Difference between FF and FC and buying advice

[Driftaholic]

Greetings,

After many years with street cars, I decided to switch to open wheels. I have the following questions:

1- What is the difference between FF and FC. Any reason why I should avoid one in favor of the other?

2- Are there differences between the 1600 and 2000 other than engine displacement and wings? Can you put wings on a FF1600?

3- When you buy a street car, it comes with a title. Is that the same for formula cars? What legal stuff should I ask for so that I become the owner of a used formula car?

4- Should I look for something else as long as it is between $8k and $12k?

5- I found a 1985 Reynard chassis with a Quicksilver built engine. Is that a good chassis, engine, and chassis/engine combination?

I look forward to your replies

Thank you

[JIM McQUAIG]

do yourself a large favor and hook up with a reliable shop or knowledgeable person in your area. let them help you do this or you are going to get in serious trouble. attend some races,ask questions and keep your eyes open. if you want to travel south there are some good races at sebring , long course, the weekend after thanksgiving.probably will be some good national teams there doing testing for january national. if you get started on the correct path it will make your racing life alot easier. good luck

[TimW]

While working with a pro prep shop is great advice, you can make good decisions on how to enter open wheel racing without them. I know there are many people on this board, many of which are near you that would be more than happy to help you make good decisions on your entry into the sport. I know if there was someone who was contemplating buying a ford or continental in my area I would go and see a car that is for sale you may be considering and try to assess its preparation and value.

Informaiton is king; and many on this board will help you gain enough to make a good decision.

To answer your specific questions:

1) formula continental is a derivitive of formula ford, so they are similar. The are based in different but similar Pinto engines; fords make about 113bhp at 1100lbs while continentals make ~147bhp at 1190lbs. As with sedans, speed costs money, though its arguable that a top flight ford program prolly costs as much as a top flight continental program. Its prolly also arguable that an entry level ford is on par with an entry level continental, cost wise. You get about 15-20 hours on each moter between rebuilds; I think the ford rebuilds are usually less expensive but will let a continental driver offer his perspective since I've only had a ford rebuilt. My belief that the running costs of FF are lower as I only damage a nose when I go off instead of damaging a nose, wing, end plates, flap, winglet, etc. But I only have first hand knowledge of fixing a nose...so YMMV.

Neither one is particularly one to avoid, it comes down to your preference for speed, cost and how big the fields are around where you run. Formula ford was originally designed as a low cost entry level driver learning class and FC was one step beyond that by adding wings and some more power.

2) big picture differences are engine power, wings and wheel size. several cars have converted from FC to FF by adapting it to the smaller engine & wheels (carbs are on opposite sides so bodywork changes, FF mechanical fuel pump is usually in the way on a car designed for FC, brakes need to adapt to fit over narrower wheels, etc). FF is specifically a non-aerodynamic class, so no you can't add wings.

3) Race cars are not titled. However, if buying a car you intend to run in SCCA its best that its logbooks and homologation certificate are part of the sale. if they are not it is a several hundred dollar expense to replace and the price of the car should reflect that. You can ask the seller for a bill of sale and should; it might be wise to reequest the seller to indemnify you in the event someone comes around thinking they own the car, but the chances of that are extremely low.

4) entry level FF & FC fit in your budget. I suspect F500 & FV will as well.

5) it depends on what you want to do with it. If its the starter car you can afford to get on the track now and learn prep & driving, then great. If you want to win a national championship with it you might want to look for something substantially more modern. But that won't be in your budget. I would suggest cars that are fairly prevalent in the class as there will be more informaiton about them that will be shared with you that allow you to learn from others which is quicker (and in the case of some cars safer) and less aggro. I would say the reynard fits in that but so do others. name engine builders are good, but also investigate who rebuilt it last. If it was a quicksilver motor rebuilt by the previous owner who knew what he was doing, prolly a good deal to have the pro lineage. If its a quicksilver motor but the owner rebuilt it poorly then its not. Need to ask questions and sense when the seller is being forthright with you. Overall preparation quality is an indicator of the quality of the car itself.

There was a used race car buyers checklist/advice/guide on the web when I bought mine, but I can't seem to get it to appear via Google. Perhaps someone has the link bookmarked and will post it.

Feel free to email directly if you have more questions.

Tim

[FC63F]

FC and FF - both are excellent classes of cars that start with frames that are interchangable in many cases - for example a 98 Van Diemen can be had in both ff and fc trim. both run simular suspension, brakes, shocks and trans. Engines are different - the 1600 is a push rod with $110+/- HP and the 2000 is an overhead cam motor with about 140-150 HP. The HP differential allows you to trade some of the HP for aero devices that will provide downforce at the expense of drag. That downforce enables more speed through the corners and later onset of braking. That downforce enables a quicker lap assuming you use the what is available. FF can deliver from 1.2 to 1.5 lateral G's and the data logger on my Reynard shows 2 g's are poasible if you drive it right - i have seen data logger with higher G- loading - but that is track and speed dependent.

Both engines are ancient - 1960's and 1970's vintage. The 2 liters are fairly robust with the upgraded rods and pistons - the 1600's are a little more fragile. The wings are vulnerable to being dinged, dented etc if you go off -- and you will but repairs in many cases are not a big deal. You cannot put wings on a FF - illegal and you must have wings on a FC

Both cars have good class participation - we were running about 14-18 FC and CFC (1990 and older FC's) in the Great Lakes Challenge and the FF's including club fords were doing about the same in their east west challenge. Both classes have their proponents.

Picking the car in the class is the challenge - there are good chasis and bad or lessor chassis in both classes - further, there are cars that are in good condition and those that look good but are used up. Get a pro to inspect any car you are really considering and buy cars that you have seen with your eyes actually racing - there are lots of garage queens sitting waiting for you to drop major $$. Buy as good a car from a condition standpoint as you can afford - I know from experience that doing a propoer IRAN (inspect and repair as necessary before you go racing the first time will have at least one ugly surprise that will cost you - As I recall when I bought my Crossle 63F we paid about 9K for the car and then dropped another $3-4K over the first winter on fasteners, rod ends, plumbing, wiring, gages trans seals, gears for the local track, safety harness, vinyl numbers and letters, halon refill, gas cans, floor jacks, various absolutely necessary tools etc and that was only the start. Oh yes, I forgot the trailer nd the rented tow vehicle...

Major manufactueres include for both FF and FC; Van Diemen, Swift, Citation, Reynard, Crossle, This web site properly serched can provide a good foundation but get someone who has been around for a while in formula cars to help you. It took me a year to find the right car the first time out (avoid that Reynard 85F - that was a pretty car with horrible handling). If you like Reynards try the lovely and potent 87-90 SF for CFC- There are no titles but you will want log books back to day one and homologation papers from the FIA or SCCA for the car to be legal.

If your budget is $8-12 K for the car - then consider Club Ford or Club Formaula Continental - these are older cars and great examples can be obtained for $8-12K depending upon spares and other issues - I am fortunate to drive a CFC Reynard 90SF and while not as fast as the latest zetek - they are very competitive regionally in the right hands (Not mine) The value of these classes is $$ to enter and technology is essentially fixed - they are less easily obsoleted within the class and fairly easy to set up and keep them set up.


Find a team and crew for them for a season - you will learn a lot about what to do and more importantly not to do. Good Luck inyour search

David Keep
Reynard 90SF

[Purple Frog]

In my humble opinion, an '85 Reynard is not a good starter car in the $8k to $12K range. The '85 was a one-off year, plagued with some difficult idiosyncracies for a beginner to overcome.

There are many good CFC cars for a beginner, selling in the +/- $10K range. But remember, buying the car is only the tip of the 'cash black hole' iceberg. Have you read all the archived threads in the "Getting Started" section. Goes back quite a few years, but still valid. Lots of great info... for free.

[John Nesbitt]

There was a used race car buyers checklist/advice/guide on the web when I bought mine, but I can't seem to get it to appear via Google. Perhaps someone has the link bookmarked and will post it.

http://formularacingservices.com/How_to_Buy_a_U.html


The pricing may be a little out of date, but good advice.

When you find a good candidate, have a local prep shop knowledgeable in open wheel inspect it before you buy. It could be the best money you ever spend.

[SWMyers]

One thing to factor in is which class is stronger in the region and at the tracks at which you are likely to race. Here in the Michigan, FC & CFC are strong and FF is almost dead. However on the East and West coast FF is still very strong and in some areas much more popular than FC/CFC. If I lived in one of those areas I'd probably be racing in FF instead of CFC. Most guys want to race in a class that has sufficient numbers to assure good racing and competitor support.

So check out recent race results in your area of the country to see if one class is particularly dominant. That may help you make your choice.

[Larry]

Cf and CFC are regional-only classes. Not all regions run them, but the cars can still run as FF or FC. Since you are in Texas, give Mike Sauce a call (he's in Dallas vicinity). Mike is knowledgeable of most of the cars in the area, and he's a straight-shooter.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products