I would like to see a tire rule forcing the 1600 and 2 liter fields to qualify and race on the same tires. Many other series do this and it works to bring out driver skill and stratagy more than money.
I would like to see a tire rule forcing the 1600 and 2 liter fields to qualify and race on the same tires. Many other series do this and it works to bring out driver skill and stratagy more than money.
Give em' Hell Kid!
Holy Topeka
The Gainesville Baller
In Loving Memory of David Dietrich, a father, a friend, a racer.
(1954-2006)
Hmmm....more concerned with the winning and trophy part of it than the i can run what i brung part of it maybe?.....like anybody really gives a rat's as where someone else finished...or is supposed to? let's just go have some fun and not race on the governor's roads. eye really don't care if someone else is buying new tires all the time, none of my business i say...but i really object when others want to tell me what tires i must run cuz there's a lot to choose from and then you factor in buying used tires too and then there's even more choices. the issue of tires can be debated [and will be] virtually forever, let it go and just drive
Do what you want in 1600. But in 2L I don't want any tire rules!
Ditto!Do what you want in 1600. But in 2L I don't want any tire rules
Sean O'Connell
1996 RF96 FC
1996 RF96 FB
2004 Mygale SJ04 Zetec
no tire rule is 1600, .. ..
curtis
Just curious...
1. Is there anyone who does NOT want a tire rule, and lets say it is void during the runnoffs. And if you don't want a tire rule, why?
2. Why do the 2L guys not want a tire rule.
Just curious, thats all.
Well, maybe I am in the minority here.
I don't see a problem with limiting the tires you race on to be the same you qualified on.
You still have the option to race on whatever brand and compound you wish.
I know you are never going to be able to control what people spend to win, but to a degree you can control how much is required.
A rule such as this wouldn't be unique to the FF world. Why do some people go through multiple sets on a given weekend? IMO, because they are not willing to give up the precious .10's during the first few laps because their competitors are on fresh rubber. If their competitors weren't they wouldn't have to be either.
This isn't going to shake up the order on the grid. The guys up front are still going to be up front. They just won't need to spend so much on tires every year. Now they can spend that same $ elsewhere.
Tire rules seem to be a sore subject to many. Don't want to discuss it, the loosely quoted "just shut up and race" response is often what you get unless it is a rule change they are for.
Many are out there just to have fun, don't really care how they finish. More power to them, as long as they are having fun, that's why we do this right? Well, if someone doesn't care what it takes to win why would they care if you now need part XYZ to win, or you no longer need ABC to win...it was never their goal anyway.
the world has not changed, 30 years ago... yes 30 that's when I was racing, the same chatter was going on, teams or individuals with plenty of cash could afford a couple of sets of tires over a weekend, back than, percentage wise tires were very expensive ie: $ 300.00 a set when a great new engine could be had for $ 2,500.00, so a tire rule seemed even more compelling to try to limit costs. There seemed at that time a real desire to find a 4 race weekend tire... lots of dicussions lots of atempts. but nothing final.
I for one think that a tire rule a reasonble idea but difficult to implement when secretly we all desire a fresh set of skins at every race and qualifying it is a major indulgence, just as racing is and ... well how can one limit ones own desires for excess?
Look at me.. I am caught up in restoring the exact Titan I drove 30 years, apt justification to get back into racing ... right?
Old song: If you can't race the one you love... race the one your with... or something like that.
We had a tire rule not that long ago (3-4 years ago mabye: race whatever you qualified on) and, to be honest, even though I was in favor of it then my annual tire budget hasn't changed that much.
Tire rules have a "Feel Good" appeal to them but the reality is that it is a pain in the butt to implement and does not control costs. John LaRue had a post a year or two ago that spoke directly to this subject. If I remember right, he stated that he used one set of tires a weekend in the following manner: Practice on last weeks race tires, scrub new tires during qualifying session, race on qualifying tires. Repeat following week. I think this is pretty typical. To be effective you only have to be careful not to hurt the tires during qualifying. This is pretty much what I have done for many years and it works fine. Anybody that is putting 2 or 3 sets of new tires on during a weekend most likley has a questionable setup on the car. The fewer the rules the better IMHO.
Tim Dunn FF19
If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.
[img]tongue.gif[/img] Many times I'm reminded of the Harley T-shirt I saw about 30 years ago...
"If I have to explain it to you, you won't understand." [img]smile.gif[/img]
The only thing we are racing on is four little rubber patches. Everything we do to improve the car is aimed at making those patches as efficient as possible.
Track conditions and weather change between qualifying and the race. (e.g. March at Road Atlanta)
We are trying to do the best we can on each session. That's why we are in the sport. I'm spending a lot of money to race ten times a year, I don't want to spend one weekend forced to drive around on the wrong tires for the conditions.
As the car engineer I don't want my hands tied.
As the car owner I can get more life out of tires by using them wisely over multiple weekends, and by also being able to not use them when the conditions are wrong for that tyre.
Also, in a selfish vein. [img]graemlins/skull.gif[/img] As long as there is no tire rule, the wealthy will be throwing away perfectly good tyres that I can use very inexpensively.
Tire rules along with many other "Spec Type Rules"
rarely control costs for the end user.They are IMHO a big reason chassis manufacturers and other suppliers cannot survive in the motorsports market place.The incentive for competition amongst
tire manufacturers,engine builders and performance products manufacturers is gone.Do you think that just because someone puts on a new set of tires evey session that gives them an edge the other competitors cannot overcome?The cost of racing will always be a topic of controversy but do you want just anyone to be able to afford to race?How many cars and classes are necessary before the program is so saturated with numbers and diluted amongst so many that it means little or nothing to win.We as drivers are only as good as the competitors we beat and we are measured by our competition every time we race regardless of how much they spend to go racing.
Why does the Formula SCCA class have a spec tire then? -Dave
For FF, .. I still think the best tire rule is the Canadian series.
Treaded tires that you can run for multi week ends, ..
with porper set up of course.
The FSCCA car has a tire rule because a deal was made, ..
tire co. sells more tires, .. offers a SMALL discount, .. and the racer THINKS they are saving money.
Curtis
Curtis, I talked to a couple of the Canadian Ff drivers, from one of the top teams, at Savannah and they both said 2 sets of tires per weekend. You could get by with 1 but they used 2, and you definetly needed new ones next time out. They used 4 sets for the test day and race weekend. They did run a lot of miles on Friday.
FWIW and since this was mentioned elsewhere, ARE YOU LISTENING COLE, I have started every national on the tires I qualified on.
John
eye have no problem with > "race on the tires used in qualifying, change one for whatever reason & start from the rear" ... sure sure, it leads to whining about having to start from the rear for whatever reason that it was.... but someone's going to whine eventually saying "but the reason's not good enough in MY case" ... and they can just go stuff it. A qualifying tire rule??...no problem. a spec tire rule? > opposed.
I personally don't like a tire rule. Even though I have a CF I only buy 160's and whenever there is a tire rule I enter as a FF. I want to learn about car setup and should ultimately buy a FF instead of the older car. Setting a car up with new tires and then chasing it as the heat cycles build up and the tire changes is probably more hassle for the top guys (which I am NOT) than finding the cash for fresh rubber. So those guys would still stick with many sets of new hard tires if hard rubber were mandated. So I say, no tire rule. I have had some excellent deals from National guys who sell of 160's with a few heat cycles on them. I also buy one or two new sets a year. Admitteldy 160's with 12+ heat cycles on them are nasty, so won't do that again for a while. Ultimately for me it more about playing the game than winning the game.
Steve
So been doing this since 77, Joby + Joe shared a car, DW's 67 had no wings but did have Go-Jo, we had not 1 but 2 Eldens over the years (2nd one was orange/ white nose) been on GY 160's, Hoosiers, etc
race with RCCA now (spec tire)
Brother and I both drive in different classes on same weekend, 15-20 races a season, 2-3 sets of tires in a season!
Race the Windshadow Holger A Built (100 Plus on chasis now) we have fun, Folks that want new tires buy them, those that do not do not
It's supposed to be FUN!!!!
By the way Scott I'm only fast in the rain!
Tire rules don't insure that people won't cheat. Some years back we had a close grid and the guy on the pole used another competitor's tires for the race. The borrowed set had only qualifying time, but did have the tech marks showing that the tires had been used (on some car) that weekend.
My two cents...
When I first started in FF, we had the qual/race rule. A year later the rule ended. Regardless of the rules, we bought one new set for the weekend, broke it in during qualifying and then ran the race. The rule only made a difference if, for instance, you burned up a RF and wanted to replace it for the race. I don't think our budget was any lower, and we had the added hassle of switching tires left to right, worrying about punctures, etc.
In Canada, it's true that you can run more than one weekend on a set; the tires don't lose performance as badly as slicks. However, they do slow down after three or four sessions, so all the fast guys have to buy new tires each weekend.
I think a hard spec tire, such as the Hoosier R60 or a good street radial would be ideal, as long as you could get a few weekends out of it. But let's face it- SCCA would probably screw things up and the spec tire would end up being more expensive! You'd have to buy the tires from SCCA enterprises for $1500 a set and then mount them with the white letters facing out to avoid disqualification!
-Clark
Hoosier R60's vs. Goodyear 600's
Been looking at my tire budget for the past season and projecting it for next season and it's kind of ugly.
Going to the harder compounds would MAYBE save me a $1000 over the course of the season (since I run my current tires for 8 cycles - that's 4 qualifying sessions and 4 races - before putting new ones on).
I suppose if you at least had a choice between hard compounds rather than being forced into a single 'spec tire' you could still tweak your setup, etc. so that you could create an advantage based on your chassis's characteristics, which is kind of the name of the game.
In a roundabout way, I guess I'm asking if anybody thinks there'd be a benefit in going to a range of harder compounds...not a 'spec tire', but a choice of longer-lasting rubber that just MAY cut down our expenses a little bit.
I'm not cheap, just kind of impoverished these days and I'd like to save some money. Tires and entry fees are my biggest expenses.
Regards,
Allan
hey guys...
well, my two cents..
i run/ran a club ford and i agree with Roux - i like the 160's.. why - because "I" like them. they are fun and that is why i run/ran... being that i am the team owner and driver it is about what makes me happy...... that is why i liked the way NEC was set up. we had a FF class (whatever tire) and cf class (whatever tire) and a NEC ford class (spec tire) that way, everybody is happy. sooooo. if you want to run r60's and that makes you happy, cooooooool, great for you. and, if you want to run 160's that's cool too. this is america, land of the free.... [img]smile.gif[/img]
and "if" i ever race again, that is the way i'd like it....
IMHO........
Seeeeeeeeeeeeee Ya --- Jer
"Use to be" --- CF #33
We had a tire rule in the past, and while it sounded good, it was filled with problems. For example, what if you have a single bad tire? While starting at the back is always an option, there were many who advocated no penalty for having to change a single tire, while others thought a 1-second qualifying time penalty was sufficient. Marking tires was a problem, too, as it meant that someone had to mark them on the grid and then check each car as it came off the grid after every session. The tire rule died a slow death, but it died. I'd suggest not trying to resurrect it.
Larry Oliver
Larry Oliver
Fellow Competitors,
I like the idea of an even playing field, however it seems on the same scale of probability as Nirvana. When any rule is in place there are those who will circumvent them. Case in point, Car at Roebling Road, a track notable for wearing out tires arrives at qual. grid just in time for tire marking and onto track. Three laps run, pole position. Working late in evening in trailer making template to duplicate painted marks on different set of tires. The lesson is that when we implement rules that are restrictive enough to do anything we burden ourselves with enforcement issues that if someone with enough time and effort can make a mockery of.
Why not hold a post race vote and award de-merits to the racers who do not honor the Spirit of the Rules. This is as gray as many other ideas to implement rules, and it may give the basic club guy the opportunity to beat the unscrupulus win at all cost person.
There always will be the have's and the have'nots, and there are fewer ways to restrict change than there are ideas for change. I like to think that old age and treachery can beat youth and exuberance. I enjoy racing at the level that I can afford, and the fun I have spurs me on to attain the ability to compete on a higher level.
Alan
Just some facts from a tire guy. The only tire rule that seems to work is to run the R60/R600 type where you have a choice between different tire companies. This compound lasts very long and performance falloff is very gradual. It works in the Northeast because everyone in the group there wants it to. They generally go through 2-3 sets of tires a year. Another item that I want to dispell is how many people buy multiple sets in a weekend. The answer is not many in your class. There are a couple in the Northeast and I would expect that to be true elsewhere, but by far the majority buy only one set a race. This is proven out through sales records that I am looking at.
No tire rules! Smart racers will take care of the tires...monied racers will keep the tire guys in business...
a very good moment for me was beating the $$$$ racer on his used tires.
If you want tire rules buy into the FSCCA or produce a national sponsership "deal" with free tires...
If you can't pass'em, scare'em
Reed Martin
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