Best FF chassis?

[bdaj88]

Hello I am looking into picking up a FF car and I have checked the classifieds and noticed a few different car maufacturers. Crossel, Van Diemen, Swift, and Reynard mainly. My question is this, What would you reccomend for me being that I will be a new driver with some experience as a vintage and formula atlantic mechanic, but no driving experience in these types of cars.

I am mainly looking for something that will be adjustable that I can learn on and take with me as an engineering student.

[EYERACE]

you'll probably never regret buying any of them. If I was starting over again and had the budget, i'd buy the swift. i bought a crossle 32f and still think the car is great twelve years later. be careful with any car - look for chassis cracks or repairs of cracks - it does not mean 'don't buy the car' - it's just that the tubing repair needs to be done properly

[se7en]

If you are looking at Club Ford, you can't really go too wrong with a Crossle' 25/32/35. Robust chassis, accessable components, very competitive in the right hands, very active here in the Pac NW (ICSCC).
Ken

[Joe911]

Andrew - where is winchester? Whether you choose CF or FF might depend on where you will race. As a formula mechanic - you should know how to check out a car. Do you have a license already?

I would support the recommendation that a Crossle is a good choice for CF - I am told they are EZ to set-up with no bad habits - plus very competitive. Parts are in stock at several formula specialty parts vendors. Van Diemans (RF80/81) are also good but somewhat expensive. Personally I would suggest a CF as you will save on tires.

For FF on a budget a Swift DB-1 is still fast - newer cars are still rather expensive. Reynard is less competitive than a DB-1 but a little less expensive.

Best of luck, Joe

[bdaj88]

I am actually about 30 minutes from summitpoint, but traveling around most of the east coast will not be a problem for me. Thanks for all the help everyone.

[John Nesbitt]

Come to the Labor Day race at Summit Point. There will be a variety of Club Fords and Formula Fords to see, and their drivers will be happy to tell you all about them.

If you decide to come, contact me via email, and I'll arrange a ticket for you.

[Bill Steele]

I would second the suggestions already given. A Crossle 32/35 is the most bang for the buck you can get in formula car racing. Short of a very exotic and expensive car like an ADF, it is one of the consistently fastest and durable cars in that vintage. You could run it in Club Ford (CF), which generally is a spec tire class thus cutting one of your biggest expenses down a little.

If you really want to go FF, and are on a budget, a Swift DB1 is definitely the best bet. You can pick up a well maintained example in the $12K-15K range (sometimes less) and you can be competitive with anything other than a top prepared/driven Swift DB6, Citation, Piper or newer Van Diemen.

Neil Porter had a Crossle 32/35 roller for sale over on the FF Classified board of this forum with a lot of the good stuff (like Penske shocks, AL radiator, etc.) for I think $8500. You could buy a regional level engine, go through it yourself and be on the track pretty inexpensively.

That is not to say you can't make other cars competitve in their respective classes, but there is a reason these cars are the year in and year out front runners.

[jgaither]

All these posts are good advice. Crossle's maintain good resale value for several reasons outlined above and because parts are really easy to get - not so with some others that are out of production. I like Zink's even though I'm now in a Van Dieman RF81 - it's growing one me pretty quick. There's also a good cottage industry network of support for these older FF's of all types and you only have to read through this terrific site to find out who they are.

Mainly, though, your choice should be based on condition and your goals. Nesbitt has a really good RF80 for sale not too far from you and Frank Hammette has a proven fast Crossle for sale outside Atlanta. Both are reasonable driving distances from you. Unless you want a more modern car (get a DB1 for that - if you fit in one), then take a hard look at these two. Good ones don't come along every week & you'll do well with either of these. You can buy a project car for a lot less, but you'll end up spending more when you're done. Ask me how I know. No, don't.

Good luck.

JG

[EYERACE]

Joe made me think to mention Viking, also Gemini and Zink

[bdaj88]

Thanks everybody for all the help. I may take you up on that offer at summit point.

[J.D. King]

Get a well sorted car.

Don't worry about the engineering until you learn to drive well enough to notice the changes. I've seen too many guys dial themselves right out of a great handling car for the sake of "modernizing" or "engineering".

[jim morgan]

If you are intent on lower budget Cf racing either a 35 or 45 crossle is your car. the 35 is the same as a 32 except for the upper front. i have owned both and they are great cars to drive,easy to fix and can compete with anything in the class. Fun to drive,neutral cars with no quirks to drive around.

If you intend to stay in ff and grow competitive you need a swift DB-6 or a piper. DB-1 is no mans land.

[BWC54]

the 35 is the same as a 32 except for the upper front.

Jim, what do you mean by upper front?

[jim morgan]

If i recall correctly 32 you had to adjust camber differently 35 had an adjustable nut/sleeve in upper that was quicker. been 16 years/32 adjustment was in rod ends pain in the *ss

[Steve Maxwell]

The nice thing about a Piper DF-5 is that they are very easy to work on. The chassis is wide open and the bodywork is a cool clamshell design with fast easy access to evrything front and rear. It is also a great car to drive. It is a chassis that wil be competitive for many years to come on any FF level. With no inherent handling issues it is a great car to learn in. It is the most responsive FF I've ever driven. You can even drive it with the throttle if you so choose.

Just thought that might help.

SEM

[Daniel Thompson]

The nice thing about a Piper DF-5 is that they are very easy to work on. The chassis is wide open and the bodywork is a cool clamshell design with fast easy access to evrything front and rear. It is also a great car to drive. It is a chassis that wil be competitive for many years to come on any FF level. With no inherent handling issues it is a great car to learn in. It is the most responsive FF I've ever driven. You can even drive it with the throttle if you so choose.

Just thought that might help.

SEM

How does one get in touch with the makers of Piper Formula Fords?

Thanks,

Daniel

[jim morgan]

doug learned @ fast forward components is now the mfg. of Piper
tel:831-899-3636
fastforwardracingcomponents.com

[Steve Maxwell]

What he said! Thanks Jim.

[stevenl]

If i recall correctly 32 you had to adjust camber differently 35 had an adjustable nut/sleeve in upper that was quicker. been 16 years/32 adjustment was in rod ends pain in the *ss

I have a 32f and it has the nut/sleave adjustment. Maybe someone changed it over? I used to own a 35f and the only difference I saw was the shoulder belt mounts.

[Bill Steele]

Neil Porter - 209-722-7373

www.porterracing.com carries all the Crossle parts, he is the US distributor for the parts.

If you have any questions regarding these cars, Neil is the guy to call.

Bill

[jim morgan]

once again from old memory,once you installed the 35 upper front on a 32 you had the same car from a suspension point of view ,on the 32 you had to adjust at the rod ends not the sleeve nut/either config the best old cf to own from a driver/repair standpoint. owned a 32 wrapped it around a cement pole,moved my spares to a 35 drove it forever and sold it for a profit/bought a 45 extremely competitive/sold it for a profit
(profit being original cost+upgrades vs. sale,race costs not included) come to think of it I have a DB-6 in FC trim I'll let go for only 3x's what i paid for it. (we only have 150+ races on it since we bought it used)

[Bob Devol]

I agree with the advice on the Crossle cars.

I had the 45F Crossle. Great car, easy to work on and drive. Very forgiving.

I also raced a Zink Z-10C. Fast, but harder to work on and not quite as sensitive to adjustments, except ride height.

I'd rate the Van Diemen RF-81 I had as the equal to the Crossle. Very nice car, parts are plentiful. Can't wrong with a good RF-78 - RF-81.

Finally, before returning to Spec Racer this year, I raced a Swift DB-1. Brilliant design. Quick, but a bit more demanding on the driver. One of the most, if not the most, aerodynamic FF out there. Many are priced right, $12K-$15K. Make sure the car has the upgraded Fast Forward rear halfshafts, hubs and bearings. The stock stuff is dicey. Cockpit is extremely tight.

Get over to Summit, talk with the FF and CF guys and see the cars first hand.

All these cars can be found for under $18,000.

[racer27]

Best CF - Can't go wrong with those mentioned above -- a Crossle, Zink, VD

In FF - Swift (If you fit), Newer VD, Piper, Ect....

If you want to check out some cars, ccome the to www.frcca,com race this Sat/Sun at Pocono. All the above CF Chassis wil be represented.

[Frank C]

Steve Nickless ranked the top 5 Spec Fords in his SportsCar article, "Used Race Car Buyers Guide," April, 1989, pp. 16-20, 77. I used this in selling my VD RF81, which I had enjoyed for 14 years. I now have a Swift DB1, and it is a nice package, but maintenance is a little harder since things are harder to get at - have to take off the exhaust to do valve adjustments, etc.
- Frank C

SPEC FORD

1 (tie) - Crossle 30F, 32F, 35F, 45F
2 (tie) - Van Diemen RF79, RF80, RF81- Excellent, relatively long (94 in.) wheelbase cars, preferable to the Crossle in some circles - designer Dave Baldwin really had his sums together in penning cars so successful on so many different tires. Very reliable, and parts are still plentiful
3 - Zink Z10
4 - Lola T-540
5 - ADF Mk II
Sleepers - Eagle and Royale RP26

*Steve was using the West Coast Spec Ford designation - now Club Ford most everywhere else.

[Tim FF19]

Swift DB-1 should be your first choice unless you are going to race CF. There are still alot of them out there that are just a tiny bit slower that the best National stuff around. Very easy to work on and adjust (way way easier than my T-342 Lola) and a much more robust car all the way arouind. Tons of good set up data available. All parts easily available. You can get an excellent DB-1 for about the price of an excellent CF. I doubt you could find a DB-1 owner that ever regreted owning one.

Tim

[Frank C]

I agree with Tim, and the points he makes are the reasons I got a DB1. I think it offers the most competitiveness with newer cars for the buck. One other factor about the DB1 to consider, though, is driver safety in the footbox area. The driver's feet are far forward and the cars did not come with a real crush box. Good CFs can be available for less, and if there are a lot of CFs where you are going to race, they are a great way to start.
- Frank C

[ccambern]

I think the Van Diemen RF97/98 is one of the best cars out there for the money. They can be made to handle very nicely and good torsional stiffness means they respond well to set-up changes. They are also pretty robust and easy to maintain. Mine was just as fast as anything at the national level- Piper, DB6, new VD, Citation, etc.

You can usually find a very nice example for under 20k.

-Clark

[racer27]

BDAJ88:

CF/FF depends a great deal on where/who you will be racing with. Field counts for yor club of choice may steer you in one direction or another.

[Paddy O'Brien]

Favorite FF cars that I have raced: Swift DB1, Reynard 83/84, VanDieman RF80, 76/78 Tiga,Crossle 32/35, and Titan 6c. Least favorites: Lola T202, Elden ph10, VanDieman RF84, Crossle55, and any pro driving school FF, but ALL of them are fun!

[Bob Devol]

I believe Porter Racing makes an aluminum front crush box for DB1, and I think it runs about $200 or so. Maybe someone else can provide details.

Also, you'll need really narrow driving shoes for a Swift DB1. I'm six feet, 190 pounds, 33 inseam and I barely fit my DB1 with the factory rollbar.

By the way, if you decide on a Club Ford, Van Diemen RF-81s can be found for very nice prices.

[cjahn]

Howdy!

No matter what car you purchase, I do suggest selecting one which parts are easily available. I had a formula ford where every part that needed to be replaced was a custom piece which cost quite a bit more money and time due to custom fabrication. With the Crossle you have the ability to get parts off the shelf from a number of sources: Porter (great source) and Cont. Crossle (if they are still around)

I assume the same is possible with Van-D, Piper, etc...

OR you could be OK if it comes with a large spares package with usable parts.

Just my 2 cents....from experience.
Corky!

[Bill Steele]

Howdy!

No matter what car you purchase, I do suggest selecting one which parts are easily available. I had a formula ford where every part that needed to be replaced was a custom piece which cost quite a bit more money and time due to custom fabrication. With the Crossle you have the ability to get parts off the shelf from a number of sources: Porter (great source) and Cont. Crossle (if they are still around)

I assume the same is possible with Van-D, Piper, etc...

OR you could be OK if it comes with a large spares package with usable parts.

Just my 2 cents....from experience.
Corky!

I could not agree more. Along the same lines (slightly) is the wisdom of buying a front runner's car when they are moving on to bigger and better things. The downside is you will usually pay more for an equal car and you might face the reality of having to "freshen" a well used car, but the cost of these elements will be repaid many fold in giving you a car where the basic setup is near perfect and you can focus on learning to drive fast and not learning how to setup the car from scratch.

On the other hand, if you don't mind running at the back for a few years, you enjoy working on tough puzzles and you have an mechanical engineering bent, then buying a hardly used, well maintained back markers car might be a good way to go. 10 years down the road you will probably know more taking this route.

The most important thing is for sure, get one of these cars. It is definitely the most fun you can have by yourself in a car.

Bill

[Mike Allison]

I'm coming in late to this thread but I second all the above comments regarding Club Ford. If you're starting out, Club Ford is competitive and fun.

I own a Crossle 30F and a Zink Z10C, probably two of the most successful FF's of the early 70's. Skip Barber used the 30 series cars for his schools and race series for a number of reasons, but easy maintenance ranked pretty high up. The customers used up a lot of spare parts in the Race Series...still do.

My only problem is which one to keep. I haven't had the opportunity to drive the Zink yet. (Only 3 laps at a Road Atlanta test day before the oil pressure went further South). Looking at the two, the Zink has had or originated with a bolt-in top crossbar on the rear bulkhead. This will make it substantially easier to remove the engine vs the Crossle which has a welded (brazed) top bar and a much smaller opening.

I've also driven thousand of miles in a Crossle and can tell you they are fun and relatively easy to drive. No bad habits and easy to adjust.

My 2 cents.

Mike Allison
Former GM, Skip Barber Racing

[crossle27]

I have been in CF for 20 years now in the NW, and we run a gaggle of Crossles up here. 2 VD 81's, a couple of old Lola's and that's about it. There are a few Royale's about, and a Tiga in a barn somwhere, but Crossle is where it's at around here.

The Crossle supposedly turns in better, but the VD comes off the corner harder, or so I've been told. My son has an 81' VD, but I have yet to drive it. I did own a Zink C10 for about 5 years, but it had been modified to run CF, so the front shocks were moved from vertical to the standard 45 degree angle you'll find in most CF's. DID NOT WORK I'm here to say! I'd love to drive one properly set up, especially on a fast track where they apparently excelled, but I sold mine without ever putting it back where it was originally.

The old Crossle's are strong, easy to work on, and a blast to drive. So you can't go wrong if you start there. The resale is great, so moving up and recouping a decent amount of money is usually pretty easy.

Wes