Who will win FF - Vegas line

[RussMcB]

What type of port do you use to connect a tin can and a string...???

I'm grateful for being able to hear some kind of commenting, but it kept drifting off station.

"Come in, Tokyo. Do you read?"

I hope the get that fixed. It's awful. Better than nothing, tho.

[Drivers Services]

Lap 10 I'm up on top of the Dragstrip stands.

Kautz has joined the Langbien D'addario party and are closing on Barret.

What a difference the view from up here is. JR and TC are really going at it in the autocross section JR's faster thru the chicane at 8/9 but TC eats him up thru 10, 11,12. Good stuff

TC keeps trying to stick his nose inside heading into 14 but it's not netting him anything other than maybe annoying JR

Lap 12 JR's car is getting noticeably loose and TC gets by and starts to get a gap but by lap 14 TC looks to have lost his tires as well. They're going about the same speed now but that small gap TC built up on laps 13 and 14 might just be enough to win him a National championship.

Mean while Oseth is holding on to third just ahead of Shippert. Then there is a gap back to Barret who is holding onto 5th for dear life with Kautz and Langbien taking turns trying to get by him. D'Addario is in line right behind them but not threatening. Then a gap back to Leonard who has recovered from his spin and is running by himself

[AFBENSON]

Congrats to John R II, Rollin Butler and James Lee. Certainly a powerful performance and a winning team.

[Drivers Services]

TC drives off in turn six, JR shoots by back into the lead. Oh no!!!!! TC's just given away the race. JR now enjoys the same lead TC had over him just moments ago. It's going to finish JR, TC, Oseth then Shippert.

5th on the other hand........

It's the last lap will Barret hold on? Kautz wants by, Langbien's motor looks a little soft and D'Addario looks content to follow Langbien.

Kautz finally gets it done, Barret has lost 5th place on the last lap of the runoffs for the 2nd straight year.

That's your finish JR,TC,Oseth,Shippert, Kautz, Barret, Langbien,D'Addario, And your top DB1/3 Leonard.

Other notes Kephart called it a race on about lap 12 and drove in to the pits, Cliff followed him in about a lap later and finally about a lap later Hollingshead. All under their own power with all corners attached.

Stan Townes finished the race with way too much front toe having come together with someone in 10, losing a drag race to the finish with Mark Keller.

The boneyard has 4 cars in it. None to bad, the worst probably Hickhams.

That's it. Your 2007 FF national champion is John Robinson.

Now let me tell you about a cool CSR race..........................

Later,
Jim

[Rob Howden]

Hey folks,

We've got an audio interview with John Robinson over on EFCN.

http://www.eformulacarnews.com/news_info.php?n=3011

[Purple Frog]

How about some pictures...

[Purple Frog]

more pictures from today...

[Bob Coury]

Congratulations for doing it again John!

[stonebridge20]

Jim, Thanks for all your reports. They have been great comming from someone that really knows how to drive one of these cars. I think the only thing that would have been better is you doing a live audio. I have been one of the lucky few to here you do live "play by play" and there's nothing funnier!

Mike

[Drivers Services]

Steve,

The diffusor was protested and found to be legal.
The wheel covers went unprotested - though it may have been a different story if Bill was further up the grid.
The splitters came off voluntarily after a warning from tech. One can be seen in the pictures in this thread on the #4 car.

Mike A,
Thanks and it was my pleasure. Time to get wet in an FA race.

Later,
Jim

[Art Smith]

Jim-

thanks for your outstanding running commentary, knowledgeable insights, entertaining asides, and pictures; they've made the RunOffs an interesting and fun experience for a great many of us who didn't attend this year!! your posts and the Frog's posts have been by far the best source of timely news for those of us sitting at a computer versus wandering around the paddock.

what was the nature of the warning(s) from "tech" on splitters (they're clearly not an airfoil device)? were the warnings linked to a specific paragraph? I find it a little curious splitters drew warnings and other things apparantly didn't...........

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[steve zemke]

Jim,
Thanks for the update on the splitter question. I have been told many times I can't see anything in my mirrors but I certainly don't see anything on the number 4 car that looks out of place. Maybe we can get the owner/ driver of the number 4 to add some clarification. Thanks again to you and Froggie for the great coverage.

[Frank C]

Jim - Thanks for the excellent commentary through the week and of the race. I took some pictures of Cliff Johnson's Piper (#4) when he first had it out last year. In looking at those pictures, I only see a small splitter. The eFormula grid pictures look about the same. There is a nice picture from the June HPT National at http://www.alectophoto.com/alectopho...13406-6052.htm

It is just a little clearer and what I see agrees with my pictures from last year - maybe a 1 - 1.5 inch splitter.

- Frank C

[Purple Frog]

John gave a great podium speech. Thanked his dear wife, James Lee, Rollin Butler, Doug Learned, and Goodyear. Had nice words for Tony. Said he might have to travel more to find Tony in order to race again.

He had a small little kidding jab at another driver. Steve Oseth plied me with drinks last night to get me to repeat on this site.

[John Robinson II]

Steve,

The diffusor was protested and found to be legal.


Later,
Jim

Just a quick update as I have had 1 hour of sleep in 36, the diffuser was protested as a venturi tunnel and the configuration was changed from the time the protest was filed, wed eve, and the stewards viewed the car, thurs morn. I believe it was in a different configuration for the race I could not tell from my vantage in the car on grid and the "blue towel covered the area. More later as diffusergate will continue on.

I would like to thank Tony for a very fun race. I asked him afterwards if he wanted to do it again as I hate to wait a whole year for more close competition. Exciting race and I cant wait to see the video. Maybe by then I will have the tire marks cleaned off the car. One other quick side note, the uncleanliness of the track did not allow for any variance of the line through most turns, especially 1, 3 3 & 10.

The Coellos are fierce competitors and very literal rule translators.

John

[Drivers Services]

Frank, Steve, Art


I actually just happened to be standing with Cliff in his paddock spot when a friendly roving tech guy pulls up on his golfcart, hops off, and tells Cliff his front splitter is Illegal (I got the impression they had spoken before) because it's "Licked by the airstream on both the top and bottom" and that his is not really the problem but someone else's was really flagrant and he's gonna get caught out by it. I bit my tongue, Cliff made a comment that if you flip the car over the splitter is covered by the outline of the bodywork. A confused look came over the Tech guys face and he got back on his pitcart and left.
I was actually surprised the next day on the false grid to see Cliff had trimmed it back.

Hope that answers your Q's

Later,
Jim

[steve zemke]

Jim,
Sure does, and thanks again for all your insightful reports.

[R. Pare]

The splitter could only be considered illegal if it were outside of the controlled area - ie - ahead of the front tire centerline. At that point it could possibly be considered "an extension of the undertray for purposes of downforce". However, the counterarguement would be that if you stuck a pointed nose above the front splitter on a DB1 and the new nose extension shadowed the splitter, applying the "logic" of "an extension" would be ludricous, as the splitter itself has not changed one iota.

The arguement that "it has air flowing on both the top and the bottom" is a non-starter, as there is NO rule against that. ONLY if it were shaped as an airfoil could they have a case, BUT, as Bruns originally argued when the DB1 tail was protested, an airfoil must have both a leading and a trailing edge, or it isn't an airfoil. The splitter has no trailing edge as it blends directly into the underside of the nose, and therefore is not an airfoil as established per the SCCA Appeals Court 23 years ago.

The swept-up undertray could be considered legal as it fits the measurement definition as stated for that defined area. If it were outside of the defined area, that's another story, and the basis on which the rule change was enacted 7 years ago. However, since the rules do not limit the area in which diffusors are banned, then it could be considered to run afoul of that rule. The problem is that there has never been a definition of exactly what constitutes a diffusor, so the arguement then would be that if something is not defined, then a shape that does not fit the non-defined object cannot be stated as being that object.

This crap really gets rediculous after a while!

[Richard Hybels]

Purple Frog wrote: "John gave a great podium speech. Thanked his dear wife, James Lee, Rollin Butler, Doug Learned, and Goodyear. Had nice words for Tony. Said he might have to travel more to find Tony in order to race again."

Hell John could have thanked me for selling him the car back in 03 or so. Could not have done it without me!!
My one brush with racing greatness. I had Porter build it for me even though I knew I'd be just as slow as I always was. That makes five Runoff winners that Porter originally put together.
Congrats to him and John.

[John Robinson II]

Richard,
Just a small clarification, this is not the same car I got from you. I purchased this one for spares, after finding cracks in my original chassis, I converted this one. THe only parts moved over were the shocks (rebuilt by Stimola), the CDS system (have since added a copilot 2) and the calipers. Almost forgot I went back to the original FC bodywork.

So there may be 2 DB-6 on the market soon, both with national championships.

John

[Larry]

It sounds like you had another great race--and displayed equally great sportsmanship in the process!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[John Robinson II]

Frank, Steve, Art


I actually just happened to be standing with Cliff in his paddock spot when a friendly roving tech guy pulls up on his golfcart, hops off, and tells Cliff his front splitter is Illegal (I got the impression they had spoken before) because it's "Licked by the airstream on both the top and bottom" and that his is not really the problem but someone else's was really flagrant and he's gonna get caught out by it. I bit my tongue, Cliff made a comment that if you flip the car over the splitter is covered by the outline of the bodywork. A confused look came over the Tech guys face and he got back on his pitcart and left.
I was actually surprised the next day on the false grid to see Cliff had trimmed it back.

Hope that answers your Q's

Later,
Jim

Jim,
I think this also falls into the catagory of attachments that are for the purpose of creating downforce or ground effects. I believe this is where Tim Kautz also ran afoul of the tech guys. Strangely enough TC also had the attachments to the side of his car and went through qual tech with no issues. The arguement was made that the swifts have the same thing in the stock bodywork. It was clarified to me that the swifts are part of the bodywork and not an attachment, therefore, legal. If TC or Kautz were to have glassed over the angles then they would be legal.

Once again, the rules need to be rewritten to make them clearer. THere was also a big stink in post race impound, seems the the carb face of the intake manifold only has the size listed for the original motor. THose dimensions were trying to be imposed on the uprated motor as well. Based on that, there were no leagl engines at the race. All 3 in impound were the same exact size, Rollin Butler, Jay Ivey and Eric Oseth were constantly arguing with the tech guys, to the point I left, packed up the pit site and returned to get my car and go home, win, lose or dqed. It was nonsensical. Tech was pretty much a shambles this year. Ironically the carb side of the intake was not on the compliance check list.

John

PS as another side note, the tech guy was removed, dont know why just that after helping us with clarifications and how he would report to the stewards if a protest was filed he was no longer around.

[Bill Johnson 42]

Congrats to John for a great win and to Tony for a great run. These 2 were clearly the class of the field and had everyone else covered in every session all week long. The previous track record on this configuration was a 1.39 something by Tony Coello. All but 4 cars qualified under that track record with John and Tony at over 3 seconds under the old record.

Oseth had motor problems the first of the week and had little track time, with more time he might have been right there. Ethan Shippert had a good week, drove a great race and was right with Oseth the whole time.

Someone needs to tell me why this class can't get throught turn 1 without tearing up a bunch of cars. I qualified a dissapointing 12th and joked the whole week that I was in exactly the wrong spot for the start. I had a decent start but held back a little going over the hill at Alpha because I could tell by the way cars were moving around that something bad was going to happen and of course it did. Kephart and I both had to go through the grass to miss cars flying across the track and we moved to last and next to last place. I had to pit a lap later under yellow to clean all the grass out of my radiators because the temp was up to 240 so I moved to last. Kephart and I tried multiple times to get around a Swift and move up but everytime we made a move he just moved over and blocked us. After a couple laps of this the Swift spun and collected my car in turn 3. And Jim, just to set the record straight, there was no steering wheel toss - my dash/data is part of my steering wheel and connected to the car via cable so it can't go anywhere. There was no helmet throwing. I did throw one of my gloves at the ground enthusiastically but that's it. The Swift driver did walk by and apologize on our way to the corner station. The corner workers were very nice. All in all very frustrating.

The protest on Tonys car was legit and they fixed it. The rest of the tech stuff was a joke. Our rules for bodywork are poorly written and left to the interpratation of a different group of tech people each year. The tech people quoted things and made judgements on things that just flat out aren't in the book. We need to work to fix that.

[teamwisconsin]

I'd like to add my congrats to John as well, I hear it was a great race! I had my mirrors, then face full of Oseth's Citation! It was great meeting lots of you guys, and (quick shameless plug) I've gotta say thanks to Brad Baytos, and also throw in a quick plug for Ron Chisholm, my engineer (if you wanna go faster, call Ron) and of course Jay Ivey who helped all week, and all season long. After 11 seasons in Formula Vee's, I don't know why I didn't get in Fords sooner. The tech stuff was confusing, I wish it wasn't like that. Overall, I had a great time though, and maybe we surprised a couple of people. See you all next year!
-Ethan

[Garey Guzman]

Again, thanks to all who contributed reports and pictures for us home- and work-bound wannabes (I'm speaking for myself). Between PF and Jim, it was the next best thing to being there.

Do any of you competitors wanna share insights and suggestions for those of us who hope to make the RunOffs soon?
How critical was testing?
How critical was qualifying?
How many sets of tires did you use? (Got any extra? )
How were the passing opportunities (not counting both leaders going off track)?
How many crew folks are a minimum to bring? (Not counting super-China)
Should we go for it next year or wait (hope) for a new venue in 2009?

Ethan - worth the drive?

[IDSRacing]

Well done Ethan. Amazing run for your first FFord Runoffs. It was nice to see two vee guys right up at the pointy end of the field

Ian

[M.Sauce]

Ethan- Great job!I personally had one of my normal Runoffs week with no track time until the last day and was able to get 4 laps on Thursday qualifying and wind up 8th.I want to apologize to Cliff for us getting together,I supposed he saw me in turn 3 and turn 5 but I guess he didn't.I could have waited. Cliff and I have had some really great races without ever touching wheels and this one did not happen that way.Congrats to John R. and to Tony Coello, truly they came prepared and showed the way all week.As for the comments made by B. Johnson on bodywork rules ,I have been around FF for many years and the rulebook does not say you can have a diffuser.I also think some wording needs to be changed.For those of you that were at the Runoffs in 06, was the track an improvement?I liked it better but passing zones are difficult to find if the car being passed does not want you to.I look forward to any comments on the track.See you next year.

[Drivers Services]

Bill,

Sorry I got that wrong, I really thought that white full face helmet rolling downhill inside the corner worker station wall was yours.
Let's just say your immediate and enthusiastic reaction to the incident left no doubt to those of us watching your feelings as to who was at fault.
Sorry you got caught up in the schmazzle, you looked better and better as the week wore on. Almost as if the closeness of the competition was pulling you along.

Later,
Jim

[teamwisconsin]

Thanks for the kind words Ian! Oseth and I showed a few of these guys that the ex-swingaxle rear/trailing arm front suspension guys can do okay when you give us a real suspension! When are you going to get one of these beasties?

Garey, the drive was well worth it (although I was a little woozy last night about 2 ayem). Testing was incredibly important; having never seen the track, and having only a few notes from watching James Hakewill's incar laps from last year to go from. I brought 5 sets of tires; one for each test day, and three sets to spread out for the week of qualifying/warm-up/race. I've got a few sets of 175's with light cycles if you're interested. (cheap! anyone else interested? call me...)

Passing was okay; not ideal, but I guess if you're determined enough, you can make it stick anywere. I'd say at least as tough as pre-2004 Mid-Ohio. If I was to imbue any wisdom I learned, hmmm... bring a variety of clothes, and BIG weights for your awning.

Mike, it was great to meet you, I was really bummed to see your car in the crash-area post race. Hopefully the damage wasn't too bad.

As far as all the aero stuff goes- I had NO idea any of that was happening. I was wondering what the blue towel on the back of Coello's car on the false grid was, but I couldn't turn my head far enough, and I'm doubtful I could have seen anyting from where I was stitting. Hey, we did alright with original (still in Horgas' yellow gelcoat under a few coats of flat black) RF97 bodywork. Now I've tasted the insanity that is FF runoffs, I'm in for life...
-Ethan

[John Robinson II]

[quote=Garey Guzman;152555]How critical was testing? Yes, especially if you dont know the track, it is fairly easy to get quick but fast is a different story, and you need to be willing to let it hang out. The car has to rotate and let you get back on the power quickly.

How critical was qualifying? Per your idol, C Smith, VERY IMPORTANT, notice any patterns at the start of almost every FF runoffs?

How many sets of tires did you use? (Got any extra? ) I used 6 sets, could have gotten away with less, but that was determined from our long run testing on both scuffs and stickers. Let me add that the tires we got there performed differently then the ones we have been running here in the SE. Maybe newer???

How were the passing opportunities (not counting both leaders going off track)? If the track had been even somewhat cleaner off line, there would have been more, but TC passed me in 3, dove under me and forced me out on the chunks of DOT tires. I passed him in 10. 11-14 is a tough pass, but you can set up a T1 pass with a good run out of 14 if you can get along side enough before alpha, IMO that section of the tracks sucks for setting a passing opportunity, T1 is possible with 2 drivers willing to race side by side, if 1 isnt then you cant.

How many crew folks are a minimum to bring? (Not counting super-China) 1 crew should be enough, lots of time once the week starts to screw up the car before the next 10 to 20 minute session the next day.

Should we go for it next year or wait (hope) for a new venue in 2009? I would bet money that it will be in Topeka for as long as the lease on the office. I was told by a comp board member that the RFPs had not been drawn up yet, at least as far as he knew.

I will say this, no matter where the runoffs are held, if you want the best FF racing in the country, you will have to go there, the sprints might have been better, but it is going to turn into running FFs on FV tires before it is over with (remember 5.5 is the max width) especially if recent interpertations of the bodywork rules are the norm.

More later,
John

[andyllc]

I think the runoffs at Road America would be amazing, especially in a FF however it almost makes the June Sprints a mandatory event and I don't know how well that would pan out....I agree that Topeka will probably be THE place for a very long time, good or bad......

[SOseth]

Ethan;
Had great fun racing with you. You were extremely quick and clean all week. While I agree that the track is somewhat more challenging in its current configuration, for classes like FV and FF the passing opportunities are dramatically reduced and more dangerous. After driving the track, I would have preferred that they had left 1 & 2 as it was last year and changing 8 & 9 to this years configuration. That would have given people the fast turns they wanted while allowing a safe passing zone into 1 & 2.

SteveO

[Drivers Services]

[Quote John Robinson II

Jim,

Rollin Butler, Jay Ivey and Eric Oseth were constantly arguing with the tech guys, to the point I left, packed up the pit site and returned to get my car and go home, win, lose or dqed. It was nonsensical. Tech was pretty much a shambles this year. Ironically the carb side of the intake was not on the compliance check list.

John








John,

Post race impound in CSR went very smoothly and quickly, So much depends on the indivual "technicians" in tech. We were released just in time to catch the ford race. Gotta be near record time. Rules will always overlap, requiring interpretation. Not everybody interprets a sentence the same way. Some are more analytical, others more literal and yes some just don't have a clue. (Several years ago I had a customer who had one of the early HANS devices, A tech guy having seen it in pit lane, went to the effort of tracking us down in the paddock to attempt to order us to remove it. Saying it was illegal. Something about a driver restraint not being permanently attached to the car.) Others, who know a little, can be even more dangerous.
I left tech thinking they've gotten more knowledgable, less confrontational, more than willing to listen and most importantly that they wanted to get it right, something that couldn't necassarily be said just a few years ago.
Never been much of a "protest" type of a guy, but I have spent a fair amount of time in impound, I think in general they've gotten better.

There's a saying that goes something like

It's not a bad thing, it's just a fact. Somewhere in the world is the world's worst dentist.

The bad thing is that somebody has an appointment with him for 2PM tommorow!!!

Sounds like FF got the bad dentist.

Later,
Jim

[Richard Hybels]

Thanks for the clarification. I'd be tempted to buy my old one back since I've resumed racing but I'd have to put it in the closet with all those jeans I can't wear anymore till I lose weight.
Hats off to you. I'm glad it went to a good home. What's next for you??


Hybels

[johnd]

Ethan:

Great job, sorry Dave couldn't have been there with you after the start. Please stay in touch. Likewise, if your racing travels take you out to this part of the country, please give a call or drop an e-mail (I think that you have Dave's cell #).

By the way, who do we have to thank for getting Dave so cheered (or beered) up Friday night?


John, MaryAnn and Dave

[bryancohnracing]

I throughly enjoyed watching the race from Pit Lane while working radios for my good friend Mark Blythe, who btw won the Hard Charger for moving up from 23rd to 11th, setting his best lap of the week in the process!

With two strong groups of cars running for 3rd-10th and 11th on back early on it was a fantastic show! Racing for your life for 20th is what it is all about! (at least for us mortals)

A question based upon an observation:

Can anyone name the last time Harry Sauce completed lap one at a Runoffs?

Mike S, good to see you again, sorry your string of rotten Runoffs luck continued.

Bill, Cliff and Tim, good hanging out again. Damn I miss running with everyone, even if I'd get my butt kicked these days...

These are my opinions and in no way reflect the opinions or comment of anyone but me.

Bryan

[KOTR17]

First off I want to send out a big congratulations to John Robinson and Mr. Lee, you guys did a great job all week! Well done!

As for me, well I was one weird bobble away from a National Championship but even as heart braking as it was I had a blast. The race John and I had was a lot of fun and should make for some great TV if SPEED was able to capture even half of our dicing. I have to thank Jay Ivey for a killer engine all year and Bruce Foss/Hoosier tires. Those guys put a lot of hard work into my program this year and deserved a win! My Dad and brothers deserve the biggest thanks, everyone in my family along with my girlfriend chipped in this year to give me a hand and without their help I never could even get to the races much less be competitive. Thank You to SCCA, the cornerworkers/volunteers and everyone else that helped this year. I also want to say thanks to a very talented group of Cen-div racers like Kautz, Rubenzer and the others that pushed me all year, I can't wait to race with you guys again in 08.

As for JRII/Barett's protest during the week, to set the record straight, the car was deemed totally compliant without any changes being needed or requested. I made several changes to the floor of the car during the week for performance including one during qualifying and as the times show the car improved every session. I did get clarification from tech on the condition of the floor before and after the changes and it was compliant all week. I did not change the floor of the car after the protest and did have a little fun with some people with the blue towel! After all, if it was not for being able to tinker with the car during the week and playing some golf I would have been way too bored sitting there for over a week.

As for the way the rules are written, I thought they were very straight forward. If there is going to be further clarification, I don't envy the CRB and Formula comittee, it is going to be very difficult to change the rules now without forcing some well established as well as some newer cars to change their bodywork.

For my first year in anything other than a Spec Miata it was a blast and I am glad to see Formula Ford has a good group of racers that will be fun to run with the next few years.

Tony Coello

[Mark Blythe]

Bryan:

Thanks for the kind words, I enjoyed the week also. However we have to be realistic here, I did pass six cars legitimately, the other six were DNF's, so I'll take credit for six but the others were just race circumstance.

Mark