A horse amongst jockeys—my adventure, advice welcome

[Tube Jockey]

Ok, so I am a big guy… absolutely huge by formula vee standards(6’4” and 280 on a good day). I have taken the plunge into formula vee head first without checking the depth!
I currently am in the process of modifying a car to fit my gigantic frame and it has been quite the adventure so far. I am certainly not looking to be competitive, just looking to be able to safely complete my laps and have fun. Sure there are other classes of cars that may have been better suited to my overall frame but finances didn’t match the class nor did my interest. I want to do open wheel road course racing.

I am currently working on modifying one of two frames I have purchased. The mid section has been widened to accommodate my posterior, and the front hoop is going to be a bit higher so I can get out.
I am also in the process of reconfiguring the pedals. In the standard position everyone seems to use my feet are extremely dorsiflexed and have trouble using them. I am going to install a pedal box in a raised location (just above the front beam) and add a forward most roll structure to go over my feet (a more f1 style seating position). It’s a balance of ergonomics and being able to see.

just getting started so any input would be appreciated. And yes I already know I have no chance of being competitive… I am honestly just looking to have fun. If that is not an acceptable reason to race I shall certainly have to rethink this process.

I am just hoping to prove that a horse like myself can get into and race a little car. I am sure there might be some other big guys out there with the same question and with time I hope to be able to give a positive answer.

[Tube Jockey]

Currently the process is like making the Gurney bubble for my butt.

[BLS]

I applaud your efforts and wish you all the luck in the world. I have the height issue but not the weight.

Looks like you know what to do and are getting it done. I hope you have a ton of fun.

[Tube Jockey]

Certainly will be able to use all the luck I can get! Thank you!
I appreciate and welcome all advice and comments either here or PM. I am going to continue to post pictures as I make more progress. Currently working to get the frame squared away so I can work on the body before the weather gets too cold to use epoxy in the garage.

I was told the frame is a 1981 Zink Z18b. I picked it up as parts along with some body molds.

when I finally get this out on the track it will likely be a rather ugly franken-zink easily spotted by being dead last (hopefully not dead on the side of the track. Honestly, I am looking forward to meeting more folks at the track. The drivers I spoke with at limerock were all very friendly, welcoming, and a great resource for my start on this project.

[BorkRacing]

You need to get in touch with the designer and builder of your car. Stephen Lathrop. He posts on here often.
Also talk to ICP/Variloc for parts and ideas, he posts here, mainly jokes and great car setup ideas and does custom machining. Goes by R Pare.
I will think of more contacts

[Tube Jockey]

He has actually already reached out to me and provided some great insight. I am always looking for people’s brains to pick so any contacts are greatly appreciated!

[Purple Frog]

If Lathrop says its OK. Its OK. I would drive one of his designs through the gates of hell. Especially with his new halo configuration.

Maybe put a single port 1600 in the car... it sort of looks the same (especially if you never go to impound). (kidding, sort of...)

[DanW]

Hello Tube,

Contact Larry Bacon for advice on fit too. He is a long time FV racer and a big guy as well. He may be an excellent resource for advice and parts. Big guys can be competitive too. Larry is planning to attend the Runoffs at Indy this year. His handle is lbacon. You can send him a private message.

[pacratt]

PM sent your way.

Glenn

[jrh3]

If Lathrop says its OK. Its OK. I would drive one of his designs through the gates of hell. Especially with his new halo configuration.

Maybe put a single port 1600 in the car... it sort of looks the same (especially if you never go to impound). (kidding, sort of...)

I would enjoy seeing the halo design!

(100 lb weight penalty, 1600++cc sounds great)

[R. Pare]

The halo is nothing more than a mostly horizontal tube the runs from one side of the car ( upper side tube) forward and then curves up and over the drivers wrists to the other side. Steve added it in to the '94 FF/FC car as a means of further stiffening the cockpit area of the frame, and it is amazingly effective. A couple VD guys copied it in their FCs, and it transformed their cars as well. Not so important in an FV because of the zero-roll rear suspension, but certainly is helpful from the safety standpoint.

Steve or Brandon Dixon should still have pictures of the hoop in their files to show you what it looks like.

The only things I'm currently making for the FVs are the rear drums. The good German, etc, drums are getting hard to get, but still can break. Mine are pretty bullet proof.

I used to make replacement front spindles, but stopped when the local steel foundry went out of business 15 or so years ago. I could make more, but still need to find a foundry somewhere near to pour them at a reasonable price.

You will want to confer with any of the current front runners about adding a bolt through the hole on the inside of the left front spindle (stock spindles, not mine) to keep it from going wayward if it breaks - not fun losing a complete front corner at speed!

To help a little bit on car weight, make molds off of whatever you come up with for everything, then vacuum bag the new bodywork to reduce the dead-weight excess resin.

[problemchild]

I understand why you put the X-brace where you widened the chassis. But I would move it or reshape it so that it is not under your butt, raising you an inch in the car. Moving it, just several inches, or deforming the X, may provide 95% of the effect without raising the driver.

[Tube Jockey]

I initially was concerned about the x brace adding height and then decided that the space between the bracing at the floor pan would be filled once I fit a bead seat or poured foam seat. I figured no matter where the location was I’d be sitting over it anyway. I certainly do appreciate how I could have moved it and made a different lower profile choice in seating though.

[Tube Jockey]

Front of the car has been raised to make room for the pedals in a raised location. Tried multiple different seating positions to determine pedal placement including the original location but raised was the most comfortable for me.
This is the approximate position the pedals will be in.

[Tube Jockey]

It’s been some time. Car is coming along a little slower than planned, but it is coming along. Certainly not going to be the prettiest or fastest, but that’s what people say about me so why not my car too. Let’s be honest at 6’4” and 280 on a good day unless I get a waiver to drop an LS in this thing I am not gonna be competitive, but I sure as hell plan on having fun!

[Rick Kirchner]

Don't forget about Sports Toyotas someday. Those things are huge inside.

[Steve Davis]

...
You will want to confer with any of the current front runners about adding a bolt through the hole on the inside of the left front spindle (stock spindles, not mine) to keep it from going wayward if it breaks - not fun losing a complete front corner at speed!...

It is a LOT .. LOT easier and BETTER to simply install Mike Palermo's spindle spacers on the spindles. It makes the spindle about the strongest things in the entire front end. In over 20 years of running them, I have yet to bend a spindle or have one crack. You'd be astounded to see things that DID bend in some of the accidents I've had .. but the spindles were NOT one of them. I have seen the 'bolt/tethers' save a car from a crash - but it's better to SAVE the spindle from cracking or bending in the first place.

A few years back, there was a discussion on them on the original Formula Vee forum. Go to
http://formulavee.org/viewtopic.php?p=19549
and check out the last 4 or 5 posts there.
There is also a more recent in-depth discussion at
http://formulavee.org/viewtopic.php?p=25310

Steve, FV80
PS.. that is one heckuva project you've taken to get into a vee. I hope you have a great time in it when you get it on the track.

[jtaphorn]

dorsiflexed - Ah, that what you call it! I learn something every day.

I am 6"2" and my legs carry most of my length. I never knew the term for having to draw my toes back toward my shin to get off the throttle in my Reynard FC. Always a challenge. As I left foot brake, sometimes I have trouble slowing because I cant get fully off the throttle. I gotta do more stretching.

[housejoe]

It is a LOT .. LOT easier and BETTER to simple install Mike Palermo's spindle spacers on the spindles. It makes the spindle about the strongest things in the entire front end. In over 20 years of running them, I have yet to bend a spindle or have one crack. You'd be astounded to see things that DID bend in some of the accidents I've had .. but the spindles were NOT one of them. I have seen the 'bolt/tethers' save a car from a crash - but it's better to SAVE the spindle from cracking or bending in the first place.

A few years back, there was a discussion on them on the original Formula Vee forum. Go to
http://formulavee.org/viewtopic.php?p=19549
and check out the last 4 or 5 posts there.
There is also a more recent in-depth discussion at
http://formulavee.org/viewtopic.php?p=25310

Steve, FV80
PS.. that is one heckuva project you've taken to get into a vee. I hope you have a great time in it when you get it on the track.

Stevan, thanks a TON for sharing this. I remember reading about this when I first began my journey into FV, but somehow completely forgot that this existed..I guess the old “steel trap” ain’t what it used to be. I have spindle bolts for now, but I’ll be doing this after July Road Atlanta. Do you know if Palermo is still around? Perhaps I can just buy the set-up from him as it would save some time. Otherwise I just build them up with hardware from McMaster.. Thanks Again!!!

[Steve Davis]

Yep. Mike is still 'around' - he's in the process of moving from Colorado to Texas.. but he's not moving very quickly and I have no idea if he has sets on hand for shipping or not. I CAN tell you that buying them from him is WAY easier than fabricating them yourself. I made my own, but I'm not interested in putting that kind of time into making them for anyone else ...

He's on this forum - ID= Sharplikestump

Haven't seen a post from him lately, but you can PM him to ask.
Steve, FV80

OH.. and you mention 'doing this after Atlanta' .. if you have the kit in hand, it should only take about 15 minutes per side to install them (maybe add 5 minutes to read the instructions .. if there are any...). It just doesn't get any easier than that.

[E1pix]

Mike’s an old friend and we spoke a couple months ago. I was under the impression he’s fully moved to Texas.

I will add, though, that he typically fishes in Alaska for a few weeks this time of year.

[Steve Davis]

Mike’s an old friend and we spoke a couple months ago. I was under the impression he’s fully moved to Texas.

I will add, though, that he typically fishes in Alaska for a few weeks this time of year.

I talked to him, guess about 2 or 3 weeks ago and although they are LIVING in TX now, he was still wrestling with issues of moving his VEE SHOP stuff. As a long time Vee racer (or racer of ANY kind, I'm sure), I can sympathize with just the mere THOUGHT of moving everything I have accumulated over the years. I've already done it once about 12 years ago.. and I'm hoping I'll DIE before I have to do that again... and I'm sure that Mike has WAY more 'stuff' than I do.

Steve

[E1pix]

Thank You, Steve.

I just spoke with Mike on this — and on recommendations for a good engine builder. Our 1.9 Wasserboxer blew up Thursday and we’ve been stranded between Silverton and Durango since.

Know a good builder?

[DanW]

Thank You, Steve.

I just spoke with Mike on this — and on recommendations for a good engine builder. Our 1.9 Wasserboxer blew up Thursday and we’ve been stranded between Silverton and Durango since.

Know a good builder?

From one of my Colorado friends, some sources:

Animas Automotive
Durango, CO 970-259-2880

https://www.vcarshops.com/near/grand-junction-co/

Another resource, but in Denver. http://www.paintersgrinding.com/service.html

[housejoe]

Yep. Mike is still 'around' - he's in the process of moving from Colorado to Texas.. but he's not moving very quickly and I have no idea if he has sets on hand for shipping or not. I CAN tell you that buying them from him is WAY easier than fabricating them yourself. I made my own, but I'm not interested in putting that kind of time into making them for anyone else ...

He's on this forum - ID= Sharplikestump

Haven't seen a post from him lately, but you can PM him to ask.
Steve, FV80

OH.. and you mention 'doing this after Atlanta' .. if you have the kit in hand, it should only take about 15 minutes per side to install them (maybe add 5 minutes to read the instructions .. if there are any...). It just doesn't get any easier than that.

yep that was my thought, get the kits and slap ‘em on. Otherwise fabricating will have to wait till after RA. I have to do two cars worth. Not the best scenario, but at least I have the spindle bolts.

[E1pix]

From one of my Colorado friends, some sources:

Animas Automotive
Durango, CO 970-259-2880

https://www.vcarshops.com/near/grand-junction-co/

Another resource, but in Denver. http://www.paintersgrinding.com/service.html

Thank You very much, Dan!

I found a great engine today, albeit on Nantucket, and a shop to stuff ‘er in. Whew.

[Tube Jockey]

She’s not pretty, but she’s mine. Managed to fire up the car and take a lap around the neighborhood (brakes are non existent but even at that they were better than the alignment). Have started on some body work. Decided I’d go with aluminum anti intrusion panels. The original bodywork I have is not going to work with my new configuration. I’ll keep the nose and the tail (I have molds for them so it makes it easier). I am making the main body panels all one off, thinking I am going to do xps foam core with epoxy and glass. Also made a one off air scoop. Once I get everything looking the way I want I’ll eventually make molds of the new parts and try to do some vacuum bagging. For now back to sanding because I have to make up for my lack of glass skills with body filler… I hate sanding…

[Tube Jockey]

https://youtube.com/shorts/POrIE2TjFKI?feature=share

[Steve Davis]

Richard,
I just looked back at all of your posts and pictures.. particularly the 'drive around' from your garage. It looks to me like you're going to have a PROBLEM with roll bar/helmet clearance. Remember, you have TWO restraints to cover .. 2" from the top of the roll bar to the top of your helmet vertically .. and then .. the dreaded BROOMSTICK test. A broomstick placed between the top of the main roll bar and the top of the front roll over hoop, must NOT contact your helmet in the normally seated, belted in, position.

I'm sure you could 'scrunch down' more than you were in your video, but the top of your head was pretty close to the top of the roll bar .. and you weren't wearing a helmet. Most current helmets will add at least another 2" .. or even a bit more above the top of your head. AND.. remember that it will be YOUR HEAD in that helmet if you happen to have a roll over incident .. and what you do sitting belted in in the NORMAL position, won't be what you do if hanging UPSIDE DOWN while inverted.

WAY better to have too much clearance than too little.
Hope it all works out for you and you get the track time you seek ...safely

Steve, FV80

[Tube Jockey]

Steve,
thanks for looking out for me. Being the dork that I am I read the gcr a few times before I started the project (which is a great cure for insomnia for those so afflicted). I have been pretty paranoid about my personal safety given that I am a lot more human than should probably try to pile into one of these cars. Let’s just say I have a lot of hair… I have measured myself in the car and have at least 2 inches with my helmet on (pictures earlier in the thread) and certainly failed the broomstick test the first go but after redesign of the head rest all is a go!
With all seriousness, thank you for your concern! I still have the occasional nightmare about not fitting after all of this work. I also certainly appreciate the idea that when it comes to one’s melon it is probably best to have a greater margin of safety.

I look forward to getting out there, and if my measurements are off I’ll post pictures of me sobbing.

Keep the shiny side up, and the rubber side down

rick

[Tube Jockey]

Starting to try to make some one off body panels. If they work out well on the track I’ll pull some molds and try to make them lighter (I have the gear to try vacuum bagging). This process has made me appreciate the skilled worker even more! I someday hope to be considered at least an unskilled worker… right now I think I am hovering at hack. Overall my goal is to get some other big guys into little cars and show that a schmuck like myself can do it. I have seen plenty of beautiful cars in my life… this won’t be one of them but it will be mine. Maybe I’ll be able to start a beefcake series…

[S Lathrop]

Richard,

I have reached out to you through a private message on this sight, but you have not responded. Sorry but this is the only way I know to get your attention.

You have made such extensive modifications to the car that it is no longer in compliance with the design standard that I used when I had the 84 Citation FV homologated for competition in SCCCA events.

I have real concerns about the modifications you have made to the car. You need to get someone to do a structural analysis of the frame as you have modified it.

After that you need to go through the SCCA homologation process, before you race or even test the car.

[Tube Jockey]

I have worked through these modifications with an engineer. The GCR 9.2.2 says that formulas cars meeting the rules set forth in 9.4.5 do not need homologation certificates. The modifications that have been performed in part help to assure compliance with 9.4.5. Including addition of front impact attenuation structure.

I am certainly hoping that I have not misinterpreted the GCR and have no intention to make an unsafe car. If there are any glaring issues I am open to comments because safety is truly my first concern.

I am also sorry about lack of communication on my part. I saw we had a couple of PMs back and forth about a year ago, but I don’t have any recent messages.

last but not least, thank you for your concern with regard to my project.

Rick
(tried to PM you but your message quota has been met and it wouldn’t let me send this)

[Hardingfv32]

The GCR sections that you speak of really only concerns the roll hoop structures. You are free to modify the rest of the car as much as you wish. No need to submit to homologation. Also do not expect a complete design review from SCCA. They do not have such an engineering staff. They only look for general rule compliance. In your case you can do the roll hoop structure per the rules but still end up with something that looks questionable.

You lower frame rail jumps out as a major issue. Unless you completely replaced the lower frame rails with a much thicker wall, say .375" or bonded and revited on a very strong floor pan there is no reason that the lower frame is not going to sag/bend in a major incident. Those 45 deg offsets that you welded in are just begging ti straighten out. The lower frame rail is always in tension.

Brian
PM sent