Converting my Zink Z-10 to SuperVee

[Stan Clayton]

At the urging of some friends, and in anticipation of next year's 50th Anniversary of Formula SuperVee (which race in FA in SCCA Club Racing), I have decided to convert my 1975 Zink Z-10-based CSR to FSV. My car started out as a FF, but was converted to 1.8L water cooled SuperVee power 30 years ago to race in CSR, where it has been ever since. Here it is with the sports racer bodywork removed. I have since removed the engine for freshening, and the sidepod floors and side-mounted fuel cells, so that it once again looks like a formula car. I will add more photos as the conversion proceeds.

I wish to give a shout-out to Mike Edick and Carlo Raggio for their friendly nagging to get me to convert the car to join them in FSV; to Don Cruse for the offer to use his Zink Z-14 FSV bodywork molds (all 3 San Francisco Region racers), and to Steve Lathrop for his encouragement and offer of technical assistance. Thank you, gentlemen!

[Jnovak]

Very cool Stan. The 2nd car i ever built was a 1600 water cooled super Vee. It was great but i had to sell it after racing it 3 times with 3 wins and 3 lap records. A sad day as it was a rocket and so much fun to drive!

[killerken53]

Very neat, thanks for sharing!

Steve Lathrop had discussed how the Z10 FF and the Z11 AC FSV were essentially the same car, so it's neat to see the next step in creating a WC FSV out of a Z10. What will you call the new creation when it is done?

[Tom Fraelich]

Stan: I'm offering my encouragemnt for the resurrection of another Super Vee. As a participant in the 30th Anniversary race at Watkins Glen, I'd be thrilled to know of anyone's plans for a 50th. I'd lend whatever support I could.

Tom Fraelich
March 79V

[Stan Clayton]

Very neat, thanks for sharing!

Steve Lathrop had discussed how the Z10 FF and the Z11 AC FSV were essentially the same car, so it's neat to see the next step in creating a WC FSV out of a Z10. What will you call the new creation when it is done?

IIRC, the Z-10 and Z-11 are identical from the firewall forward. Only the engine bays differ...one to take water cooled engines, the other to take an AC VW. The Z-10 were designed for the FF's Kent engine, but the VW 4-cylinder engines are a drop-in upgrade. Steve said a couple of Z-10s were converted back in the day, and a few more later, but since the Z-14 was a better chassis, not many Z-10s made the conversion. Also, a few were converted to CSR, like mine. As to what to call it, I'll just stick with the Zink FSV name.

Here are some more photos and specs on one of the Z10-to-FSV cars: http://race-cars.com/carsold/other/1...69579942ss.htm

[S Lathrop]

Just for the history buffs, Stan's conversion is the second or maybe the third one. I think that one of the Z11 air cooled cars was converted to water cooled. And maybe a Z10 FF was converted as well. They guys who did those conversions were very happy with the results. What really turned the original water cooled cars upside down was the beginning of ground effects cars and the Z10 and Z14 were not capable of competing with the new ground effects FSVs, such as the March and Ralt F3 type cars.

[RussMcB]

Stan, keep us posted. This will be interesting to watch, and I hope it's fun and goes smoothly. It may be hectic but the fun and memories from the event should make it worthwhile. And maybe you'll end up with an extremely valuable historic/vintage race car. :-)

One thing I'm guessing you'll find is, you may be frustrated going from a wide, roomy sports racer (with all kinds of room to put things) to, "where am I supposed to put this?" :-)

[DanW]

Stan, keep us posted. This will be interesting to watch, and I hope it's fun and goes smoothly. It may be hectic but the fun and memories from the event should make it worthwhile. And maybe you'll end up with an extremely valuable historic/vintage race car. :-)

One thing I'm guessing you'll find is, you may be frustrated going from a wide, roomy sports racer (with all kinds of room to put things) to, "where am I supposed to put this?" :-)

A Zink Z10/11 is thankfully pretty roomy. Built for Americans of the usual size and girth. Thanks Steve!

[Garey Guzman]

At the urging of some friends, and in anticipation of next year's 50th Anniversary of Formula SuperVee ....
.... I have since removed the engine for freshening.....

I heard a brief bit about a 50th Anniversary event on FB but nothing since. Any details?

Who does engines for these things? I understand that Vintage allows up to 2L for air-cooled now?

[Stan Clayton]

I haven't heard of any specific events that have been either firmed up, or have reached the 'bring 20 cars and we'll give you a run group', but I know some folks are talking with events about a commemorative event out here on the west coast. I imagine (hope!) similar efforts will get underway in the NE and SE, of not more.

It strikes me that we first need to know how many and where FSVs are located, so I will start another thread to start a head count.

[S Lathrop]

I heard a brief bit about a 50th Anniversary event on FB but nothing since. Any details?

Who does engines for these things? I understand that Vintage allows up to 2L for air-cooled now?

I would say that an air cooled FSV with 2L motor would be a great Vintage car. With a 2L motor, you would not need to do much to the engine to have more power than we ever raced with. Given the low CG and weight of an air cooled engine, making one of those cars handle is not hard.

[Stan Clayton]

Patti and I are laid up with late-winter colds, but I managed to spend a few hours in the garage today working (slowly) on the Zink. With the engine out of the car I removed and stored away the last of the cooling system, fuel system, and chassis & engine bay wiring looms. Everything is 30-to-40+ years old, so it is being retained to guide me through building new looms and systems.

Steve Lathrop, can you advise me on radiator specs and placement? My Z-10 uses a small front-mounted water radiator, but I am confident that's not what the Z14 uses. Also, can you suggest a seat-back fuel cell?

Thanks, Stan

[Purple Frog]

Stan,
I an assuming you are going air cooled?
I was talking to Steve a while back, Today these air-cooled engines are a bit better than 40 years ago.
My bug is producing 196 on the dyno. And i'm running the fan and alternator. With no water or rads, I have to imagine the whole package is lighter than some old water cooled tractor motor.
Besides, like Steve said the CG is lower.
Whether they can last 30 minutes at redline, I can't say.
Heat is the issue. I have electric fans on large oil coolers.
Not sure just ram air can get enough flow through the cylinders if you build a "super" motor.
I'm running a cylinder head temp guage to tell me when i have had enough fun.
I'm imagining a 1200 lb. car with driver having almost 200 hp. Yee Haw!!!
Loved watching air cooled SuperVees at Road Atlanta for the Runoffs.
Of course it was November.... Brrrrr.
(those engines were designed for Bavaria. )

[DanW]

Patti and I are laid up with late-winter colds, but I managed to spend a few hours in the garage today working (slowly) on the Zink. With the engine out of the car I removed and stored away the last of the cooling system, fuel system, and chassis & engine bay wiring looms. Everything is 30-to-40+ years old, so it is being retained to guide me through building new looms and systems.

Steve Lathrop, can you advise me on radiator specs and placement? My Z-10 uses a small front-mounted water radiator, but I am confident that's not what the Z14 uses. Also, can you suggest a seat-back fuel cell?

Thanks, Stan

Stan, I have a drawing for a 6 gallon fuel cell that will fit behind the seat.

Regards,
Dan

[S Lathrop]

[QUOTE=Stan Clayton;579016]
Steve Lathrop, can you advise me on radiator specs and placement? My Z-10 uses a small front-mounted water radiator, but I am confident that's not what the Z14 uses. Also, can you suggest a seat-back fuel cell?

Thanks, Stan[/QUOT

The original forward facing radiators were very poor. The second version were placed parallel with the center line of the chassis and filled the space from the front of the side pod back to the fuel cells. Those worked well for a FF but they were at the limit. The next version and this should work for your car, was a VW radiator that were narrow enough to fit under the side pod but about 24 inches long. This was mounted along the out sides of the side pods. These radiators were more than a FF needed but the cost was well below what I could make. The last I checked, JC Whitney was selling a radiator very similar to what I used.

As for a fuel cell, Eagle has done several for me over the last several years. The one they make for the Z16 will work with a few changes.

[Stan Clayton]

Frog, I would love to convert it to AC FSV, but with 2 each Fords and VWs on hand I cannot justify it, so will stick with the water cooled plan.

Dan, I'll send you a PM with my email addy...please send me a copy of your cell. Where did you buy it?

Steve, thanks for the tips. I'll call Eagle to ask about the Z16 cell. I looked at ATL's cells, but to get one that'll clear the shifter rod I'd have to go down to 4 gal, which I am confident is too small.

[DanW]

Frog, I would love to convert it to AC FSV, but with 2 each Fords and VWs on hand I cannot justify it, so will stick with the water cooled plan.

Dan, I'll send you a PM with my email addy...please send me a copy of your cell. Where did you buy it?

Steve, thanks for the tips. I'll call Eagle to ask about the Z16 cell. I looked at ATL's cells, but to get one that'll clear the shifter rod I'd have to go down to 4 gal, which I am confident is too small.

Hello Stan,

Email sent with drawings. My shifter rod rubbed on the cell as well, so I added tool box padding to the side of the cell. I bought it from Fuel Safe in Portland.

Regards,
Dan

[Garey Guzman]

Hello Stan,

Email sent with drawings. My shifter rod rubbed on the cell as well, so I added tool box padding to the side of the cell. I bought it from Fuel Safe in Portland.

Regards,
Dan

Hi Dan,
Can you send me that drawing too? I have a project that will need a cell. I'm at gareyg on the G mail.

Thanks,
Garey

[RussMcB]

The radiator in the Ralt RT-5 FSV (and maybe Steve's Zinks) were a lot like this:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/afc-80107n/overview/

I think they must be used in some other type of racing, since Summit carries them.

[Charles Warner]

That is a VW Scirocco radiator. I may have one or two. Used to buy them in plastic from (wait for it) J.C. Whitney, for about $90.

[Stan Clayton]

That is a VW Scirocco radiator. I may have one or two. Used to buy them in plastic from (wait for it) J.C. Whitney, for about $90.

Still available from J.C. Whitney for as low as $65.Thanks!

[Stan Clayton]

After being laid up with the flu for nearly 2 weeks I got some time in on the Zink this afternoon. I am amazed at how little I got done in the 40 minutes I was out in the garage.

[RussMcB]

After being laid up with the flu for nearly 2 weeks I got some time in on the Zink this afternoon. I am amazed at how little I got done in the 40 minutes I was out in the garage.

We're not. :-)

You could at least take and post pictures for our entertainment.

[Stan Clayton]

Finished removing the old side-mounted fuel cells and cross-feed system, then completely removed the sidepod floors. It's starting to look like a formula car chassis again!

[S Lathrop]

Stan,
If you are taking this rebuild to a bare frame, I would recommend that you do the frame and belly pan modifications I have been doing on the 1994 Citations. Add a 1 inch wide, 18 gauge (.049), strips to the inside of the lower frame rails so that you have a 2 inch wide rivet surface around the inside of the lower frame rails. Then increase the belly pan to .080 6061 T6 aluminum or the equivalent.

The rivet holes should be 4 rows. The 2 rows in the lower frame rails should be 1.5 apart band the rivets spaced 1.5 inches apart in each row. The rows should be such that one row is located .75 inches further down than the other rivets. The end result is that you will have 2 rivets every .75 inches down the 4 rows.

And bond the belly pan to the frame with a structural adhesive such as Hysol 9460 or Scotch Weld.

When we first did this system, the frame we did it on increased the torsional rigidity 1000 ft. pounds per degree for the complete assembled car.

Also, do not extend the belly pan beyond the edges of the frame. I use .060 aluminum angle that I get at the Home supply stores. I rivet this to the side of the frame, with rivets every 2.5 inches and a silicone bond. I have had suituations where guys go off the track and catch the edge of the belly pan and really make a mess of things.

[Stan Clayton]

Thanks, Steve...those are terrific suggestions!

The pan is pretty beat up, so I was planning to replace it. I mic'd it at half a dozen places around the perimeter, where it ranged from .048" - .052".

While I was at it I decided to mic the cockpit side panels, which looked pretty thin. Sure enough they're .036" thick. Like the floor, they are not very stiff...nor very rules compliant. I'll replace them, too.

[Stan Clayton]

If you look carefully at the photo I posted up in #24 above, you can clearly see that the dry sump tank and hoses are still there, hanging on the far side of the chassis. This afternoon I drained the tank and removed the oil temp sender, then packed the kit away for later. I also removed the left side cockpit anti-intrusion panel. It is well below the legal minimum thickness, and in consideration of my tender pink hide, I will replace it with something more robust. Finally, staring at the gaping opening right about where my hips reside I am considering inserting a vertical mid span there to connect the upper and lower longerons. Thoughts?

[Purple Frog]

Stan,
What kind of sidepods will it have as a Super Vee?
Maybe you could get side impact protection from the side pods. Just saying.
That said; i don't see where adding a vertical tube would hurt.
What does Lathrop say?

[Stan Clayton]

Stan,
What kind of sidepods will it have as a Super Vee?
Maybe you could get side impact protection from the side pods. Just saying.
That said; i don't see where adding a vertical tube would hurt.
What does Lathrop say?

I presume the sidepods will be this Z-14 style. That's a '74 Z-10 with SuperVee engine, vice my otherwise identical '75 with the same engine.



I make it a habit to vacuum up pretty much any Z-10 photos I come across, and several years ago came across this one (among several) from 'Airhead', perhaps here on Apex. My chassis has sort of a semi-Warren Truss, which I plan to convert to a King-Post Truss to fill in that gaping hole. Airhead's chassis has more of a Howe- or Pratt-style truss, which is nice, but I don't need to go that far.

[Stan Clayton]

I am sorry to report that Hoopty and its conversion to a replica McLaren M4A SuperVee have come to a violent end. The northern California LNU Fire Complex, which has now grown to more than 300,000 acres, swept through the little valley we live in the middle of last Tuesday night, destroying most homes, including ours, which is a total loss. We got out with our dog and a handful of mementos, but our racing cars were destroyed, including Hoopty, which started life as a 1975 Zink Z-10 FF.

Here's a photo of Hoopty with its McLaren bodywork draped over it in final repose, and a photo of one of the surviving M4A cars for reference. hoopty's 1835cc VW SuperVee engine is a front left in the photo. RIP Hoopty

[10rmotor]

Oh **** Stan I am so sorry to hear this news. If there is anything I can do just hit me up Brother.

[reidhazelton]

I'm vary sorry, Stan. I can't even imagine. I am more happy though to hear your family and pupper got out.

My very best to you and your family.

[E1pix]

That makes my stomach and heart hurt. So sorry.

[teamwisconsin]

Awful news Stan. I’m glad you guys got out safely, but that is a terrible loss. My condolences.

[David Clubine]

That is heart breaking, so sorry to see this Stan. I am glad your family made it out safe.

[Jnovak]

Still available from J.C. Whitney for as low as $65.Thanks!

Those radiators are not worth buying!

[Steve Davis]

What a horrible reminder of just how much catastrophe these wild fires are causing. I had a significant fire in my shop back in the 80's, but it was nothing compared to this. So sorry, Stan. I hope you were well insured, but no amount of money can really replace what was lost.... irreplaceable stuff for sure... and this doesn't even consider the loss of your house/home. So sorry for you and all of your neighbors.

Best wishes for the best recovery possible under the circumstances.
Steve

[Chris Robson]

Stan,

I am so sorry for your loss. It is great to hear that you and your family (including pets) made it out safely, but it is heartbreaking to see the remains of your vehicles. Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.