Tatuus. Doug told me recently that he is working on a modification (or new bits) so it can fit more chassis. Stay tuned.

More than 200 Pinto-powered FC's were active in Club Racing last year (versus about half a dozen Zetecs), and Fast Forward and the engine builders, and the F/SRAC, CRB and BoD are fully committed to supporting them. Good people are working hard on equitable solutions to the remaining issues, and your continued patience as they are worked out is appreciated.

Stan

[cooleyjb]

I understand that the first valve cover Doug designed to clear the thicker cam towers does not fit the Tatuus. Doug told me recently that he is working on a modification (or new bits) so it can fit more chassis. Stay tuned.

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