As an ex-FF driver and current CFC driver I think the SCCA and Enterprises are huge conflict of interest. But if you think that this spec car is the SCCA thumbing it's nose at the FF comunity you missed the Spec Racer Renault. That was the SCCA sticking it to FF. They then stuck to the Renault guys by outlawing those cars and forcing them to buy the Roush (sp) package. SCCA and Enterprises cares nothing for the people that keep the SCCA afloat...the regional club racer.
Dave is correct in asking what a new, top of the line Duratec/Zetec car would cost. The answer is that it would be approximately $5000 less than a turn-key Kent engined FF with a motor built out of all new parts. The actual selling price could be anywhere from $35000 and up, depending on how wild you want to go on the design features, and the level of "std" equipment. A $50000 dollar car is an easy possibility if you go with all of the best & expensive goodies.
The next question is : how much does everyone think a manufacturer should make for a profit? At $35K assembled, profit would be ZERO - not much of an incentive for anyone to spend the $50-100K+ it takes to get a new design produced.
The main cost difference between the 2 types (Kent vs Duratec/Zetec), besides the actual cost of the new engine, would be in engine upkeep. Since I don't pay any attention to the Kent costs anymore (ain't my problem!), my numbers may be off a bit, but I doubt that the serious guys spend anything less than $2-3000 a year to keep it at peak performance. The Duratec/Zetec would cost about $3500 every 4-5 years (5-6K miles). That one hell of a difference!
Conversion costs of older cars is obviously a big problem in the acceptance level we've seen so far with this idea. Even if it weren't an issue, making the Kent competitive with a modern motor may not be possible without turning it into a very expensive grenade.
With the reception I've recieved so far after I floated out the idea of going thru a Duratec conversion, coupled with the realities of the future market (assuming that an open spec Pro series doesn't somehow miraculously materialize), I could give a darn about ever producing a car again - I've got to make a living!
The first question that the Club has to decide is just what the realities are of their ever again becoming relevant to Pro racing - ie - a viable training ground for aspiring drivers. And when I say viable, I mean that the drivers get a level of training that compares to that which we see across the pond.
Frankly, I don't see that as a decent possibility, at least not without some wholesale changes in the structure of the Club, and with massive amounts of support money from manufacturers such as Ford.
Spec cars [b]will not[/b] train drivers to the level necessary to make them internationally competitive. Not unless they make it a really nice car that can be engineered to a fine edge. But, ain't no way you'll get that for $26K!
The next question is: Just how long do they think that whomever is subsidizing this $26K spec car will want to take the hit before the cost jumps up by $10-12k? What happens then? Another new, subsidized car that forces everyone who bought the old one to abandon their investment? Or will they just add [b]another[/b] new class, and divide up everyones track time even more?
So, assuming that the Club realises at long last these realities, don't expect them to ever consider changing FF1600 away from what it is currently. Their interest, as we can all see, is to just pump up the numbers of drivers that pass thru the Club, and make as much money from them while it lasts. Once one market dries up, they'll just invade another. Count on it. FM is already showing how that happens - once sales of new cars of the old design dwindles, [b]force[/b] them to buy a new one.
So, Dave - to answer your last question "is the Club doomed?" : not really, but don't expect to recognise it 10 years from now!
In the meantime, I'll still be hanging around, having what fun I can, wherever I can!
As a guy whos been out of racing for 20 years and thinking about getting back in, all I can say is " my how things have changed ". It seems to me that a lot of the problems stem from the fact that Ford Motor Co. no longer supports the program. Without $, direction, promotion, Etc. the problems will continue. There is so much potential here for so little cost (in auto mfg. company budgets) some smart manufacturer could step in and pick up the program. Formula Mitsubishi ?
Steve Thomson
Owner/partner
ZSports Midwest
steve(@)zsportsmidwest.com
612.964.9572
I'm with John Larue here. I'd put the focus midget motor in my car in a heart beat. Heck, Were still running an iron head I'd much rather put that big $$$ in a focus motor. Hey i won the runoffs and still had to borrow a good head because our three don't make as much HP. I'd run in FA if I could and a get a few people to run against. Anything to stop those F500's from being quicker than us.
BrooksHall, I'm not sure that the Sports Renault stuck it to FF. While I have no documentation to back it up, I would venture to guess that SR brought many new drivers into the SCCA. I know I was one. Now I'm driving FF and seriously doubt I would be driving anything had it not been for SR. Sure, maybe a few FF drivers went over to SR but I would think the class eventually brought more drivers to the FF ranks. Doubt if that would be true with the new spec car being discussed however.
I still think there are some of us out there who WILL support the new car and comments here show that.
I don't see FM being the real alternative to this Mike. The cost is still higher than the ORIGINAL proposed SCCA price. Buuuut, if they keep jacking it up it will be placed in the same range soon. Keep it at $20-22k and you'll have buyers.
As RP says, it won't happen at that level today. Do you work for $5hr any more? The rest of the world doesn't either and the cost of a new car simply can't be had for the target price.
Motor conversions, been there/talked that. All around simply good money after bad to spend on a conversion. Can't be done for the 'VALUE' vs return.
RP and I are going to have to disagree on one thing: (think I'm goona say good drivers don't you!), the cost of engine rebuilds etc. I GUARANTEE you that once everyone is runing the same wiz bang new Z/T/D or J tech motor that the costs of they will go up. Nobody who expects to win wil ever run the car to the max hours it will perform to. I say this with all the years of FM work that I've done both 15 years ago, and the past 6 with tech. If you want to win, you do whatever it takes, and in both series that'll mean fresh motors.
[quote] [/quote]There are quite a few drivers who want or need a simple level of FF. They don't have the time, money or desire to 'tweek' as you may want to. They just want to drive and have a good time. Learn more about shock settings? Couldn't care less. "Just give me a car that finishes, handles the way I like, and that I can polish and call my own". This is as much the club racer as the other levels I'd bet. Target: SCCA
[quote] [/quote]Todd hit the nail right on the head with this. I might be wrong but Id wager that if you checked the demographics of the average SCCA driver, you'd discover the majority of drivers are not young, aspiring pros, but older guys with a bit of disposable income who just want their bit of Walter Mitty on track. There are many weekend warriors in SCCA having fun racing that have no illusions about being the next Andretti. I, like the majority of drivers I've ever met, am in the unfortunate position of having to pursue another career besides auto racing on a full time basis. There isn't a whole lot of time left to wrench,tweak, and engineer a car. To say I can't enjoy club racing because I'll never understand the joy of a third click on a twice dyno'd triple penske is ludicrous.
The idea that SCCA needs to cater to a ladder system for up and coming karting stars is tired.
The reality is most twenty year olds haven't made enough money yet in their careers to outright purchase a new street car let alone a fund a racing effort. The kids who have the economic means to do a full fledged racing effort already have the avenues and schools open to them. Years ago, when the pros mentioned in the above posts were racing with SCCA, it was the only venue in the US for road racing. Skip Barber, Derek Daly, Jim Russell, Bertil Roos to name a few, have opened many different avenues for up and coming drivers.
The new Spec car didn't cause the problems faced by FF. The car is pretty much what a lot of drivers I've talked to have been looking for. Because it's new, certainly controversial, it will probably take a season before you see many at the track, but if the price remains where it is, I'll bet you'll see a bunch more. I just spent $3500 on freshening up the motor for my Royale, I sure wish I could've spent a few more dollars and ended up with a new motor.
Just my humble .02 [img]smile.gif[/img]
Did any of you guys watch the FF race from the Run Offs?
Do you REALLY believe FF is dead?
d
What if the engines were sealed from a factory or engine builder to keep people equal at least on the engine level?
If things can be freshened up to give .01% increase it will be done any cost but not everyone has the money to do that all the time. So what starts happenening is that the only people that win are the ones who have the best and most fresh motor.
It seems that Development is the chassis is much more important for driving training and learning then having an engine you can tweak and rebuild all the time. No matter what engine we end up with I doubht it will be as technologically advanced as the best motors in the world.
So instead of spending money on motors their only purpose is to go a tad faster then the others why don't we spend the money on new chassis designs since even though there are many expert advancements are still happening. Major engine enchancements (based off of what engine that we will be running) will never happen in our class so why not stick with a sealed engine and focus the rest on engineering and math related to the chassis?
Some cars will be able to be converted to a duratec... some not... so make rules that won't totally make the kent FF obsolete.
Then over time if someone wants to take on a conversion they can.... at least at that point we are moving forward.
Chris
Marshall Aiken
www.aikenracing.com
Richard, Ok, now we are making sense with this! You hit the head on the nail, thanks for taking the time to post an answer to my question and I agree with what you said. ( I want be forward thinking! ;) )
Don and I have talked about all this also and the 35K figure is relevant, we should all wonder how this Spec car is selling for 26K?
I keep reading all these conversion posts... Have you guys watched any of the F-3000 races on Speed? Pretty cool right? Way back when the class first started (83-84) the thought was...to be a place (home) for year old DFV F1 chassis like Williams, Arrows,Tyrell etc and Lola built one using a Indy car tub.
The engines were rev restricted cutting the power output and the class ran on smaller F-2 sized rubber and the races were to be shorter so you didn't need a big fuel cell.
So some teams rebuilt these used cars, shorted up the tubs (a result of cutting the cell in half) bolted on the smaller rubber and the DFV with the less hp and headed into the 84 season.
What they didn't count (or didn't see) on was the Ralt and March factories building a brand new car purpose built for the new specs of the class, a smaller lighter car, guess who kicked ass that year and who had instant "show cars"?
What's my point, I'm going to hire Don to build me a purpose built car for the new engine if we go down that road and that's going to cost me.
I really feel that a new class needs to be born here in the States with US made chassis, it really burns my arse that we depend so much on Foreign built cars here in the USA.
Take a look at [url="http://www.falconcars.com"]http://www.falconcars.com[/url] click on photos, why can't somebody like this or Riley and Scott for example and put together a deal for a mass produced American made carbon tub car Junior Formula car? (Ok I can dream right?)
I like the Kent class to be viable (and it is!) and remain seperate,new parts are coming. I'd like to be able to sell my car at some point.-Dave
P.S. Justin, Don called, and he needs your address to send you the bill for the new Zetec :D ;)
[size="1"][ December 11, 2002, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: Dave Hopple ][/size]
Mike Andersen
U.S. F2000 Webmaster
Since we're playing with engine ideas, my ideal would be to open up the rules a la DSR. Come up with a target horsepower. The freedom to experiment and engineer in DSR has me seriously considering converting my other FF (the Jamun) to that class. I hate the idea of a body and would prefer open wheel. DSR without bodies, although 170 hp is too high imho. Probably be better around 130 - 140, then maybe even some tweaked Kents would be competitive. We could let in limited slip diffs, too. And still no wings because that's our niche... the fastest "no wings" class.
Now we are talking.I agree with John and Justin.I am ready to install a Zetec engine in my car anytime.We need to get FF drivers and owners interested moving towards an alternate engine. A new motor could breathe new life into FF and maybe generate some support from Ford.I am for anything that will bring new people into FF and make it more cost effective for existing FF owners.I would even help other people engineer the fitment of the new engine in existing chassis.
By the way I have already done the cost estimate on a Zetec powered FF.My cost if I build 10 cars based on $3500.00 per motor ,costs is just over $30K.
Before I started to rebuild my kent a number of months ago I offered to go the Zetec/Duratec route though it should also be tried on new cars. It's going to take quite a while for the new engine class to get passed and accepted so my investment in my Kent isn't going to go away.
At least now...
Chris
Marshall Aiken
www.aikenracing.com
Here's some more interesting pictures of the Kent Vs Zetec and conversions:
[url="http://my.voyager.net/~quadrant19/xflow-zetec.html"]http://my.voyager.net/~quadrant19/xflow-zetec.html[/url]
[url="http://my.voyager.net/~quadrant19/XF-to-Zetec.html"]http://my.voyager.net/~quadrant19/XF-to-Zetec.html[/url]
Is almost every other country has allowed for the Zetec to be put into FF why can't the US?
Do you think it was easy for them? doubt it... nothing is easy but in today's world the options available out weigh the rules currently in place.
Chris
Chris
Marshall Aiken
www.aikenracing.com
Okay, so what version of this Focus motor would we run? The SCREAM midget? That would be a handful, wouldn't it. Kind of like pre-wings F1 cars. The level of car prep would definitely need to be higher. I'll be one of the guinea pigs if we can come up with an agreed motor. The DSR project would undoubtedly cost a helluva lot more, with the bodywork and a $15k auto-based 2v motor (that's the estimate from Wilcox UK) to compete with the Yamahas. Can our open diffs easily be converted to limited slip? With a big boost in power, are we also then talking FC wheels and tires?
I think it would be best to get a Zetec or Duratec close to the HP we are running and probably no more then 130hp. Our transmissions aren't very strong and currently they couldn't take much more and having to change all of that would get even more expensive. If we get a stock zetec which puts out 100hp and then put headers and a different intake system i bet we would be around the HP that we are now. New bell housings and motor mounts are two of the big fabricating tasks would need to be done... and without loosing tortional regidity so some thought is going to have to go into it.
The increase in HP isn't going to make our cars harder to control... 10-15 hp will make a quicker laptime but it's not like we are going to be ramping off hills like the insanely high HP 1968 F-1 cars.
We are not after faster cars... just a more reliable powerplant that could attract new members and possibly corporate sponsors.
Chris
[size="1"][ December 11, 2002, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Chris More ][/size]
Marshall Aiken
www.aikenracing.com
Anyone interested in acquiring a stock 2.0 Zetec "Focus" engine or a Duratec 2.0 or 2.3 can send me an email or give me a call.
The Zetecs were removed from unsold 2001 Ford Focus cars and are mostly complete minus starter, alternator and ECU control module. Price per engine is $800.dollars plus trucking from Detroit.
I have talked to Sandy at Quicksilver regarding head and block casting numbers for the engines that Quicksilver prepares for racers. These numbers do match. Quicksilver "chokes" the stock horsepower potential to keep the Zetecs from overpowering the older drivetrains by using smaller intake venturis and small-tube headers. The efficient fuel injection system prevents lean-burn or cylinder wash-down. He predicts the Zetecs will last 5 full race seasons then the "core" engine will simply be replaced as the cost for rebuilds will be too expensive.
The Duratecs are equipped similarly with the 2.0 Euro-models having a few less exterior components than the 2.3s. I only have a handful of the 2.0s as there is not a U.S. application. However, I am hopeful to acquire more. The supply of the 2.3s is not a problem as they are assembled in Dearborn, Michigan. Price per 2.3 Duratec is $600.dollars...2.0 Duratec is $800.dollars.
The Duratecs are not an easy install into the FF cars. It appears the Zetecs are a better choice and h.p. output is not a necessity. Reliability and availability is.
There are companys making aftermarket conversions back to carbureted engines...side-draft or down-draft. The Zetec bolt pattern is very close to the 2.0 and 2.3 "Pinto" engines. I do have a few websites showing those conversions or the names of the companys making conversion parts.
Write or call me if you are interested.
Thanks and regards,
Gerry Dedonis
[email]dedonis@kans.com[/email]
785-922-6644
PS...There are other Ford engines in the Detroit warehouse. I noticed some with a 2.0 liter designation from Mazda and Zetecs with a 1.8-2.0 liter stamp on the intake manifold. They were shipped by mistake from the Mexico plant. I'm checking to see if they are for sale too.
If Jim said the class is dead that is fine. But he is an employee of Enterprises. Which has NOTHING to do with FF as a class.
If we are going to start this engine this and engine that....great. But come on, how many times as each and everyone of you posted the same things on this site.
SCCA Enterprised may want FF dead, but the SCCA National Office does not want to kill us off.
2003 VanDiemen FSCCA #29
Follow me on Twitter @KeithCarter74
Joe,
What's your suggestions on taking the first step as apposed to just talking about it on the net forever?
Seems like they are many more people interested in it this time around compared to the FFU. We don't want to get in any stupid fights or hurt anyone's feelings so lets just be open minded with both the conservative and liberal views.
Chris
Marshall Aiken
www.aikenracing.com
Talk to Gerry Dedonis offline. He can provide a lead to a supplier that can sell a sealed ECM for any fuel injected engine that limits the fuel and air flows, thereby controlling the HP and rendering any internal "tricks" useless.
Option 1:You guys can write a proposal to the Comp board for anything you want...if you believe some members, the SCCA doesn't care about FF and should approve anything we (you) ask for. The target HP is 115 to avoid making the rest of us spend money to keep up.
Option 2: Put any engine you want at any HP you want and run in FS. Better yet, put in an engine set to 115 hp as suggested in option 1 and PROVE (while running in FS) that you don't go any faster with a Zetec/Duratech! Taking this route, you can eventually "sell" the members of the class on the idea and in the meantime quit dreaming about it on this forum. Of course, you will be getting your butt kicked by everything else in FS while you play. BTW - I'm NOT against a new engine side by side with the Pinto but, like Joe, I am really tired of talking about it.
I know, I know, I can quit reading this thread :confused:
Chris, not to be lazy but I dont care. I like the FF. I tried the wings and it was fun, but FF is great. I really do not care what kind of engine is in the car. I would buy my old car, John Larues car or a new one tomorrow if I felt that the class had a stable engine program. Yes, it is stable with the pinto but it really needs a change. I spent a lot of money keeping that little engine in the HP range it was. I am a weekend racer that wants to take the family to the track and have fun. So, if the pinto stays, great. But new parts need to keep coming out. The crank is a good start. But it is still pushing the envelope on developement. If Ford has all these new engines that we can just throw away after 3-5 seasons and buy new ones a few grand. What are we waiting for? Lets all go race FS. But that would never happen, the group is split in many different directions on that. So in comes Fran Am and Spec this and that to make the decision easy for us.
If 10-20 guys would just convert the FF to a new engine and make it work...SCCA would make a home for it. In a few years we could have the field covered with the new engine package. Now, although I am being lazy...I would fork up the money if enough guys committed to it. But I do not have the time or desire to start a gold rush.
2003 VanDiemen FSCCA #29
Follow me on Twitter @KeithCarter74
Since FF1600 is a standing class with the 4th highest participation numbers, it is in no danger of going away and it certainly is not “dead”. It might be argued that it is not as relevant to the “ladder” system as it once was but I think this is due mostly to the natural evolution of other racing classes and to changes in the “paths to stardom”. The major causes of FF’s change in stature or significance have been the proliferation of, and interest in, wing cars and the huge shift in amateur racing that occurred when the various Skip Barber type series became so dominant. And, of course, history was altered when the Swift wiped out the other builders and inter-marque competition disappeared.
Be that as it may, Formula Ford 1600 – the subject of this Forum – will be around for many years to come. The potential effect of any kind of SCCA Spec car on Formula Ford 1600 may be debated but any car such as has been proposed is another animal altogether. So in that sense, the spec car is irrelevant to our class. In the end the marketplace will decide who buys what and who drives what. Likewise, any attempt to create a “new” Formula Ford type car is irrelevant to FF1600 as we know it. Since it is an existing class with its own firmly established set of rules, its own community and its own history, it cannot be co-opted by another kind of car or another kind of engine. The fact is, any new car/engine combo will be, by definition, a new class and it will have to run in FS until numbers are established. So Formula Ford is not “dead” and it cannot be killed off by the creation of a new class of car with a hi-tech engine. Will a new open wheel hi-tech car class have an effect on Formula Ford? Yes, of course it will. But it will not divert most of those who are interested in the basic nature of FF1600.
Since any new chassis/engine combo will necessitate all new chassis, new tranny adaptors, new engines, considerable development, etc., the costs will be, as Richard stated, anywhere from $35,000-50,000 per car. Clearly, while there may be some number of current FF1600 competitors who will want to get into a new machine of that type, the great majority of people involved in FF1600 will not be switching anytime soon.
Is a new, hi-tech open wheel car a good idea? I’d say yes for at least these three reasons: 1) There is a tremendous and almost phenomenal lack of interest in direct involvement with engines – most of all, with what some consider an “antique” engine. Most guys nowadays want to just bolt it in and run it. If you can actually believe you’ll get five years running out of a sealed engine, then that’s a great selling point. 2) Many believe (and I’m not sure it is true) that a whole new car and engine combo with hi-tech characteristics is a sure fire seller because people want new hi-tech cars – they want to be “with it” – and who can blame them? 3) And this is the best part: A new car/engine combo would be a smash hit and a great success all around if it were MADE IN USA! That is DESIGNED in the USA, all or most of the parts made in the USA, powered by an engine made in the USA and so on. There is one catch, however: The designers of such a car must ask how they can create an entirely new concept so that the whole thing can be rolled up onto a trailer for not one cent more than, say, $30,000? The race car engineers in this country might consider starting fresh and, in fact, they might all work together to create an original concept which will guarantee that the goal can be reached within a fixed budget. Even a radical concept like the use of a motorcycle engine should be considered. But still, one must also ask if such a car - without wings - really addresses the desires of the potential market.
So yes, go for it. Be pro-active. Go to the SCCA and make a concrete, proposal to them. Invite their support. Suggest that they tear up any agreements they are contemplating with Van Diemen or Mazda. Show them you have a better idea. Show them that the US racing industry has a better idea and a plan to carry it out. Set some target dates. Do it. But one thing to keep in mind: Formula Ford 1600 exists. It’s not some old defunct class collecting dust over in the corner. And so - this new class? It will need a new name. Because Formula Ford lives!
Dale Carter
2003 VanDiemen FE #29
Life is Good
Well I hate to say it but the best thing to do when you don't like what's going on where you're at is go somewhere else.. When your club which is your entertainment and personal hobby gives you grief it's time to look around..
I chose to join ICSCC up here in the Pacific Northwest not only because it's a good bunch of folks whom still run their club as a club but also because there's so many other "older" folks (meaning past prime)like myself whom just want to get out have a good time and shake it up 12 times a year on great tracks with great people :)
As a matter of fact the field is often 13 cars or better in my class. Many drivers are also Pro SCCA and FIA licensed.. You want eye candy watch a Pro driver go by you in his Formula Atlantic!!
Well spoken, John.
i want 178 hp. We will have to drive! Open diffs still! Did you all see how fast and cool the stohr DSR was? He had to be doing 120 on the front straight at MO. Nick can you imagine 178hp at texas, talk about turn one!!!
Hey I can dream...........
that would seperate the men from the boys.
Chris More said it well, but missed the mark by just a bit, IMO.
In the "rest of the racing world" there is a class on the pro-ladder called F3, a fairly AFFORDABLE spec class.
I realize that we all love our FF's and we have investments to protect. But go back and re-read some of the posts and get the kleenex out.
Richard Pare, if only you could use your considerable reasoning skills on a BoD position, I would vote for you, you speak well to the facts and solutions, but are preaching to the choir here.
I'll keep racing my good ol' Zink Z10 as long as my budget allows. To be truthful, I would be buying this new spec car, if I could afford it, long before I would buy a new FF. Looking from a purely financial point of view, you could get this new car with a full compliment of spares for the same money. It would also allow me, in particular, to be at less of a disadvantage by not having to weigh down the car with all the crap I need for my shifter. [url="http://www.dominiontitleservices.com/racepics.htm"]http://www.dominiontitleservices.com/racepics.htm[/url] to see why I need a "shifter".
I probably speak for alot of people, but can't give a number, when I say, who gives a **** about being able to become a racecar engineer? I just want to race, be fair, not have to spend every penny I earn looking for a slight advantage, and do it well for as long as possible.
And Dave Hopple, betting on football games? Isn't that kinda like being in the 3rd grade? LOL
It would seem that either everyone has changed their minds since FFU, or the a huge number of FFU guys are not on this board. Everyone is pro new motor.
A) If I wanted to buy an eventual CF/FF that was updated with a new motor, how much would it cost me? If some guy dumped a ton of time and labor to convert, it is going to pass to me. I am not going to spend 20+ on a used car.
B) What about the Spec Car as Level 1 to formula cars, then build something with a chevy v8 or v6 as the next rung in open wheel. What could be cheaper? What would sound better? An awesome spec motor could be made with off the shelf parts.
20K something is attractive, 40K something is not. A new motor full of old parts/technology for 8K is not very attractive either.
I think all points have been made and we all know where we stand.... maybe we should just let this brew in our mind for a while.
A lot of good points of view here.
The only point that I would like to make that keeps bothering me is that a spec car that is not 100% adjustable would not create a 100% driver... I don't think I agree. As I said before we don't live in a utopia and not every single car we are ever going to drive is going to be the best car out there. With this reasoning midget or sprint car drivers must not be 100% drivers because they have many rules to limit development. If you look close at those cars they aren't that hi-tech in terms of geometry and other aspects. Just because a car isn't 100% doesn't mean that drivers can't adapt and make the car do things it normally can't. Also all the showroom stock drivers must not be that good either because they are running on factory engineered cars and not a full racecar.
You know what I enjoyed doing in autocrossing is taking my 87hp fiero 4-cyl in killing almost anything that came up against including very expensive sports cars. Since the fiero wasn't a 100% engineered car does that mean I'm not a good driver? I’m not saying I’m a genius driver but I still had a good time and won almost all the events in my class.
I agree that a driver may learn bad habits but what about go-karts?? They don't have shocks and almost nothing is adjustable on them and they produce the best drivers in the world. Go karts are about the most spec class you could imagine because they are so simple but effective. Effective because they are easy to get in too, tons of parts, tons of competition and kids can get sponsors to help them on the bills and move into bigger classes.
I love technology and I just stand in awe in front of an Audi R8 for example. I hate nascar and pretty much all oval racing... I don't like the idea of traction control or ABS nor do I like hydraulically controlled shifting system that takes all the guess work out. Half the world is over engineering everything to death and are having financial problems and loosing fans. The other type of racing is much simpler and they are thriving.... which doesn't make me happy.
I like hi-tech cars but I still like emphasis on the driver and not who has the best engineer or spent the most money to get every trick part known to man.
(put a sock in it, chris.) [img]smile.gif[/img] shhhhhh
Chris
Marshall Aiken
www.aikenracing.com
Karts not adjustable? Have you been in one lately?
dave
I'm almost tempted to spend a few hours putting start dates on the now more than 3 year old "we need a new engine" debate and see if there are natural or circadian or lunar cycles that match up with the start dates. There must be something that kicks this phenomenon off!!!
For those of you who missed the first 3 years of endless speculation, the engine,chassis, gearbox, wings/no wings, splitters/diffusers ad nauseum are already available, it's called FS, and you don't have to write one single letter to SCCA to get permission to run in it. Unless of course you are FranAm, but that is another story.
gm
Many of us have grown tired of the endless debate about FF engines. The bottom line is that it is not cost effective to change engines in our cars. Nuff said
Talk about Deja Vu. Want proof that Formula Ford 1600 is alive and well? Go north. We're waiting for you.
We're set to release the Canadian Formula Ford Championship 2003 schedule within 2 or 3 weeks (I will post it on this forum). We're working on a northeast US venue to include in the calendar. Come race in front of packed grandstands at the Canadian Grand Prix in Montreal, the Toronto Molson Indy, the Grand Prix of Trois-Rivieres. Experience the newly renovated circuit Mont-Tremblant and Mosport. Talk to your fellow SCCA racers who have tried us out... lots of track time, top notch competition, nationally televised races, reasonable prize money and a helpful staff dedicated solely to this one series.
Our rules are basically identical to SCCA. Your licenses are accepted. We want to make it easy for you to join our series, so let us know how we can help you.
Please contact me with any questions.
Thanks and Happy Holidays,
Eric Berman
Canadian Formula Ford Championship
tel: 514-487-6900 x 239
fax: 514-487-4778
[url="http://www.formulaford1600.com"]http://www.formulaford1600.com[/url]
It's not economically feasible from who's perspective? The newbie coming in, the existing car owner or a future participant? If we don't take the necessary steps to insure an adequate supply of replacement parts will FF1600 as it stands now be feasible? If it takes 8K for a competitive motor now what will it take when the supplies of block, pistons, rods etc. dry up? If we don't take the necessary steps ourselves to broaden the interest in FF1600 now the ranks will continue to dwindle and investment you are so dearly trying to preserve will be worthless. A simple scan of the the classifieds proves this as DB1s (the de facto standard for competitive fords) have dropped in price by 3 to 4 K over the past 2 years! We can put our head in the sand and insist that the numbers are sufficient to guarantee it's survival but there are no guarantees particularly from an organization bent on turning a profit and being the next NASCAR/NHRA. I propose that we pummel the competition board with requests for alternative parts for the next few months, if we get no-where we must look at alternatives. Does it have to be new? No, look at a modern engine design with plenty of production numbers and a devout following. An example would be the 1.6 Honda engine or something similar. Thousands, if not millions were sold, tons of kids are tuning on them already, they are compact efficient and powerful. Would there be conversion costs? Yes but with the talented engineers, fabricators and machinist involved in our class this could be minimized and possibly packaged. I own 2 1600 motors and a ton of spares, I don't like the prospect of flushing all of it for a new motor. But if it results in 20 plus car fields, interest in our class by new racers and having it once again recognized as a training ground for future professional racers I would gladly trade it. I also think putting our eggs in one basket (SCCA) is a mistake, we should begin new organizations or join the alternative organizations to broaden our appeal and audience. As evidenced by John's original post, SCCA, if they had our true interest at heart would not allow anyone associated with them to make these types of comments. It is therefore in our best interest to protect what we have and plan our own future.
I am sure there are enough vintage cars running that use the 1600 to always find a buyer. If there was a motor change, the demand is there for the used 1600's.
I told my self I wasn,t going to say anything else about an alternate engine, so this is my last. Excepting the cost of the different engine itself, what does any professional shop think it will cost to do a swap? If you can do it in your garage, what do you think it will cost?
Opps! Sorry about that... I haven't looked at a kart lately and I see you can now adjust camber, caster, king pin, etc. Pretty cool!
>Karts not adjustable? Have you been in one
> lately? dave
Ok... i'm done with this discussion on a new engine. I would be happy with keeping our new engine as long as I know that parts aren't eventually going to dry up. If the lighter flywheel and some aftermarket parts were legal I would be happy and I’m sure others. I just think having rules in place that cost people money and have no other valid reason when there are good alternatives isn't right.
If you are happy with the current state of Formula Ford and the current engine - so be it. If it works for you then all is good in your perspective.
Though discussing ideas to make our beloved cars more popular and to ensure that we are more then a vintage class (in the future, not any time soon) isn't the work of the devil.
Chris
p.s. I don't know about how the computer talk lately... and what's this new thing called the internet... I don't what good it is for...I think I will stick with faxing, the postal service and the telephone. I don't see any advantage to all this techno-jive... So me and my 8-track will live happily ever after.
(note: extreme sarcasms and meant to be only funny, not offensive)
Marshall Aiken
www.aikenracing.com
If I thought there would be a market for an installation kit for the Zetec engine for FF's like DB1 or DB6 I would start working on it tomorrow.We have to realize if this class is to survive and thrive we need a new, more cost efficient engine.The class will probably survive without a new engine but it will slowly decline as it has been doing. Without organization and effort toward making the Kent much more cost effective and making parts more available it is going to be tough.I love FF and have been racing them for twenty years but I want to race against more than just a few cars and as of late only the Sprints and the Runoffs have 20 plus car fields.When do we stop arguing and start realizing that some real truths have to be reckoned with?We FF people are not stupid but we as a group look foolish to other organized class groups.I would like to take a poll from people who not just own cars but race them more than a few weekends a year as to whether they would support a new engine or not.If you don't race 5 weekends a year, then you are not nearly affected as others who race 8-12 weekends a year.Maybe we could have a poll set up by the FF1600.com folks and figure this out.If the FF people don't want a new engine, then so be it, but I think it is time to put up or shut up.
Fellow Racers:
I probably have as much of an investment in FF and the Kent as anyone, yet realize that the class (FF) is dead as far as future growth unless something drastic is done in the engine department. I do not believe that a new engine would diminish my investment, in fact the more racers, the more cars running, the stronger the value. Unless we have new participants, interest from car manufacturers and other part manufacturers we are doomed to become vintage. At this time no manufacturers are interested in developing cars for this class despite their love of it. (Sauce, ICP, Stohr...?) I this what we want? Is this good for the class? I do not think so.
Essentially the Kent was chosen in the beginning to power this car because of its abundance, low cost and good performance. Today it simply does not satisfy these criteria and hence, the class is suffering. To bring FF back to what it once was we need an engine in good abundance, at a low cost and that offers good performance. Face it, the primary reason DSR is growing is due to the low cost engines. As the saying goes, "the more things change, the more they stay the same". It is time for change, not talk.
One of the most interesting observations I have made however is that it appears most of the "opposition" to adopting a second engine has been voiced by people who by and large have less invested and are already running somewhat vintage equipment "ala" CF. It is the CF racers, not the National FF racers who are most vocal and want things to stay status quo. These are the people SCCA hears.
The problem with the FF is that there are two diverging interests and voices, one in pursuing new cars, new engines and technology at a reasonable price and others intrested in maintianing the status quo. Face it, we have two different classes here!
Not to draw lines or create problems, but there are differences and this is the casue for the confusion amongst the "outsiders" as to what FF wants and needs. Look at the FC site and reference the comments about how we bicker amongst ourselves. They don't have as much of a problem as there simply are not that many CFC's.
I can see the point of view of CF racers and do not disagree. Perhaps the CF class should not be changed. It is club ford and the class is controlled to some extent in its development. Leave it alone, but don't kill off the new FF racers and growth of the class in the process. If CF racers want to run older cars and eninges that is fine, but the class needs to attract new blood.
We need to work together and bring resolution, not stand toe to toe arguing what is best for each of us respecitively.
Bringing in a new engine on an equivilency formula would give a choice to the FF class and likley bring a number of Kents to market for FF's that want to retain Kent power or for CF racers or vintage racers. I don't see how that does anything but help.
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