Zetec in the SCCA

[ennis bragg]

I don't know frog. I wouldn't say it's out of the realm of possibility. But, that's not really my point. My point is that an engine change for FC will mean a re-evaluation on the part of many current FC drivers. So in addition to the conversion costs and additional running costs that some current FC racers would be willing to incur, the class as a whole will lose some, if not many, current participants. I'm not saying I would definitely bail. But, I sure would look at my options.

[size="1"][ March 13, 2002, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: ennis bragg ][/size]

[Rick Silver]

Mark, I think you are right. But, what is secretly driving this is a desire on several peoples part to have another 20 hp. Got to admit it would sure be some fun to have 20 percent more power.

It is a good idea to have a plan agreed upon by the drivers and then pushed through the SCCA. I am not sure why the uprated pinto would need to be illegal in Nationals after a certain date. But there are several mid pack guys who could still compete with the uprated motor without spending the bucks. You are certainly correct, anybody wanting to win will have a new motor.

So, lets put it off for a couple of years until there are a bunch of used motors on the market. The cost will come way down, and if the short blocks are available from ford at a reasonable cost with the upgrades in FI and manifolds etc. offered at a reasonable cost the price will be much less than 17K.

It is in the best interest of the FC class to not let a second class form for Zetec. And there will be pressure from drivers as the fun factor of the Zetec becomes well known.

[Tom Johnson]

Mark, I would never call you short! Maybe 'vertically challenged', but never short! Besides, I'm only envious that you can actually FIT in one of these things and don't have to fold into a pretzel like me...

I absolutely agree that there isn't anything wrong with the current formula. Further, I recognize that making two power plants equivalent is impossible.

But I also think that we need to at least talk about what will happen when Grampaw Pinto is ready for the rest home. Again, I point to our brethren in FF and want to avoid the angst they are currently experiencing.

Is this the time for a new zoom-zoom? No. But change is inevitable, and whether it's going to the Zetec or something else, we should posture ourselves to have some kind of workable solution in the wings. I mean, when was the last time an Offy qualified for Indy?

P.S.
The Zetecs only make 165HP? Heck, my new motor with the cheater head makes at least that! (Whoops. Was I just thinking that, or did I write it? Dang.)

[Purple Frog]

Tom,
You read my mind... hum 165... I guess I would have to de-tune my "regional" motor if I enter an ACC event. We are measuring that at the rear wheel, aren't we?

OBTW, if I would have taken today off, I could have had my ol' 88 qualify 3rd in ACC at Sebring. I guess the ACC guys can't take off all week to race. Small showing.

"IF" , "could have", "should have", all great racing terms. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[size="1"][ March 13, 2002, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Purple Frog ][/size]

[Skunk Butt]

The new Zetec motor sounds great but the price is out of the ball park for most racers today.
We do not want to create two class of FC...but welcome the Zetec when the price starts down.
Is that 1 year,3years who knows.....but give the old Pinto a chance to run with the Zetec!!!!
Engine builders can find the extra hp for very little money.
Maybe you guys who buy the expensive Zetec motor are afraid to be beaten by the new and improved Pinto....driving skill is still a factor.
Also, you rich Zetec guys need someone to lap near the end of the race to make it interesting for your friends, family and sponsers.
So ,.... what is this about not letting racers run orginal Pinto motor after 2003 or 2004 or 2005 in Nationals.
Do you as a group want to distroy the value of your current car????

I'm in the process of buying your old car(90 to 98 VD)...I will just wait ...maybe go to another class. I will not do that ....Let me run the National races when my skills are good enough... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Bob Wright]

Thought I might add a couple of points. As mentioned earlier in a couple of posts...

1. Cape Motorsports dropped the cost of a Pro season from a rumored $250,000+ to a stated $165,000 with the advent of the Zetec motor.

2. The test Zetec car has something north of 6000 miles on it with no appreciable change in performance or lap times and no real problems.

3. Everyone I've talked to who has driven one of the little beasts has nothing but praise for it.

Ok...seems to me that in the long run it will be cheaper to run a Zetec than a Pinto motor. So we should all be thinking about how to make the transition, because the above hinted at economics will eventually be compelling (not to mention the fun factor with the extra Hp).

What do we do with all those Kents? Why not uprate them? Pure economics or lack of parts will phase them out eventually. In the mean time I don't see why a new spec cam, or whatever cannot be developed to match the Zetec for Hp (local dirt track mini-stocks routinely get 180-200hp out of pinto motors using cams and carbs). No reason to ban them from Nationals; if someone wants to continue to spent the maintenance dollars and run an uprated Kent motor, so be it.
How many rebuilds at $4000 each does it take to own a Zetec which runs 6 or more times longer before a teardown?

What we have here is a wonderful opportunity where it really won't require a new chassis, gearbox or suspension to convert the class to a modern powerplant, while still allowing the old one to be used for any number of years in the future. We as a group could really make this happen, and on our terms if we have one (or maybe close to one) voice.

[Gelles Racing]

The Formula Renault has been run in Europe very succesfully for the past couple of years. It makes 186 hp and can be purchased from Loynings whom is the authorized US dealer for $9,900 complete, considerably less than a Zetec. In mentioning about the increase of stress on the LD-200 and other gearboxes with upgraded power from the zetec, bear in mind, that the 6-speed sequential in the Formula Renault was designed for 300 hp. If anyone has any doubts about it's stength just ask Mike or John Grubb who just visited the Sadev factory in France last week. Their phone number at J&J Racing is (610)845-2848. All this for a car that is only $42,000 ready to race and not just a roller for 45k from Van Diemen. Check out www.fran-am.com

[John Green]

As an owner of a 94 VD, (my very last race car before they put me in a home), I would like to see a transition to the zetec by allowing an uprated pinto motor for a couple of years or until they die out on their own. I came back to FC from a number of years in S2 because the switch to the Olds engine virtually killed the class. I know I am not going to win nationals, even with a zetec, just let me get close enough with a pinto so I can have some fun and not be too slow!

[ehaiss]

Well, this may be one time a class lower on the totem pole could offer some insight! Many of you know I drive an F500 and am looking to make the move to an FC in the not too distant future.

First, I think the lively discussion regarding this topic proves that FC is alive and well. It's pretty clear that you guys love this class, and as an outsider, it's pretty cool to see.

Second, don't worry about the transition in motors. F440 / F500 has been through 3 (Chapparel, Kawasaki, AMW, Rotax) transitions so far, and each one had everyone up in arms, after the approval was granted (since few knew the change was coming). What's different today is that these awesome discussion forums allow everyone to voice their opinions, before rules are passed (in most cases).

Have you considered putting together a FC Motor Transition group? Maybe have representatives from different divisions that would host open discussions and put a plan together, then go to Denver . . . er Topeka, and tell them what you want to do as a group? You could post the minutes from the meetings on this forum, and allow input from the rest of the members.

Fran-Am does seem cool. But because FC is already very prevalent and has a good pro-series (that needs TV coverage), Fran-Am is facing an uphill battle. If FC could put together a good transition plan for the new motor, I think it would seal the fate of Fran-Am.

As for my prediction (not that it matters), I see the Zetec taking FC into the future, and any Pinto powered cars in CFC. Just my thoughts (sorry Frog).

Cheers . . .

[mark defer]

the actual real world costs of running a zetec aren't known yet. a year of the pro series will help to clear up that picture. until then, it's all conjecture. will we be replacing diffs every year? more axle failures? more tire wear? are the electronics prone to problems [what's the cost for replacement of the box]? are guys really going to forgo a once a year rebuild? hey, the zetec just could be the greatest thing for the future of the class, but i don't know, and neither does anyone else at this point. a year from now, after some "real world" experience, we'll have all the answers to make a more informed decision. mark

[dc]

All excellent ideas and opinions, though I don't believe there would be any need to outlaw any Pinto powered car ever. I still think those cars will live on in CFC forever. And no one will really run any car that isn't already with a Zetec in the rails after 2003 on the top levels anyway. That point would probably be moot.

Great discussion guys.

Either way, back to my original point, I seriously don't think the Zetecs will be affluent in the SCCA classes for a few years. Anyone who buys a Z-powered car to "run a few Pro races and then play at the National level" is asking to run with the Atlantics for a few years. Right now, the only Zetec cars we should be seeing will be the full-schedule Pro teams. Anything else would be foolish, in my eyes.

-doug

[Tom Hope]

I have a 93/95VD will the Zetec fit in my car??

tom

[Tom Johnson]

I believe the answer is a qualified yes. You will need to rearrange some structure in the engine bay, but a skilled fabricator should be able to figure out some way to do it. I have been told the bolt-up to the bell is the same, so that relieves a lot of the grief and agony.

I think Mark is spot on with his recommendation. At the end of the season we should be able to get good data from some of the pro teams on maintenance, wear&tear on the rest of the package, etc. Based on fact we can assess whether the matter deserves serious thought or is just a dead-end street.

[Purple Frog]

As self-appointed chairman of the nomination committee I nominate Bob Wright and Mark Defer to be members of the committee that will present to Topeka. And because we want the planning meetings to be held at The Pointe in Scottsdale next winter, Jim Whitney can be Chairman. [img]smile.gif[/img]

OBTW we are not going to fret about all those 91 -99 VDs dropping down into CFC. I'm in the process of changing the rules in CFC to be a claiming class. You will be able to buy any CFC car on the grid for $15,500 USD. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[size="1"][ March 14, 2002, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Purple Frog ][/size]

[mark defer]

hey frog, bite me. md

[size="1"][ March 14, 2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: mark defer ][/size]

[Purple Frog]

The chair recognizes that Mark has respectfully declined his nomination to the non-existent committee.

[DKW]

Not knowing alot about the pinto engine just how
much H.P. will 3 pound off a flywheel give?
With that and a spec cam are you going to get to
160 to 165 H.P.like the Z motors?

Dave

[Purple Frog]

Dave,
There are numerous ways to pick up 20 more HP.

As one single change, a specialized ground cam will pick up the most. But a domino effect will take place. With a new cam, a good engine builder would want to possibly redesign the head ports and internal profiles of the intake runners, and do a bunch of flow bench work. Better flow could then trigger a need to reconfigure the carb, at least jetting. Also with a new cam, it could have steeper profiles, so roller cam followers may be needed to prevent scrubbing off too much of this new gained power. And, possibly a new valve spring rate may be in order... don't want to strain those weak cam towers too much more.

Then OBTW, what if this new cam causes peak HP to come in at 7200 instead of the current 6800. Gear changes could be in order.

Other inexpensive (?) HP changes: Use Ford 2300 connecting rods with shorter, lighter pistons. That frees up the rod angle a bit and lowers weight. Performance 2300 rods are much less expensive than the current Olivers, etc. While you are at it... allow overbores to .030, making a lot of current resleaving unnecessary. Aftermarket pistons such as Wiseco with short skirts and high pin locations (some even teflon skirts) are just as inexpensive as the current legal pistons.

Then we could raise the compression. Why not... most of us are wasting our money on $4.00/gal fuel already. A couple of ways to do that. One, let the pistons exceed the block deck by .010 or so. Or, two, allow smaller combustion chambers (shave the head). or, three, when you change pistons, possibly use a raised head model.

Of course we could spend a little more money... and machine in larger valves. Fairly simple, inexpensive, over the counter parts. You could even upgrade to stainless or with a big budget, titanium. Oops... change the valves and you need to go back and design another cam... and we start the whole cycle over.

Hum... did I just complete an argument for the change to Zetec being easier. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh yeah, 3 lbs. off the flywheel won't show up much on the dyno in terms of HP. It will give the engine the ability to spool up and decelerate faster. So it will change it's characteristics on the track, feeling more responsive. And, it makes it more fun to launch off the grid (not).

[size="1"][ March 14, 2002, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Purple Frog ][/size]

[robbie ferstl]

no

[Purple Frog]

Of course, Robbie is correct. At least for the guys like us that build our own engines. These changes don't add much cost to a standard rebuild, if you are providing all the labor. Big if.

The problem lies in establishing a rule, and defining precisely what mods would be allowed. That's where it gets costly. I'm guessing that it would require quality engine builder(s) to build 10 motors to the current rules, then add mods, dynoing as they go. Document everything, then have a 3rd party do it to confirm the results. Who's going to pay for all that research? Not Sandy, he has all the Zetec business he can handle. It would have to be us, or the SCCA (don't bet on those).

Without controls, it appears possible to hit 200 HP with the current carb body, and an engine that should last at least a weekend.

Seriously, 165 looks fairly easy, and with an engine that may have a longer maintenance cycle than the current pinto. The two fastest wearing items on the pinto are the rings and valve springs. Newer piston/ring technology may solve the ring problem. And valve springs are already unregulated (as long as it is only one per valve).

Later I'll get into how to get really wild. Do away with the jackshaft by adding crankfire ignition... electric water pumps... stroker cranks....variable cam timing... electric/air valves... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Ray Grienke]

One other thing to consider - the changes to the electrical system. The ECU doesn't come free: >$1000, and the ECU harness will cost somewhere between $500 - $1000. Current cars have an electric fuel pump in the tank - more work there to plumb and wire it.

If you are using a Stack dash, the dash has to go back to England to be modified to use the ECU data stream instead of individual sensors. (The sensor spots are taken up by those used with the ECU). There are other engine hookups as well - there's a cam sensor, a crank sensor, MAP, etc. Another thing is the Stack loom has to be changed as well. I'm not sure about changes to Pi; I'll get into that later.

Right now, the pro guys are getting an ECU made by Pectel (who is owned by Pi who is owned by Ford). There is no reason that the club version couldn't use a MoTeC or other brand.
All in all, there's quite a bit of work to convert the car above mating the engine to the bell housing.

[Robert Lennon]

First off, is this the long thread ever on this site??

I agree the induction of the Zetec is going to create a serious spread from the pintos. An option might be to create an new FC class for the Zetecs (I know we have already discussed before, bear with me). As guys are able to convert there rides to the Zetec, they move into the new class, and with normal attrition, the current class dissolves into the new. Overtime, pinto cars that choose to stay in the old class (current FC) are blended/ reclassed into the CFC class. The older cars in the current CFC class will continue to die out with normal attrition as well. In other words, a temporary additional class. The move would be on a calculated long term schedule to smooth the transition of cost to the new motors. Meh, just a though.

[DKW]

I don"t know why I even jumped in on this my 89
Reynard won"t keep up with the newer VD"s anyway.
I need to campain to get a CFC class in the Rocky Mt. Div. run there a couple of years, maybe by then I can aford a newer car.The way this thread is going you guys might have it figured out by then. HA HA !! and I'll know what to buy.

Dave

[Tom Johnson]

...and another thing...

I think Ray is just baiting me to get started on my anti-D/A jag!

Hadn't thought of all that sparky business. Will have to be dealt with.

I'll call Dwayne Esslinger tomorrow to quiz him on the cost of getting the Pinto to 165. He's a very straight shooter and can tell me something about the reliability as well. Just to satisfy curiosity, of course.

And no, I don't think it's the longest thread (yet). I think the tire debate went on a bit longer.

[Jim Whitney]

I've heard a lot of good points made, and I agree with Mark Defer that it would be more difficult to make things equal than is seems on the surface. Time will tell about the performance and reliability of the entire drive train with the Zetec engine, and if we try to match the Pinto with the Zetec we'll need to consider a number of issues. I'm not sure that making the Pinto competitive with the Zetec is the best answer, but I think it is worth investigating. I'll give Jay Ivey a call to discuss how we can match the overall performance of the Zetec in the most economical way. (consider: hp, weight, acceleration, drivability, reliability, conversion cost, etc.) We may decide not to pursue this with the SCCA, and I don't anticipate that we need to do it immediately, but it would be good to have a plan or two to include the Zetec in FC.

[robbie ferstl]

the tire discussion went over 100 posts.

[Steve Demeter]

Overall, you will never get a carburated engine with points and coil ignition to perform as well as an injected engine with ECU control. the driveability simply will not be there.
What can be done farily easily is to allow limited modifications to the pinto engine, as has been discussed at length in this thread. Real racing rods (last forever, cost same or less than the stock rods we have to run now), Cam (there are dozens if not hundreds of grinds out there that would likely work), real racing pistons and lighten the flywheel.
None of these changes would make the pinto as good a road racing motor as the Xtec, but would soften the transition and not instantly obsolete the pinto motors and cars the instant the Ztec is allowed into FC.
When the Ztec is allowed into FC, this is the way the pinto engined cars should be handled. Eventaully, as happened with the Air Cooled Super Vees, they would go away through attrition and no one will be hurt too badly financially.

[Matt M.]

Should I.... Shouldn't I......Should I........
I'll sit this one out for now.... lets talk about transponders!!

[Ramrod]

almost sounds like the recent Cart vs. IRL engine discussions. What do ya say we call Tony George and ask him what he thinks!

[Jack Rosen]

Might as well get my .02 in here, since I had the opportunity to drool over a Zetec that was being assembled and prepared by Glen Philips last week at his shop GTP Motorsports. It sure is a neat looking package. All that for around 60K.
My suggestion if the Zetec becomes a class is to call it FCZ and let a Pinto FC compete in that class with an unlimited engine restriction. (obviously no blowers). If a car shows up with too much h.p. in the Pinto, the car will never finish a race since something in the driveline will fail anyways. That should keep mods to around the Zetec range.
Just a thought!!
Jack

[Gelles Racing]

I have just received the complete rules for the Fran-Am series Formula Renault 2.0 liter cars. If anyone is interested I can email them to you in Word Document form. Gelles@erols.com or telephone Arden Weatherford at Fran-Am, his number is listed on the website www.fran-am.com