A Few Questions

[nickster53]

I would first like to compliment ApexSpeed for a great forum and the member’s willingness to help us newbie’s get started in racing. As a little background I have wanted to get into racing for many years and am finally in a position where I can seriously get started. I am going to Skippy’s 3 day racing school at Laguna Seca next month and I am really excited about finally racing. My questions revolve around the next steps assuming the experience with the school is positive and I have the necessary fortitude (balls) to really race. My first qualifying question is, am I too old to start? I am in my 60’s. The good news is that I finally have the time and money to really do this.

I read that as a first car I should avoid “wings”; I really don’t quite understand the reasoning behind this. I was considering FE, is this not a reasonable starting point? Assuming it could be reasonable, I would like to rent for my first year. Are FE’s available to rent in the Southeast (Atlanta Region)? Would the CSR be the best source to find rentals?

I appreciate your thoughts and ideas. I will let everyone know how the school turns out. Thanks in advance for your help.

[Purple Frog]

Go for it!
There are many aged 60+ racing formula cars in SCCA. And many at the pointy end of the grid. Names like Weitzenhof, Moran, Jordan, Cooper come to mind.

I personally love wings. Started with wings.

In the SEDIV the FE class is very strong. Great group of guys. I personally would probaby rent from Mick Robinson, Robinson Motor Sports (RMS). Top Shelf guy.

Don't forget you also have Phil Creighton Motorsports in Cumming, and 10/Tenths Motorsports in Alpharetta. Both are experienced teams that can readily place you in a car.

[Garey Guzman]

nickster53,
Yes, there are lots of old folks - PF has known them all since their parents first brought them to the track!

Try to get a car appropriate to your comfort level. I went to SCCA school with a guy that had just retired and bought a really nice, pro-maintained FC. The car was too much for his comfort level and he didn't pass the school. I never saw him at the track again.

It's also important to decide if you A) like to work on your car, B) you'd rather not mess with it and keep it maintained by a prep shop or C) don't want to have to work on the car much but really can't afford to hire a prep shop. Different cars suit each of those to different extents.

I was given the advice to start without wings. For me, the abilty to afford racing was marginal and if I had to replace wings in addition to the broken noses and rear body pieces, I would have not been able to afford the amount of seat time I got. Also, I think I've learned a lot more about car control but I still have a lot to learn.

Probably the most important thing is that you enjoy your car. As PF noted, he likes wings. I now have both a winged car in addition to my FF. This thing is addicting!

[cgscgs]

Sounds like you are going about this in the right way, the Apex gang will give you lots of advice and encouragement.
I think there are 2 big reasons newbies are counseled to avoid winged cars. First is the added expense of parts that are likely to be damaged in an otherwise routine off or contact. Second is the added complexity in setup. I do my own work and the variables on a simple Club Ford (no aero) can be a bit overwhelming to me. If you rent from a shop that includes setup and support at the track, those guys can worry about that stuff while you learn your way around the track.
If that's what you want I say go for it!
Chuck

[nickster53]

Thanks for all of the responses so far. It sounds like renting a ride for the first year is the way to go if one can afford it. It also sounds like settling on a class without getting some stick time really doesn't make sense either.

Is it reasonable to treat the first year as an education year, getting track time but also evaluating the different ride options available? I know you really wouldn't get the class experience but it seems like track time is track time no matter what you are driving.

Garey, your question regarding the extent that I want to be involved in prep and maintenance is interesting. While I have thought about a bit, that is difficult to answer. I would like to be involved, but I really don't think I have the knowledge and skills to take it on myself. Will some of the prep shops help educate you along with prepping and maintaining the car? I guess a next logical step (other than going to the school next month) is to talk with some of the shops in my local area.

I was really taken by lancer360's experience at the double school at Roebling. I hope the Skippy experience is as good. It seems like the thing that I will really regret missing is meeting the people that I will be with during my first year.

Again, thanks for all of the great comments.

Nick

[nickster53]

I have been looking at the various forums and GCR and I don't quite understand the difference between FE and F SCCA (I notice the forum says FE is formally Formula SCCA but the GCR still says Formula SCCA), are they the same? Why the different terminology?

In going through the 2008 GCR I see several classes, is there an easy explanation/cross reference available? I tend to be very analytical and a cheat sheet would really help.

Sorry, I am sure I could find it somewhere, but after looking for a while I thought maybe others had the same question.

Thanks again,

Nick

[GT1Vette]

Nickster,

FE and FSCCA are the same thing - just a different name when they became an official National class.

Where are you in Alpharetta? I don't drive a formula car, but I have a fair amount of knowledge about them and I'm just up GA 140 toward Canton. We should get together to talk about your options. You'll have a much better idea of your comfort level after doing the Skippy School and that will help you when understanding the complexities of the GCR.

And I promise I won't try to talk you into a GTA car (unless you decide you'd rather have a roof over your head)...

Butch Kummer, 770-314-2031
Atlanta Region Competition Director
Purple Frog Racing Crew Chief

[Brian]

Many people start out with a Club Ford -many people stick with a Club Ford. For the money, a great way to get into a car and learn how to maintain it. For me, starting without wings is more about learning car setup and car control without the help or confusion of aero, but that's just me, maybe.

I won't comment much on having a prep shop teach you how to maintain your car. I wouldn't do that, personally, unless I was charging school fees as well as prep fees. My gut feeling is that if you're going to work on the car yourself, you will come into it with the skills to at least get started, and if you aren't you don't own the shop or the tools anyway.

Brian

[Tim FF19]

A non-wing car can be beneficial when learning. Even a small trip through the grass can damage the front wing easily. Besides the expense in repairing/replacing the wing, it can easily result in a loss of track time which is at a premium when learing. A non-wing car (FF or CFF) is much more forgiving in that it has a much better chance of going through the grass and getting back onto the track with no damage.

The driving experiance is very similar between FC and FF. If anything the non-wing cars put a bigger burden on the driver to be precise while driving, a good thing in my opinion. FE's are a spec car and has benefits and drawbacks. They will never handle as well as a well set up FF or FC due to the limitations put on basic tuning parts such as shocks and springs. The good part is that you never have to worry about how to tune the shocks or springs on the car which I highly recomend if you maintain the car yourself.

If it is in your budget, a prep shop can make the whole experiance much more fun and enjoyable, particularly at an early stage in your driving career.

Good Luck!

Tim Dunn

[racer27]

Biggest issue with a curb hopping excursion on most winged cars in the Diffusser. I've never had wing damage, but am constally repairing the diffusser. Eventually, they get beat up beyond repair and cost a min of $600 to replace.

[rickb99]

Where do you buy $600 diffusers? Ours is pretty beat up and we haven't even had the car on the track yet!

Pondering how to use the old one as a 'mold' to lay up a new one as it doesn't have baffles.

[cooleyjb]

Where do you buy $600 diffusers? Ours is pretty beat up and we haven't even had the car on the track yet!

Pondering how to use the old one as a 'mold' to lay up a new one as it doesn't have baffles.

I have 2 from here and they have held up to the abuse I have given them.

http://www.gyrodynamics.net/

[nickster53]

Thanks again for all of the great feedback.

[Steven McWilliams]

When, or if you buy any kind of car, make sure you get a prep shop to look over it, no matter if they're going to be at the track for you. Also, things happen at the track, and you have to be prepared, and let it go. I broke 3 CV joints, in 3 weekends. I once heard, "racing is 80% heartbreak, and 20% elation, but the elation keeps you coming back" that is very true.

[EYERACE]

frankly, in the past 12 years i don't think i've ever seen anyone trying to rent a CF or FF or non-winged-thing in the SouthEast....at least not a prep shop...maybe there is a private owner out there that does on rare occasions but renting a formula car in the southeast is pretty much limited to winged cars. i've thought to rent my Crossle 32F as either FF or CF but don't believe I could really be a good enough crew chief/mechanic when really called upon to know all the tricks of the trade to keep the car out there all weekend in the face of most every wierd senario that might come along from a newbie beating on the car.

[SStadel]

Nickster,

If things go well at Skippy, I see no reason why you shouldn't try an FE car. Yes, my first open wheel car was a Club Ford, but I was in my 20's. At your age and economic standpoint, you will have a blast with an FE. With Mick or any of the CSR's you will gain a lot of knowledge and be treated fairly I'm sure. If you have a desire to travel and check out the classis race tracks, you'll be able to rent a car that is almost identical to the one you're used to. I.e., if you'd like to race at Road America, you could rent an FE from me that would feel much like the car you rented from Mick. You could even have a seat made and take it with you to the different tracks/cars as they are all spec. Same goes for Watkins Glen and Motion Dynamics from that area, Laguna Seca and MLC Motorsports from that area, etc.

Obviously this is a little bit of a sales job, but since you mentioned FE, I though it appropriate to add a little fuel to that fire.

Steve Stadel

[nickster53]

Steve, just when I thought I could not be any more convinced that this could really fun, you dangle the carrot of driving places that I had always thought were "out of reach". Considering that I am going to Laguna Seca for my first experience, the thought of getting on to Road America, Sebring and the Glen is really exciting. That's probably even better than playing golf around the country. I guess I could bring my sticks too and play on Mondays. Nice retirement.

Thanks for the great idea, I wonder how many others have done that.

Nick

[rickjohnson356]

Since you are here in ATL, you can attend SCCA races at RD ATL, Savannah, Barber etc.

Of course, you have to join SCCA first. Then you can hook up with local guys that have the type of cars you are interested in (FORMULA CARS) and see what it is about at the track.

That will also help you decide if you want to take on any of the preparation. Some people do the basic maint (gear change, pre-race prep, etc) themselves but let the pros do the major work after crash damage etc.

The other advantage to arrive and drive is that you don't have to worry about having all the accessory stuff: tow vehicle, trailer, bunches of special tools..... etc.

I would vote for trying arrive-and-drive for the first few races for your case, (that way we can set the hook into you really good! ). It buys you time to have the fun side of this game without the hassle side. If you stil like it, buy a car in the fall after the racing season is over for 2008 and go for it in 2009.

[nickster53]

Rick, I spoke with Butch Kummer and joining the SCCA is the first thing on the agenda after I get back from the west coast. Next is going to Road Atalnta during the weekend of the nationals and meet some local people. I am also planning on meeting with Mick Robinson to look at the FE cars.

[GT1Vette]

Then you can hook up with local guys that have the type of cars you are interested in (FORMULA CARS) and see what it is about at the track.

You know, Rick, if I was a sensitive person I might be offended by that remark! Lucky for you I'm a calm, easy-going, 6'7", 280 lb. guy that's only interested in helping people that want to get into racing and would NEVER consider retribution for an insensitive statement like yours. I forget, did you say you want to actually be paddocked INSIDE the race track at Road Atlanta in the future?

I talked to Nick this morning and we live maybe a mile from each other. We're currently planning to get back together when he returns from Laguna (assuming he can stop grinning long enough to call me). From what we discussed about his history and interests, I'd currently recommend he go the FE route at least initially, but we'll see what his comfort level is with open-wheel after graduating from Skippy School.

Nick did ask if many people start racing in their 60's, and I couldn't really answer that question. I know there are a lot of us that have KEPT racing into our senior years, but I don't know of anyone that started at that point (Paul Newman started around 50 if I recall). Can any of you guys help out here?

BK

[rickjohnson356]

Thanks Butch, for showing your patience with my insensitive statements.

I guess you could call me a person starting in their 60's (sneaking up on 61 in april), I was active in the late 60's (1960's that is) and early 70's.

Dropped out when kids started arriving and have been trying to get situated to return to active participation since 2002 or so. paying for college is expensive especially two times!

If I still have problems in open-wheel cars, I MAY have to try a tin-top. I'm sure you can point me in that direction when the time comes.

PS: I have been working tech lately, are you sure your car will pass after a race? I may have to search some of the more obscure rules to see if you comply....
(wanna trade favors? I'll dq someone else if you let me inside the track )

[Garey Guzman]

.... I'm a calm, easy-going, 6'7", 280 lb. guy ....

Yup, Butch is a real sweetheart. But if he ever gets riled up, we do have a Formula car driver that Butch has to look up to!

Dave H, will you protect us from the taxi driver?