008 tub modifications and/or recalls

[campbell53]

Guys, this is a very informative board. I've had a real Atlantic education the past couple weeks. I have another question pertaining to 008 tub stiffening modifications. I've heard two things: 1) that all 008 tubs were recalled by Swift to cure the flex problem. IS this in fact true? 2) that Algie did a stiffening modification to a few 008s (to a higher standard possibly?) tubs thereby increasing their stiffness (and value) over a non-Algie tub.
I'm looking at a few 008's I'm trying to understand the differences between cars and if there is a premium to be paid for certain ones. Thanks!

[jcolbert666]

I don't have any knowledge one way or the other with regard to anything that Algie may or may not have done. What I do know is that following the conclusion of the first season ('98) that the 008's were raced, Swift recalled all of the tubs and attempt to stiffen them.

[campbell53]

thanks...that is what I heard too. Can anyone confirm this as well as explain what was done?

[quartzracer]

I don't have much info on the 008 vs. 014 tub, but my shop-mate owns an RT40, he researched the possibility of stiffening his tub to the same specs as an RT41 tub. All reputable carbon fiber shops were contacted and all gave him the honest answer that it would never be as stiff as the RT41. The tub was subsequently sent to a shop where they added some material to the critical areas and also raised the cockpit sides for safety. They estimated a 10-15 percent gain in stiffness.

[swede9]

The 008.a were recalled at the end of 1998, the problem was not flexing it was the floor and seat back would crack and delaminate when the bottom would strike a curb or bottom heavily. The outer skin was replaced with a thicker laminate, the core was replaced with a heavier core. Then a horse shoe shaped collar was added to the inside floor and lower seat back to further stiffen the floor and spread the load further up the seat back. The floor and seat back were strenghtened with a thicker laminate on the 014.a. However if someone hits a curb with enough force it will still crack the floor on either car, the chassis can also crack from the same force around the lower engine mount that is laminated into the chassis.

The main stiffening point of the 008.a was the addition of the 014.a cockpit close out ring around the top of the opening. Algie also made a close out ring for the DB4. I have also seen thicker dash bulkheads in some cars.

[campbell53]

outstanding information guys. Thanks a million.

[Charles Warner]

What this thread really points out is that anyone considering buying a carbon tubbed car (Reynard, Swift, Ralt) needs to be aware of the pitfalls that can arise. It's very easy to repair the surface of a tub without attending to any inner damage (either delibreately or by mistake.) Unless you KNOW the exact history of a tub from Day One any well used tub, especially if it comes from a pro team, must be suspect. Stay AWAY from any display cars! It is possible to X-ray the tub and this is about the only way to be sure. I believe there are some ultra-sound methods but those would probably be prohibitively expensive. Although, taking a look at the Ferrari F1 that split in half maybe the costs are not too OTT. Maintaining these cars is a lot different than maintaining a monocoque car. What seems like a simple gouge on the underside could be an indication of serious internal damage.

[Mark McDonough]

Yes, conclusion of the 98 season resulted in a number of upgrades to the 008. As sweed mentions, the cockpit close out ring was one componet, the lower floor re-informent was another. One of the major mods though were tub stiffners found on the outside forward section of the tub. I have seen 008's and 014's w/o these for some reason?? There were also an upgrade during the 98 season for the chassis. Basically the change over for wheel spindles was to the "oval" configuration of center lock spindles vs. stub axles.

[Rick Ross]

Mark,

It was my understanding that the 008 tubs had external panels bonded to the forward sides of the tub, primarily to act as anti-intrusion panels as opposed to tub stiffeners. Are these the panels that you are referring to???

The 014 tub was designed with thicker/stronger tub sides, making these anti-intrusion panels unnecessary. In fact, the 014 tub was stronger than the 008 in several aspects. I recall reading in a Swift document that the bare 014 tub was about 45% stiffer than the 008 tub in torsion. I've never seen any data on how the 008 tub would compare after the post-1998 modifications.

[Mark McDonough]

Hi Rick,

That is my understsanding as well and yes, it sounds like those are the panels I'm referring to. The design intent of the forward side panels was for anti intrusion as a safty precaution after some real life episodes. I beleive the event that prompted this design change was a big shunt at the 98 or 99 Pocono round. If I'm not mistaken, it was also this round that led to the design change for upgraded wheel hubs vs. the older spindel design as well. Subsequent testing on the tub with these panels showed a noticiable improvement in torsional stiffness. Again, my understanding from Swift. With this comment, I was trying to provide campbell53 with some insight into the visable charecteristics of the 008. Swede mentions some excellent points here of the not so obvious generational improvements that were done throughout the 008's running history. The floor area foward of the fuel cell access is definatley something to try to check out for lamination, cracking. The rear engine mount and mounting interface hardware is also an area to give close scrutiny, though it's hard to fully investigate with the covers on. A year ago we became more familiar with the Swift tub, having upgraded an 008 to an 014 spec (see attached file). I would be very curious to understand where you have seen the 014 tub as being stronger in several aspects than the 008. 45% is a whole bunch! Would you have some insight on this?

Mark

[Rick Ross]

Hi Mark,

That 45% increase in torsional stiffness was mentioned in an SAE paper written by Swift engineers regarding the development of the 014. The pdf file is too large to attach a copy here, but you may be able to find it via this link:

http://www.swiftengineering.com/uplo...002MSEC-87.pdf

If this doesn't work I will e-mail it to you. As I recall, the 014 tub had additional laminates so was in general "stronger" than the 008 tub. The 014 also had a new trunion design which also contributed to increased overall chasis torsional stiffness. But please don't take my work on any of this......read the paper and verify that this information is correct.

Rick

[Charles Warner]

A 45% increase in torsional rigidity from one model to the next is well within reason. The change from the Ralt RT-40 to the RT-41 was something in the range of a 200% increase. My failing memory precludes the exact numbers.

[swede9]

Mark,

It was my understanding that the 008 tubs had external panels bonded to the forward sides of the tub, primarily to act as anti-intrusion panels as opposed to tub stiffeners. Are these the panels that you are referring to???

These panels were added to protect the Tub and driver from intrusion of the front wheel during a crash on the ovals. The BBS one piece aluminum wheels were extremely stiff and would get stuck between the tub and wall during a crash on an oval, even more so when WEAD Ropes were added. They did not add to the torsional stiffness of the chassis. CART made them mandatory on all ovals in July of 1999 after numerous crashes, however teams could remove them for RC's. The pictures are of Besnard's car at Gateway 1999, prior to adding the intrusion panels.
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[Mark McDonough]

The attached photos provide some insight into the 008 tub construction methods and also show the external tub reinforcement plate mentioned here. The sanctioning body made this plate mandatory and Swift issued a technical bulletin to that effect. The plate is bonded to the external portion of the tub in a manner consistant with composite construction techniques. The plate runs from just forward of the fuel cell access area to the rear upper A arm mounting point.

Swift issed many technical bulletins over the course of the cars history in comepetition, some a result of on track episodes, some a result of testing improvemnets. A good place to begin when evaluating any car is a complete review of upgrades for every technical bulletin that was issed by Swift.

[Rick Ross]

Mark,

What is the best source for the Swift Technical Bulletins?

[Mark McDonough]

Hi Rick,

I would suggest contacting Swift in San Clemente. Tony Underwood is a good person to start with there. These bulletins would of course generally be delivered with the car if aquired from a Pro team that had no need of the data once the car was sold. Some Pro teams w/ good documentation may be a resource. If you dont get anywhere, please post a note or drop a line. I have all Tech Bulletins in hard copy format and can be converted to .pdf's.

Mark

[Rick Ross]

Thank you, Mark. I do not have an immediate need for the bulletins, but I have two friends who have recently purchased Swifts, and I will make sure that they are aware of this. Thanks for your assistance.