While I was busy writing the FF race report, I was told that on the podium the announcer asked Schweitz to comment on how great the HPT track was. Rather than say anything bad, he just stood there not saying anything. OUCH! After more prodding by the announcer I believe he merely stated it need more fast corners.
Cheers,
Allan Craighead
eFormulaCarNews.com Managing Editor
(226) 808-9472 Cell
acraighead@howdenmediagroup.com
Al is dead on. Rob Howden and I were standing there and almost wet ourselves. You could see how excited Mr. Holy Topeka was with the brilliant question he had just asked. When Tommy just stood there and looked at James and John on the podium for a good 30 seconds...one word. CLASSIC
BTW, I am looking for anyone who wants to start the "Holy Topeka" Racing team. I am accepting applications.
Give em' Hell Kid!
Holy Topeka
The Gainesville Baller
In Loving Memory of David Dietrich, a father, a friend, a racer.
(1954-2006)
Runoffs
Who was the operating Steward?That should be the person that could have kept this from being an issue.Stewards are supposed to use good judgemnet.This is a disgrace.We need more drivers involved in the process.
Mike, it would seem any of the operating steward, chief steward or chief of grid could have prevented this. Not a single call to grid following lunch. 5 of the top 12 cars not in position at the 5 minute board. This is amateur racing. After the large financial and time commitment from the drivers and teams, it is totally unacceptable what happened.
I believe this has become endemic to the SCCA. The problem starts at the top and until responsibility is taken or much less someone admits errors were made, the organization cannot fix itself. The SCCA leadership needs to make a strategic change and re-make itself into a driver friendly organization.
After the events of this Runoffs, as a driver who participates in the SCCA process, I will find it very difficult to return to SCCA National racing. There are competing driver-friendly series such as the new Hankook series which welcome drivers and teams and do whatever they can help make racing an enjoyable experience. Please look for my detailed letter to the board of directors.
-Rick Silver
HMM... I think that the Stewards hands were tied when the schedule said the green would fly @ 1 pm CST and they had to have the cars on the track to meet this start time? But as I have said earlier they could have had a "long 5"?
But what about the drivers (the pole sitter for one) that timed it perfectly, warmed their engines and were in place anticipating the field to roll out at apx 12:50? Now all their planing goes out the window, they overheat and have to shut down to accommodate the guys that were running behind?
My observations as a bystander, fan (paying) and wanna be driver?, are that the stakes are high in Nat racing so I think they try and run the show more like a pro event with no favortisim showen (and they can't) on the grid, impound and on the track? If they did hold the field then others would be upset, so I do feel bad for the guys who were cought out but I do understand the reason it had to be as it was.
The "Holy Topeka" thing became a JOKE by day 2 with lots of dead air time on the HPT radio station too?
SuperTech Engineering inc.
Mark Hatheway
Runoffs
Who was the operating Steward?That should be the person that could have kept this from being an issue.Stewards are supposed to use good judgemnet.This is a disgrace.I keep saying "we need more drivers involved in the process".
Mark, see Rickb99's post above. It answers most questions about how it should have been on the grid last Friday.
In our "Pro Series" we keep all competitors advised as to roll-off, green flag, and when everybody needs to be at the grid, as well as all other schedule changes or additions. Somebody on the staff tries to personally give the information to each driver and/or crew chief. We bend over backwards to give everybody a fighting chance to get the to grid and onto the track. That is how I think it should be, and has been in every other Pro Series I've ever raced.
Obviously, this is not practical at an event like the runoffs, so loud speakers are a necessity- and they need to be used intelligently and informatively. Frog's comment about the Grid Chief being technically correct and morally wrong about sums it up.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Mark you can't be serious, there are a hundred different reasons why we don't roll off the grid on time at events. There is absolutely no disadvantage to anyone to hold the grid 5 more minutes it happens all the time but that's beside the point there should have been grid announcements, PERIOD! The pro Trans Am race the Sunday before had at least 4 calls to grid. They had no problem using the PA to announce worker parties, dances, vendors, blocked cars, etc so why couldn't they announce calls to the grid. They had calls for every test day!
What is really upsetting is the last thing the announcer said over the PA before breaking for lunch was "we'll resume at 1 PM" which implied we'd roll off at 1 PM. They were taking a late lunch so it made sense to push back the start a bit. It was very misleading to say the least and obviously caught many seasoned drivers out.
The bottom line is you can't treat people this way. There has to be some perspective. Drivers spend tens of thousands of dollars, vacation, time away from home and risk a lot to do this just to be caught out on the fine print.
As for the supps, there was no schedule in them nor was there mention of a separate schedule. You could download a schedule from the website and there was a yellow scheduled handed out but it was not part of the supps and therefore not offical. It's always been my understanding that only the GCR and Supplementals are used to govern events and anything else is informational.
If we're going to be such sticklers for the rules then next year maybe I'll stand outside my trailer with a radar gun and time every official who goes by on their pit vehicle faster than 10 mph then insist they be fined for speeding and have their scooter or golf cart confiscated for breaking the rules. I may even hang out by the worker party and wait to see anyone drinking get into a car to drive home then call 911, after all that's the law and we need to stick to it. You can't blame me for following the rules can you?
Subjective
It also seem to me that saying that the race will start at Xoclock leaves a lot to sombodys subjective judgement. I really never timed it (I will next year) but I can't believe that it takes us 10 minutes from the time the first car rolls off the pregrid until the green flag flies, unless they aren't happy with the field and don't throw the green. Technically, the Stewards could have decided they wanted the field off of the pregrid at 12:30 and lined up in back of the pace car. I know this would never happen, but if it did, it seems to me it would be within the rules as written.
Also, for the runoffs, isn't the race a certain amount of laps?? Is it a timed race?
If it is a certain amount of laps and there is no discression given for the start time of the race, then does the starter have to give the green flag, even if the field is not properly aligned. It seems to me that if the rules say that the race must start at 1:00 no exceptions, then the starter shouldn't have any discression as to if he or she will or will not drop the green. Unless there is a crash or some safety problem, the green should fly.
Next time they should say in the sups that the cars will leave the pregrid 10 or 15 or whatever minutes before the start of the race. Then there would be an objective time that everyone could count on. If the race rolled of the pregrid late, no one would suffer.
Last edited by Douglas Brenner; 10.18.06 at 7:26 PM.
"long 5"
Let's clarify something - having a "long" 5 minute warning is not the same as a "long" one minute warning. Few sane people start their engine before the one, so the argument that guys are going to fry their engines idling is kind of lame. I race FV's and considering the temps in Kansas last weekend even a Vee would have been fine idling for a few minutes (remember, we're air cooled).
Having a long 5 would/should have been perfectly acceptable. We do it at plenty of races throughout the year, having it at the Runoffs would not have suprised anyone. At every race I've been to in the recent past we rely on a "working" schedule anyway - start times are not posted, you rely on the PA system to let you know when to go to grid. A race scheduled after a lunch break, regardless of the schedule, should have warranted extra calls to the grid.
Runoffs Do it like the pros
I would like to offer a few observations.
1. Mike was tooooooooo right when he said that "...the event has become too large." In particular it is too large to be run by amatures.
2. The FC fiasco was a break down in communications. A break down in communications falls on the head of the event organization prior to the event and the chief steward once the event starts.
3. How do to pros do it? At the drivers meeting (which is always held), the drivers get a "minute by minute" race schedual. In this case it would give when the grid opens, last call, grid closes, engine start, roll out. All times can be given relative to the official start time. With the minute by minute and the event schedual in each drivers hand, on race day, you have communicated.
4. If the race organizers want to run things like the gestapo then fine any driver who misses the meeting. But at a minimum the organizers have comunicated with the drivers.
5. Use radios to communicate information to the drivers and crew. Any body at the runoffs can afford a scanner. In pro races it is called "race net". I gives the official time, all information neceaasry to run a race is broadcast over the net. Even track information such as accidents, yellow flags, etc. The officials call the green flags, yellows and checker flags over the net. If you have a radio to your driver you can relay information. In pro events you are not allowed to run without radio communication to your driver. At least a voluntary system could be used at an event such as the run offs. Don't rely on the PA only.
6. What is different about this runoffs and the preceeding ones? Not much. Because this was a new venue, every thing that was bad in the past became worse.
7. Driver(user)friendly: SCCA has become about as user friendly as any government agency. The officials are in the image of the best beltway politicans. However the dirtly little, unspoken truth about the SCCA is that it derives all of its power, importance, and meaning from the drivers. It is the millions of dollars you guys spend each year racing that makes this whole thing possible. All the races are held to get some of your money. The workers all belong to regions that hold races to raise money to spend on things that non racing members of SCCA want to spend money for. The runoffs are simply the ultimate sucking of the drivers wallets.
8. As drivers, we have been so adicted to racing that we have become like a gutter drunk who will suffer any humiliation for the next drink. When people ask me about race drivers, I describe them as type A personalities with attention deficite disorder (attention span to the next race), and adrenaline junkies. This is the only explanation why any one goes to the runoffs.
Douglas,
The Supps said it was either 18 laps or 40 minutes, whichever comes first (Section 7.1). The Supps said absolutely nothing about a schedule. I can assure you if the schedule had said 1:15 and they rolled at 1 PM the officials would have said the schedule is not in the supps and therefore not governing. I've seen schedules in the supps before but there wasn't one for the runoffs this year. Regardless it's idiotic to have a green flag time as a schedule and if this is the way it was done in previous Runoffs I can assure you we didn't follow it. For the past 3 years we rolled off the grid at the times posted on the schedule.
The GCR (3.6.1) states that the schedule must be in the supps. 3.6.2 allows for changes to the schedule in the supps however a revised supplemental was not posted with an updated or added schedule.
Chas
Yes, it makes sense to me to have the rolloff time the posted one. Then any delays before or after that time don't effect anthing or anyone. Everyone would be in their car and ready no matter what......
Analizing this from afair... It looks and sounds to me like the breakdown started because of lunch (it's a shame people need to eat at races). It also sounds like a 'short' lunch was taken to get back on schedule (not at all uncommon).
At most events, Race Control is on the race net radio throughout the lunch break (perhaps not in this case). However, the PA announcer has NO authority to make grid calls without being told to do so by Race Control. So, I'm guessing one of those functions was missing during the break and that resulted in the break down of communications to the drivers. This should not have happened.
re: comment above
I worked for three sanctioning bodies this year and there's an amazing amount of cross over between Stewards and workers in this region (yes, 78% of us have gray hair). ALL of them (with maybe one exception) are super friendly good people who know how to run a race. I've had reason to talk with several of our stewards about specific driver incidents. My tendancy is to lean in favor of the driver (because I've been there) and most of our stewards do too. And that's the way it should be. No "Taliban" like organization here.
I would assume the worker staffing for the run offs would be led by the local Topeka workers who are familiar with the nuances of the track (stewards I don't know about). But it would be hard for the Steward to make a call for delayed roll out if he's unaware of the problem on the grid (by hearing about it on the radio).
END
In our region, all race times posted are "roll off" the pre grid. No Alice, it's not green flag time. Like I said above, you don't have a race if the drivers aren't in cars and ready. When the hysteria started on the pre grid, the Chief of Grid should have called for a 'long 5' which would indeed have been prefectly 'normal'. It's somewhat hard to place blame on the Steward of the Meet. As he may have been off at Tech, Sound Control, Paddock area, etc. Perhaps the Steward of (that) Race? Sure. He/she should have been with Race Control to make decisions regarding that event. But still, the first level of responsibility for roll out is the C. of Grid.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Back at the swamp...
Mrs Frog and i stayed over to tour Kansas and Missery. Not sure they are big tourist detinations.
Looking back, one of the things I remember about HPT was that there were NO trees around the track proper, nor in the paddock. A developer would just about go to jail for trying to pull that off in Florida. Here they would be forced to replant trees in public areas. Although most of the Topeka area had quit a lot of trees, compared to what I had expected, there were only one or two behind the dragstrip tower, otherwise all trees were on the fringes of the property. I guess now I know what Willow Springs would look like with grass.
The paddock is so big it needs something like street signs. Even Disney names their different parking lots, e.g. Goofy, Minnie, Pluto, etc. I think DaveW, Chas, Mark, and Rick were trapped in Mickey. (pun intended). Anyway, they need colored flags, street signs, something to help folks find each other. Fortunately I had my GPS unit, so I could 'mark' different folks paddock spots and let it navigate me back later.
It was not spectator friendly. The paddock literally fills the infield. IMHO the best viewing areas are along fences in the paddock. T1, T4, T8, and the grandstands at T11. But if you are a spectator, you either have to shell out a very hefty price for a golfcart or walk. No way you are going to get a personal vehicle inside. And it's a LOT of walking. If you had kids, strollers, etc, it would be a major chore.
Yes, I did on a few occassions spectate from the viewing mound outside T2 (a ten minute drive from the paddock, or a 3/4 mile hike). One can see a lot of the track, but much like watching from a blimp, you really are far away from the action. Not very stirring. Another thing about the viewing mound outside T2. NO restrooms or portalets nearby! Closest port-o-let was near a maintenacnce building about 1/4 mile away from the mound.
So... in summation it was not a spectator friendly place. Barber Motorsports Park is still far and away the best example of how to treat spectators. And Road Atlanta has restrooms at all the major viewing areas.
For convienences Topeka is a far better venue than Mansfield/Lexington. Easy access on great roads. Lots of restuarants, motels, shopping. Parts houses and Pat's Pig within a mile. Somewhat closer to major airport. Closer to California.
rickb99,
You've hit the nail(s) squarely on the head.
Problem # 1: Absolutely no calls to grid after a shortened lunch break.
Problem # 2: Absolute disregard by the grid personnel of the panic ensuing on the grid when over half the field was not expecting the 5-min warning that early.
Now, I have to say that in my case it probably made my race more fun and interesting, running from the back and getting to play the hero-driver role, since I was only gridded 11th. However, others closer to the pointy end of the grid were more severely affected, and, IMO, safety was compromised with drivers and crews rushing to get drivers belted in and maybe not getting things properly attached.
An extra 2 or 3 minutes would have made all the difference.
Dave Weitzenhof
Local people
Several of the post have said or implied that local people had something to do with the fiasco on the grid. As RE of the Kansas City Region I must say that is absolutely not the case. We, along with Kansas Region are the host regions for races at HPT through the year. We work extremely hard to take care of the drivers, crews and workwers here at our events and I don't want anyone to think this was in anyway related to our people.
Yes we had a lot of people working at the Runoffs this year but that is really more a function of geography. The Race Chairman has nothing to do with actually operating the event. Once the weekend (or week in this case) starts, everything is under the control of the Stewards. The Chief Steward for the Runoffs is actually chosen almost a year in advance. All of the workers positions, registration, tech, grid are the responsibility of the National Administrators for that specialty.
I was on the grid helping one of my local drivers and we were also surprised. That evening I talked with several of the stewards and the good ones (and there are lots) felt bad and were apologetic. The bad ones (unfortunately there a few) were unapologetic. All indicated that somehow we are somewhat of a slave to the TV coverage - yes I know it's not live and I don't understand it but for some reason that is a huge issue.
As a driver myself, I don't think it is our responsibility to try and count backwards from a green flag time and calculate how ever many pace laps we have with roll off time. It doesn't matter whether driving or spectating, all we want to know is what time cars roll on to the track. If we need to roll off at 12:54 to have a green flag at 1:00 that's fine, just put 12:54 on the schedule. At that point if I'm late it's my fault.
Again, I just want to make sure everyone understands that operating the Runoffs has absolutely nothing to do with the local regions. Hopefully those that attended our races through the year had a great time and were treated well. We want you to come back again.
Bill Johnson
RE Kansas City Region
Last edited by Bill Johnson 42; 10.19.06 at 2:57 PM.
I dont believe "Mr. Holy Topeka" was tied into the complete PA system. He seemed to just be blasting from speakers in the victory circle area. All during test week and race week, we could not hear the pa. We were pitted directly across from the souvenier stand. The few faint calls we did hear were made by the person down at the grid, I noticed this as I was waiting for our sesion to begin. Because James had to buckle up after he secured me in the car, I always made it to the grid rather early, ready to go.
John
John
OK. If that's the case, do you roll out because it is the scheduled time even if there is something blocking the track? Or a guardrail is broken? How is that safety issue really different from forcing the majority of drivers to rush getting into their cars and maybe not belting in properly? Isn't that also a safety issue?Originally Posted by Bill Johnson 42
At least one race was delayed so the TV crews could be ready. This demonstrates that starting at other than the originally-scheduled time was NOT an issue that couldn't be overcome. Wouldn't the race have been better and more beneficial to Speed if all the drivers and cars were able to start from their qualified positions? So why couldn't the roll-out be delayed for just 2 or 3 minutes for the drivers' AND THE TELEVISED RACE'S benefit? Where was ANY consideration shown to the teams and drivers in this situation? I sure didn't see it.
This situation just totally defied logic!
Dave Weitzenhof
Dave - I agree with you completely - there was no logic or consideration applied, period.
I am only passing what I was told. Since I was on the grid for your race helping one of our regions drivers get buckled in and saw what happened, I expressed exactly what you are saying to some of the stewards that evening. I don't agree with or understand it - it is just what I was told. I am a driver myself and I thought the whole thing took a lot away from the race, but of course not Nikis drive.
The main point of my post was to make sure that everyone understands that our local people, including myself are not involved in putting on the Runoffs or how it operates. Several posts have said or implied that and that is just not correct. If you come to one of the races during the year that our regions do put on these kind of things don't happen. We work hard to take care of our guests. Hopefully someone who visisted during the year will chime in here and back that up.
Maybe if any good can come of this we can get the schedule changed to reflect roll off times, which is what we all care about instead of "green flag" times which nobody really cares about.
It wouldn't have happened at Mid-Ohio
Because Kathy Gault would have been running the grid and she loves racing and racers. She has literally reached in my car to help me with a belt that came loose after my crew left to make sure I got out with the field. She is organized, communicates well and makes sure everyone is aware of the schedule and any possible delays!
agreed
I was thinking the same thing Joe. At most of the Cen Div events the grid goes along and verifies that everyone is ready to roll out before they give the signal. While I have not been caught short yet, I always have been under the impression that if I were not ready to go they would make "reasonable" accomodations.
If there is any chance that the Speed coverage can/will jeopardize the administration of this event or make it in any way "less" driver friendly then it would be my position that they go tape more lawn mower races. The coverage is nice, but it is only window dressing. I doubt there are many competitors who depend upon that coverage to finance their program.
Further, from the way this is all playing out I wonder how long it will take for the June Sprints to become the defacto Championship Event??? While that event has had its problems, the Sprints are efficently scheduled, administered and truly showcase SCCA racing. 7+ days for Runoffs is just a bit much.
Runoffs
I was at the HTP June National and Labor Day National. We had no problems like this.I still say that an Operating Steward could have fixed this but probably chose not to or was not made aware by the grid workers.I would like to know why it happened so we can make sure it never happens again.
Starts at the Top
I don't think anyone is blaming KC region. It's an SCCA deal.
A thought came to me on this subject:
I did buy a 2006 Runoffs program. (I know, it difies my el cheapo reputation)
Stuck inside the cover was a loose sheet that was a letter from our new SCCA president, James R. Julow. In it he starts off by saying, "As the new kid on the block, I've never attended the SCCA National Championship Runoffs."
So i thought at that moment... that about says it all!!!
And that's where we are sportsfans.
I did get to visit with Nick Craw in Dave's paddock. (he DID attend a few Runoffs.)
OBTW, on my rant about HPT not being spectator friendly. The track DID do the spectators one favor. The speakers facing the viewing hill outside T2 didn't work... so those lucky souls were not bombarded by "Holy Topeka."
You could listen on an AM radio.
Back to the SCCA. While doing some research, (Actually investigating careers options in SCCA), I found out what some of the salaries were. I'm telling you here and now sportsfans ... you get what you pay for, and we as a club are not paying poo.
From what I've heard, NO! Apparently the best (ok, one of the best) parts of the race is watching you go through the field. I know I'm looking forward to watching.... hell of a race Dave.
Hindsight is always 20/20. The schedule was not clear. Some of the front-runners were late. They made a decision and it was clearly not the right one, but did not have the luxury of our current perspective.
I wonder what the best solution is- say the schedule is clear and you've got guys not in cars at the 5min. whistle. I've been there, rushed to get in and missed an arm restraint which I realized after the race. I've also sat in my car when they have held up the field waiting on one guy to get strapped in... in Savannah when its 100+ outside (thanks Chuck
Sean O'Connell
1996 RF96 FC
1996 RF96 FB
2004 Mygale SJ04 Zetec
Mike:
Lack of effective communications is the primary culprit. To "fix" it, look into the following:
1 - Mandatory Drivers Meeting. There should be a meeting every race day morning for the drivers scheduled to run that day. It doesn't need to be much more than a reminder of how the schedule will go that day.
2 - Post "start" times as being the scheduled time the cars leave the grid, NOT "green flag" time! Stating it as "green flag" time is asking everyone to somehow mentally calculate backwards to get the safe grid arrival time - something all to easy to not have register when quickly looking at the schedule, and even harder if they have no clue just how far ahead of that they will get the 1 minute signal.
3- Get someone on the PA that knows what they are doing ( and get the danged system fixed so that it can be heard throughout the paddock!), and make sure that they announce timely reminders as to what time it is to do what.
4- Make sure the Chief of Grid ( or whomever is in charge there) knows that he/she can, and probably should, delay a roll-out slightly if it looks like a fair number of competitors are behind schedule - one guy late is probably his fault, whereas 5-10 guys late is most likely a communication fault on the part of the people running the show.
5- Look into reducing the number of Pace Laps to one if the schedule is slightly behind. Why the heck do we really need 2 laps behind the pace car? Yes, 2 laps will allow more time to warm the tires, but really, the drivers that qualified should be capable of getting ready to roll in one lap if necessary.
6- Remind everyone that the is a Race Meet, with the drivers being the center of attention, NOT a Workers Meet.
They announced the 2 pace laps due to many races starting with temperatures expected to be still in the 40s. I don't think there would have been 2 had the temps been more seasonable (Topeka averages for that week in October is 70s...but we never saw that during the week).
Tim
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'Stay Hungry'
JK 1964-1996 #25
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