Inquiring minds want to know... Is FA in this year's Runoffs? And, if so, are they in a combined run group or not?
2023 Runoffs
Inquiring minds want to know... Is FA in this year's Runoffs? And, if so, are they in a combined run group or not?
They were lumped into FC after only 3 cars registered, and then the 3 entries voluntarily withdrew so as to not mess up the FC race.
Van Diemen RF99 FC
Seriously?
The memories of Klausler, Rahal, Cobb, Cogan, Lazier(s), Smiley, Brown, Firestone, Schroeder, Marvin, O’Connor, Duclos, Wood, and others are suddenly more profound — and for me anyway remain the best of the Runoffs, ever.
If the current Atlantic guys had allowed their egos to go a hair slower to run with F1000, this wouldn’t have happened. Off to vintage with the lot of Ya.
Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
https://ericwunrow.photoshelter.com/index
Are you confirming they did it voluntarily, or is that an hypothesis?Originally Posted by rockbeau25
Dean Fehribach
Car owner: SCCA Enterprises FE2 chassis #037.
Car owner: 2017 Ford Mustang EcoBoost Autocross STU
Per LaRue on Facebook, it was voluntary.
Van Diemen RF99 FC
FA
If SCCA wants to keep FA alive they need to get F1000 cars out of the shops by finding away for them to be competitive. The FB guys Killed FB due to the some F1000 owners wanting their own group without the numbers to prove it, and not letting the class grow into its own group, so then SCCA dumped them into FA with a built motor of around 200 hp if 2007-08 engines at $10k-12k and now maybe 225 hp with 2017-23 engines at $12k to 15k but with 016 swifts with big motors it tough so FB's are sitting in shops or maybe becoming P2 cars, but with that being said the F1000 cars are a great class and will race some but not at the runoffs. IMHO
Slowing down high dollar 016 will be a hard sell to the owners of those cars but it may be necessary to save FA,
As far as F1000 they should be in FC with some kind of restriction and that would help FC grow also because most of them were FC cars to begin with just different motors. IMHO.
Not being argumentative, but curious why you think SCCA might want to keep FA alive?
We raced FA for years, great class, hate to see it die, but it priced us and many others out; I see no reason why scca would strive to keep it.
Nostagia isn't scca's business model, that's why Tony thrives.
We ALL say there are too many classes, maybe 3 runoffs entries signals times up on this class?
Talk the F1000's back out on track in sufficient numbers and rename the class?
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
Couldn’t the entire problem be solved with restricted intakes on Atlantics?
I get that it’s hard to spend money on a Swift just to go slower, but that sure beats being garaged.
Regardless, we’re still driving just under 2,000 miles to attend. We’ll be in a burnt orange VW van, for all nine days, if anyone wants to visit.
Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
https://ericwunrow.photoshelter.com/index
that is a joke asking FA to slow down for cars in a class that died are you guys kidding, just to stay in scca no way find another place
I will all but guarantee that the SCCA will keep FA alive in one form or another. It was a huge mistake and failed experiment to dump a reasonably priced class with multiple active chassis builders into one of the most expensive classes that hasn't had a new chassis built since 2006. Which class do you think they were trying to save in that move? My selfish preference would've been to keep F1000 as it was and move it to Regional status. At least then the class stays intact and the car owners have the opportunity to race somewhere without spending $20K on an engine. That's what they do with classes they invented (FX) or want to continue propping up (FA, P1). I'll never understand why that wasn't an option for F1000 but I have my theories. The makeup of the CRB should give you a hint.
It’s not a joke that SCCA still needs a premiere Formula car class.
There’s a lot of these cars around, and for better or worse, the Runoffs are still the National Championships. All the threads here about merging FA and FB demonstrated both interest and resistance to change, and the only way for FB to have a chance was with high-dollar motors. Supporting F1000 manufacturers is only good for racing, and a shame to force them out.
The classes are only a few seconds apart, and to me anyway are the two coolest classes in the Club.
Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
https://ericwunrow.photoshelter.com/index
I have to smile. FB was in FC (Formula Continental, as was), along with some other waifs and strays like FSV. Then, in (?) 2005, Jeremy Hill started spanking the pukka F2000s in his Photon, and got slapped with a weight penalty just before the Runoffs. I seem to recall a many-page thread here on Apex.
The upshot was that FC became a pure F2000 class, FB its own National class, and FSV shoehorned into FA.
Rust Cohle said it, "Time is a flat circle. Everything we've ever done or will do, we're gonna do over and over and over again."
I would be curious to see the results of polling FC drivers on whether to bring back the old Formula Continental.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
FA
I agree
I am one of the PASS FA owners that was forced out of real FA due to cost back in the day, but in IMHO SCCA looks at real FA cars as the closest thing to INDY any F1 cars it has and therefore must find a way keep it alive. The problem is the real cost of real FA cars causes most club owner to look at another class because they can't afford them. Putting F1000 in FA raised the cost of F1000 and they can race during the season as long as the high dollar cars don't show up and then to spend tons of money at the Runoffs hoping to be competitive just does not make sense. I heard that in 2024 some of the restrictions on the MAZDA motor FA cars will be lifted and they will even have more HP, and that will not help the F1000 cars be competitive at the Runoffs. IMHO
I don't have a horse in this race but the common theme seems to be that costs are simply too great for someone who is not very wealthy. That is the bane of all top shelf SCCA racing and has been IMHO the true root cause of declining classes.
It does not help when what started out as a relatively cost effective class, F1000, was forced to spend huge amounts of money to stay within sight of the leaders in FA, forget about actually being competitive.
F1000 really blossomed when it was first introduced, but costs in general got out of control with built engines, new chassis, and so forth, IMHO. And they really made a great noise!!@!!!
SCCA's own participation rules may drive FA to a "regional only" class, where they'll be lumped in with every open wheel car that shows up....
Pretty sure we can guess how many 016's will choose to run under those conditions
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
engines
The engine cost was great until SCCA put F1000 into FA, before that a Ebay motor was $3000.00 and because the rules said F1000 engines had to be STOCK so no built motors or ECU that kept the cost down, then once FB became FA that's when the craziness started A stock 2008 motor made about 165HP now a built 2008 motor will make about 200HP cost was $10-12k, then the new motors came 2017 and up STOCK 200 hp and then build them up to 230HP $15-18k.
Most if the guys kept the 2008 motor and maybe built it because the new motor update is expensive and your still behind the 016 Mazda why do it?
Ebay stock motor 2017-2023 $8k-10K and by the time you build it $15k-18k
SCCA should have put them in FC with stock motors and restrict them down to match FC motors, it would be like FC getting newer designed cars with lower cost motors.
That is why I believe SCCA do whatever crazy idea they have to save the FA class.
I'm not an FA driver, but I'm saddened to see the fastest, premier open-wheel class having so much trouble. So, are we at the point where there will just never be enough true FAs--Swifts and Ralts--racing to keep the class afloat? I understand that by now it's costly vintage racing, and it's not sustainable. A shame.
I'll bounce a radical idea off you guys...what if we aimed to match up speed of the oddball cars thrown into the class--FBs, Pro Mazdas, F3s--and slow the OG FAs to match the newer cars. If the old cars can't be counted on to carry the class anymore, maybe the class should move foward. How far would mandating Swift/Ralt flat bottoms with limited diffusers go in matching them to newer cars? I'll go hide behind a bench now...
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
remember your history guys.
F5000 used to be FA. got too expensive, not a lot of cars
IIRC, the 1600 cossies became FA. Lotus twincam FBs disappeared for a long time before emerging in vintage
FB could be FA and send all the previous FAs to vintage.
Doubt the SCCA will do that though - tube frame F1000s don't have the tech they want to be top shelf.
Hey! Maybe they'll take the F4 cars and PFMs and stick the bike motors in there and have a carbon tub class they can call FA that won't break the bank.
I have no dog in any of these 'fights'.. but.. don't I remember that there were 14 or 15 FA's at the June Sprints?? What happened... did they all crash out?
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
They were primarily F1000s and Pro Mazdas. That’s fine at Majors races, but if you’re a Pro Mazda owner and a competently driven 016 or 014 registers for the Runoffs, what reason do you have to go? That’s many thousands of dollars in entry fees, travel, hotel, tires, a week off of work, etc to bring a knife to a gun fight.
Van Diemen RF99 FC
There were several F3s (or FR Americas) at the Sprints too. But if one .016 shows up, they're all racing for 2nd. Could limiting the old Atlantics and building the class around the newer cars be a path to save it?
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
As long as a sufficient number (50? more? fewer?) of people invested in the new cars. Does that market exist?
That is really the nub of the problem -- whether there is an untapped market for high-end open-wheel cars, and how to tap it. It really becomes a circular problem -- a vibrant class will attract new entrants, but how to build a vibrant class essentially from scratch?
And that does not resolve the problem of how to class the existing FB (F1000) and FA cars in this new architecture.
The elephant in the room is the long-term decline of open-wheel racing in North America. I am not convinced that creating yet another class is the answer. That does not resolve the existing FA/FB/FC problem. I see only two possibilities: (1) one or two classes revert to Regional status; or, (2) FA gets restricted to equate with FB or FB gets restricted to fit with FC. Hard to see current FA or FC owners being thrilled about that.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
Cost of Formula Cars
Several of the above posts cited the cost of racing as an issue, and maybe the biggest issue. I don't see much of a future for formula car racing unless we can get the costs back down to where if is affordable for a guy making medium income or a bit better.
Of all the cans mentioned above, the least expensive is F1000. But when we allowed build engines, the cost exploded. Unfortunately, motorcycle technology has evolved to the point where todays stock bike engines will not function in a car application. The 08 Suzuki was the last easy engine to adapt to a formula car. I believe a recent national champion was able to get a Kawasaki to run well by back dating the induction and ECU systems. But that is not a good basis for a class to grow in the future.
From a cost perspective, I think bike engines are the only answer. You can buy a new bike, complete for less than the transmission and bell housing costs for an automobile engine application. Building the rear end assembly that will turn a bike engine into a car engine can be done for surprisingly little money, relative to the equivalent package of bell housing and transmission in a typical formula car. The trick today is what it takes to get the engine to run in a car. Solve that problem at a reasonable cost and we might see a growth in total formula car racing.
I had a fair amount of experience as a race engineer in FA. My favorite car was the Ralt RT40. It was one of the easiest cars to get right for a driver that I ever worked with. And if the car had not been penalized with rules requirements, it would have continued to be the FA winner for years after it went out of production.
Kinda funny - the club disenfranchised the owners in this class several times in a money chase, and then we ask "what went wrong?"
You had the Cosworth 1600 cars, arguably which the highest car count for the series, ever. Then chasing Toyota money they adopted that engine, and correct me if I'm wrong - it was more expensive, more powerful, and more fragile than the previous generation.
Then they adopt spec cars which were slower, and their response was to handicap the older, faster cars to make that decision work.
Then, in a fit of total idiocy, they allow the series (Vickie O'Connor?) to make a MUCH bigger spec car, with a MUCH larger and MUCH more powerful engine, and then ties their future to CART.
After CART, Indycar comes up with its own ladder and shuts the door on FA. There's never going to be any club crossover anymore. The demographics and economics have changed forever. These feeder series now stay with a spec car until its all used up, and they don't want the back of the grid filled with old farts in the previous generation model (which might have an engine that's no longer a sponsor) that might get in the way of their moneyed rising stars.
Then the club goes through this period of time where they experimented with all kinds of engine equivalency rules, but nothing really takes off, along with the FB debacle.
Stick a fork in it, FAs done as the prestige class we once knew. Meanwhile, there will be a constant drumbeat to accept the pro castoffs into club racing to keep propping up the numbers of cars in classes where there's no longer sufficient new production. I've seen this movie before....
FA
It is sad that FA is struggling, as someone who has seen the hay days of FF-FC-FA and completed in all 3 classes and was one of the first drivers to start F2000 when we all wanted to have wings on our FF's and bigger motors to look like Indy cars and run the pro series in Canada it is sad, But SCCA will not listen to the people that have spent the money to enjoy this sport, The F1000 cars want to go to the runoffs if they can be competitive in ANY class, these are great cars but in FA they will not spend the thousands of dollars to chase real FA cars at the runoffs. Myself and most other owners would LOVE to own REAL FA cars it is just not affordable. BUT I understand that the owners of the REAL FA don't want to go slower, and really don't want F1000 in there way, it's like putting wings and things all together at the runoffs. So put F1000 in FC with engine restrictor if you use a stock 07-08 motor one size mm if you use a 17-23 motor or built motor a bigger mm restrictor. As far as FA do the same thing if you have a 016 Mazda or any Mazda put a restrictor on them to get the OLDER REAL FA out of the shops, if SCCA wants to save FA you need the OLDER REAL FA cars to run also, those owners have parked them also. I also think FC will benefit with Newer design chassis with MC motors being built. OR if F1000 stays in FA slow down the REAL FA cars so the F1000 cars go to the runoffs.
Last edited by david oleary; 09.17.23 at 12:34 PM.
I couldn’t agree more with Steve and Rick and David.
Yep, that was Vicki’s move and right away it seemed a mistake to me. A lifetime friend was Vicki’s right hand for the first decade so I heard what was really up... but, Vicki was an absolute dynamo who did much good for FA and S2 when few would have or could have. You probably know that Vicki’s husband Bill was himself a great driver in Atlantic, in the hardest days (‘70s), and co-owned an ad agency, and that was a perfect match for Vicki.
To me as an observer only, I was genuinely pumped when seeing the first F1000 Stohr at the “DSR Party” in Topeka. Once seeing them run, more inspired than pumped. I think it’s the best class to enter Club racing for decades — and can’t even think of anything else that even approached it.
My old school self would much prefer a grid of those with five or so F1000 manufacturers, and varying motors, than any short grid of spec Atlantic cars. This deal needs some serious moderating to make the parties see what’s been lost and how to find it again.
I’m beggin’ Ya.
F600 is of interest on the bike motor front, and have little idea why it’s also hurting — but suspect it’s their size and design that aren’t appealing to too many. As a karter, we almost bought one as a natural fit, but have done way too many VW bus repairs to ignore that experiential value.
Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
https://ericwunrow.photoshelter.com/index
I wouldn't tie that move to Vicky.
You can put that one on CART.
They needed a bigger car to feed their series since the IRL took the lights cars.
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F600 is of interest on the bike motor front, and have little idea why it’s also hurting — but suspect it’s their size and design that aren’t appealing to too many. As a karter, we almost bought one as a natural fit, but have done way too many VW bus repairs to ignore that experiential value.
When I first saw Jay Novak with his F600 many years ago, I made a comment to him that I thought he had the right motor in the wrong chassis.
I still think that the 600 cc bike engines in a Formula Ford type chassis would be a very popular class and the car can be built for 1/2 of what a new FF costs today. I think it is possible to buy a FF and convert the car to a 600 cc bike engine and then sell the Ford engine, transmission and bell housing for possibly more that you paid for the FF in the first place. And in the end, you might have a faster car to boot.
That “mystery chassis” you drew up looked pretty good... was hoping something would have come from that...
The 600s’ arrival was transformative, but also dismissive from the 2-strokers that had investments instantly stagnate. Real world, a friend had I think two 493s and was all in, then one day his fresh motor was legislated out of favor, he sold in disgust, and went straight to vintage.
This happens every week in SCCA and at some point only fenders may exist — and that’s flat unacceptable to me.
Once we think we’ve mastered something, it’s over
https://ericwunrow.photoshelter.com/index
interesting
Look at this info
When F1000 was growing in 2017 we had
F1000 18 ENTRIES
FC 14 ENTRIES
FA 11 ENTRIES
AT THE 2017 INDY RUNOFFS, with almost 1000 total cars entered.
where are the F1000 cars now?? sitting in shops because put in FA, we had drivers from across the country were there.
We lived in the paddock for almost 3 weeks between testing and racing and ran both F1000 and P2 with the same car.'
(crazy would not recommend trying) ha-ha.
AS I posted early my car has been updated to FA , and I even built a backup spare 2nd FA motor, but due to health concern it is sitting.
BUT even if I qualified, I would not spend the money to go to the runoffs. I also still have the P2 kit that I won the Northeast Division Championship in 2017 but I would rather drive OW. (Northeast Champion in FF-FM-CSR-DSR-P2) 2nd in F1000 2016 Not afraid to spend money to do this but can't afford REAL FA. I race the runoffs at almost every MID-OHIO Runoffs in different classes, including OLDER FA CARS.
Last edited by david oleary; 09.17.23 at 2:01 PM.
I never thought the .016 should've been called an Atlantic. They should've named it CART Lights or something. Then maybe there wouldn't have been the clamor to put it in club racing. Nobody wanted or cared if old Indy Lights cars were homologated into club FA. (Think about THAT mess.)
I know it's heresy to mandate flat-bottoms for true FAs, but how much would that slow them down to the ballpark of F3s, PFMs, and FBs? "If we kneecap FAs, FA might be a competitive class!" Yeah I know how dumb that sounds.
Dale V.
Lake Effect Motorsports
FM
Spartan VP-2/Mazda
Scca
So here is a loaded question,
Do you think ANYONE of AUTHORITY with SCCA WILL READ any of these great comments and react to next year rules and classes to do anything about it OR are we just venting on this site?????
I am on board with integrating restrictored F1000 cars into FC. Mostly because I want one but can't afford FA engine costs.That and everyone in my area has an FC car so there are actually people to race with.
To me the answer is simple, move F1000 (in its original guise, no built engines) and FA to regional status as separate classes. Maybe it will just prolong their death but at least they might have a fighting chance and their future would be in the hands of the competitors, not a board that thinks they know what's best.
To those on the FSRAC, CRB and BOD that are reading this, it's not too late to unf***k F1000. Very few owners went with a built engine and I'm confident that those that did still have a stock engine and they can unload their built engine in P1 or P2.
This.
This.
And this.
I don't think this is the case anymore. If there are issues, it's easily solved with a simple change to the ECU rules. Not an insurmountable issue at all.
I'm certain there are several of them reading it but they won't react. Remember, you have to "write a letter" for anyone in the SCCA to do anything.
Mike is correct.
SCCA has a well-defined rules process. The CRB recommends rules changes to the BOD, which must approve them before inclusion in the GCR. Requests for rules changes reach the CRB via member input (the infamous 'write a letter' system), requests from National staff, and the CRB itself. Typically, the CRB first has the Formula and Sports Racer Advisory Committee review requests.
Postings on Facebook or discussion forums like Apexspeed simply do not trigger the process.
At the risk of repeating a cliché, submit a request via crbscca.com. That will bring it to the CRB's attention in a way that posting here will not. Be sure to address the equities involved, and who would have to modify their cars as a consequence.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
There is a third size engine option, 750 cc. Someone who is way more knowledgeable than me might be able to step in.
The 600 cc engine would be a match for FF but I don't think you can detune a 1000 cc to make a decent F2000 package.
A Hayabusa in stock configuration with a rev limiter might be a F1000 option to compete with the 016..
I understand that's the process (sometimes) but I was being facetious. I'm going to take a wild guess and say there weren't many letters asking for FX, or asking for F1000 to be killed, or probably lots of other examples that didn't start with a letter.
letters
Hi MIke
How many letters have all of us written when this rule was changed???
The only one that was considered was Jeremys begging for them to consider a build engine to try to help F1000s, well that just pushed most of the cars to be parked, the reason F1000 was growing was because of cost, so that didn't help!!!! SCCA was going to TRY TO SAVE FA at any cost to us!! I am a 45 year member and I have seen so many crazy decisions and nothing gets done. I have both motors stock and built, your right i would sell my DYNO ONLY FRESH KWS built motor at a lost and stay with a stock motor if there was a equal class to race in.
So why don't you guys go to the regions, ask for a CF1000 class with the original engines, build the class, and use the Road Atlanta race as your runoffs (or negotiate a run group with Tony at one of his late season events, or any other club that's at a venue you want to go to)?
Why does everything have to orbit around the SCCA? Those guys have to be just laughing at the loyalty shown despite what they do. Vote with your feet, and your wallet!
Sorry to be a realist, but these discussions needed to happen 25 years ago. IMO, the people involved in FA and F1000 then made poor decisions. Again, in IMO, F1000 should have been targeting the FC pace rather than the FA pace. I vividly remember reading an Apexspeed thread where it became apparent that the FA pace was to be the chosen direction. I was disappointed that day as I thought it was an opportunity missed.
One of the issues that is rarely discussed, is that FA and FC cars need real crew, either professional, or really serious competent volunteer. I know that the FC guys don't like it when I point that out, but there is a ton of work, most of it skilled, required to keep these cars running at high pace. That is why most of the FC cars being raced today are 4-5 seconds per lap off of their ultimate pace.
SCCA is not trying to kill formula classes, but merely content to let them die on their own. So energy and effort spent trying to fix the problems are pointless, based on the timeline required to get anything done in the SCCA process. Our formula classes are in a palliative state. All efforts should go into reducing costs, improving reliability, but mostly, finding the best groups to run each formula class, whether that be SCCA, FRP, vintage, or other non-SCCA groups.
Last edited by problemchild; 09.18.23 at 9:51 AM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
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