Maybe someone can verify this:
Per the Dec prelims, the CRB rejected Steven Davis' "FV Spec Tire Requirement Date". I am going to assume he requested a delay to allow the use of Runoff tires at the start of the new season.
Brian
Maybe someone can verify this:
Per the Dec prelims, the CRB rejected Steven Davis' "FV Spec Tire Requirement Date". I am going to assume he requested a delay to allow the use of Runoff tires at the start of the new season.
Brian
Originally Posted by Hardingfv32
Shocking!!
THIS is what my letter was ...
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The currently posted rule regarding spec tires for FV says "as of Jan 1, 2019". This seems quite unreasonable for a rule that has languished for the last 3 years (and some 40 years before that), considering the LATE time of the notice. Many drivers have multiple sets of tires (the "old" (current)) ones on hand (not necessarily new). I propose that the CRB allow the use of the older tires for at least the first couple or 3 majors events in their respective Conferences. This should be for AT LEAST practice and qualifying sessions if not the races as well. To be fully as fair as possible, it would seem that the best option would be to require the new spec tire for the races only and let us run whatever we have left over for as long as we want in P & Q sessions. Then we could safely use up our stock and Hoosier could also sell off any existing stock that they might have at a discount.Please consider this and announce it as soon as possible.This is a follow up of my 'letter' of agenda item presented to the F/SR Committee at the Sonoma Runoffs.
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During the Sonoma CRB meeting, I was warmly greeted and assured that my request made perfect sense and that, since a similar program was implemented during the FF transition to their Spec Tire, it should be NO PROBLEM to get it done for FV too. Additionally, I was asked to SUBMIT my request via crbscca.com so it would get properly implemented into the SCCA Letter System. Now - It would SEEM that the new SCCA FV Committee and/or FSRAC did NOT see it that way. So, now most of us that went to the Runoffs (and many that didn't go) have many $$$ tied up in non-useable tires unless we "CHEAT" and use them in the few practice sessions that are available these days. What a great way to introduce such a "cost saving" meassure.
I fail to understand this stuff in Club Racing?
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
A few months back, I "was" thinking about combining vacation with racing and attending the first 2 majors in sunny Florida. Back to back weekends. I have a place to keep my equipment and it is located between Homestead and Sebring. But then I find out I can't get the new spec tires to mount, because it is too cold to ship them. I will have to get them in Florida and mounted there. I hate going to an event and have tires mounted when I should be doing practice.
BUT, now I wonder, how is Hoosier going to get those tires shipped to those events? It is January???
- I was hoping I could use my NEW set of non-spec tires for practice and qualifying. nope - not legal
- I could hope that it RAINS and then I could use my NEW rain tires. Being from the Northeast, I have had to only use rain tires 2xs in the past 5 years. (Why do we need a spec rain tire anyways?)
John Ferreira
FV 15
John,
Hoosier won't be shipping those tires to southern FL.. they HAUL them there. (Besides, not NEARLY as cold down this way as where you are.)
I plan to use my old tires at least for practice.. and maybe for the qualifying too (might want to compare the 2 tires). If someone wants to protest me .. let 'em.
I'm not sure the SPEC rain tire is not the exact same rain tire Hoosier's been making in recent years. I would HOPE that they would NOT want to put a HARDER compound on rain tires. (We can hope, anyway).
Steve, FV80
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
>>>That would be Indiana to Florida, by truck. Thus the truck would have to be heated.?????>>>Per the CRG, 2020 - we have a new spec rain tire. And I get to trash another set of NEW tires.
John Ferreira
FV 15
Glad I'm sticking with Formula Vee Challenge Cup (FVCC) for 2019 as the radials have their pos./ neg. , but we
don't have this kind of blatant B.S. from an organization that is so out of touch with it's members. I was considering
running a few Majors next year, but after this decision, the wind has been taken out the sails........
Mark
SB-1
John,
From my understanding, if you have bought rain tires in the last 4 years from Hoosier they are the same tires. I think the rule could have been written to say, "Only Hoosier rain tires can be used" as since Hoosier is the spec tire for FV, it would look bad if I won a race on my old Goodyear rains that I have been carrying around for 10 years... (Although I have gone through 2 pair of older Hoosier rains in that time - but the current Hoosier rain is a really good tire.)
As far as letting people run older tires, trying to set up a schedule to phase in the tire across the country would be impossible to enforce. But - to allow people to run any (Hoosier) tire in practice sessions until June 1 (as long as you run the Spec Tire in races) would seem reasonable.
We are working on a procedure in the NE to help phase them in, but the bottom, line is we all have to make the jump at some time. Actually trying to manage my tires contributed to my accident at Thompson, so I am ready for the spec tire.
ChrisZ
Mark,
If you were going to run Majors you would have to buy/borrow a set of tires anyway. Sometimes you bite your lip and move forward.
If we had a spec tire 20 years ago when we should have, there would be no FVCC, bit ironically it was the infighting that caused it to come about - sort of a self-fulfilling process. (Although the FVCC would not necessarily be the people I would blame....)
ChrisZ
If the old tires were allowed to be utilized because they still had life left, what would prevent somebody from going out and buying a new set right before each Major? In areas where it actually takes some amount of effort to qualify for the RunOffs, who's going to be okay with running the new spec tire against somebody on a new non-spec tire for points?
If you want to use up old tires, do so and be dq'd for non-compliant tires. If you aren't running for points it wouldn't matter at all. Just don't meddle in others' battles.
My understanding is the dealer network is empty. Of course if someone had bought new sets and held on to them - hence my statement that you would have to race on the spec tire. There might be a complaint about qualifying on the old tire, but I think the tire issue would resolve itself pretty quick.
for regionals we could write a rule allowing for non- compliant tires. Getting dq’d in the Scca majors could result in other fines and penalties and I would not risk it. Save them for practice days and driver schools.
chrisz
It is just amazing that a rule change to supposedly save money is actually going to up the cost to compete. When I was racing the tires I bought at the runoffs were what I used in the beginning of the season be it Florida or in the NE.
Stevan have you you driven on the new tire? Is it slower than the tire used previously? Do you think the new tire will actually last longer then the old tire? It will be interesting to see if it actually reduces cost or is it just another attempt at cost savings that actually won't pan out.
As for the in fighting that cause the creation of the CC I think that isn't correct. It was just basic math but then those with a fat check book don't need to participate in cost containment since it doesn't matter to them. Having driven in the CC a race each year for the last three years it is so much cheaper to race since not having to spend $1000 per race or maybe every two races really does add up and going back to the math thing you don't need to be the so called rocket scientist to realize how much less it will actually cost you to play. But if the new spec tire actually does cut cost then the big money guys will then spend more freely in other areas that are perceived to be able to buy you and advantage.
With the runoffs moving to VIR I think there will be a few CC competitors that will do some spec tire racing so they can go to the runoffs. If so it is a good thing they have been competing in the CC and saved all of that money so they can now blow it on a runoffs run.
Ed
When I got the Womer, it came with Goodyear Rain Tires. In really good condition! (but only 2)
I was SO hoping for rain this past season ….
John Ferreira
FV 15
I did test what I THINK is the new tire 2 years ago at Mid Ohio. I felt it was about 3 secs slower per lap at that track. That was in a Majors event with serious competition. I wanted to test it under REAL WORLD conditions and was willing to sacrifice that event for the test. As to whether is will LAST LONGER? I wasn't able to put enough laps on them to really be sure. Truly, I SERIOUSLY DOUBT that ANY spec tire can provide the goal (less than 0.5 sec per mile slower) for ANY longer than the standard C3000 R55's we have been running. I have run ..and WON several Majors races in the last 3 years using OLD rubber. For sure I have won 4 Majors events IN A ROW (WITH competition) using the exact SAME set of tires. I don't consider it likely that the new tire will last better than that .. AND it will be slower for sure.
I did order a set of the new Specs for Sebring .. assuming I go.... yesterday and was told that the price is basically THE SAME as before. Now, the price is $190/tire for both front and rear .. PLUS mounting @ $10/tire... PLUS $1 per tire disposal fee. I'm not sure that balancing is included, but I doubt it. SO... $201 x 4 = $804/set ..probably NOT balanced. Appalachian Tire has some in stock and available for the Florida January Majors races although precious few entries at this moment.
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
Ed,
This first part is just transfer of expenses. There were people who would buy new tires for the NARRC Runnoffs and those of us who scrapped by with old tires. I need to buy new tires in April while others used their previously bought tires. So not really a cost savings - just when you spend the money.
In the hundreds if not thousands of miles of testing (which I was not part of) the consensus was that the heat cycles went from a runnable 8 - 12 to over 20. Previously, most people were throwing away tires before they were worn out. Now we should be able to run to the cord. We will soon find out if all the work has paid off. With most NE race weekends being 4 sessions, to keep a "good" set of tires on a car was 2 1/2 sets per year or more. My plan for 2019 would be to buy 6 tires and rotate them. I should easily get 5 or 6 races out of them. The $800 "savings" (can't be counted as savings if you did not pay in the past....) could be used for other speed improvements or just another race weekend. Or more money for the wife to spend.....
Just like braking as late as you can without running off the road, racing is spending all the money you budget without running over. We can always try to mitigate how money affects racing, but we can never eliminate it.
Running in the FVCC every other year to bank money for a Runoffs effort sounds like a smart deal if you really save that money. Hopefully the spec tire accomplishes some of that.
ChrisZ
1) Varacins was able to set times equal to the current tire. I would imagine he did that by get more heat into the the tires with some hard driving. In general most testers found them only 1-2 sec slower on average. The spec tire drives (feels) just like the current tire.
2) Three Majors competitors used them at the beginning of the season on the W. Coast. They seemed to have lasted about twice as long as the current tire. These competitors were racing competitively for wins, so they never got more than two races from the current tires. They actually all did a race together using the Spec Tire. There was no deference in the way they raced or the normal race results they had experienced in the past.
Brian
Steve,
The tire you tested (and I did drive on) is not the same as what they settled on - there was more testing and changes done in 2018.
Yes the cost stayed the same (I was hoping in a drop with the contingency program going away).
On a regional level, depending on the car and the driver, people who tested the new tire either loved them, or though they were good. It is possible on some tracks they will be faster, but I would accept the target of .5 sec per mile slower. But they will be slower for everyone. I think we will be pleasantly surprised how fast they will be.
The life expectancy is to be proven - but the evidence is that it will be better.
As a spec tire advocate since the VROC in the mid 90's, I think this is 20 years overdue. Many other class in the SCCA has a spec tire, it is ironic that the most cost conscious class is the last to adopt one.
PS - even though most guys in the NE do not balance their tires (I do), the Hoosier rep here has always balanced my tires - if it is not included it should be.
ChrisZ
Mark,
If you were going to run Majors you would have to buy/borrow a set of tires anyway. Sometimes you bite your lip and move forward.
If we had a spec tire 20 years ago when we should have, there would be no FVCC, bit ironically it was the infighting that caused it to come about - sort of a self-fulfilling process. (Although the FVCC would not necessarily be the people I would blame....
ChrisZ
Chris,
We have plenty of tires as my son races FV in the Majors series. I'm more disappointment by the SCCA hierarchy than anything else and commend those that have worked hard to bring a "spec-tire" to the class as they've been doing all of the work with the best interests of FV in mind. I'll probably consider running the M-O Majors race borrowing a set from my son who'll run the full series this year.
Thanks!
Mark
If I was in charge I would have done it differently. I am guessing that some of the confusion might have been the legal beagles with the paperwork.....
Good luck to your son - I am thinking that this will be another big year for Runoff entries and VIR is on most people's bucket list.
ChrisZ
?? I balance my 'drums' …. pretty easy to do …. (well, as close as I can get them...)
oh ya, us ex-karters have all that simple stuff...
John Ferreira
FV 15
FV
1. #26284 (Club Racing Board ) FV Allow non-spec tire in Regional competition
In GCR section 9.1.1.C.3.D, correct wording as follows:
"The following tires are required: The following tires are required in all U.S. Majors Tour and Hoosier Super Tour events and the National Championship Runoffs:
Fronts:
Hoosier #43337 FVS 21.0 x 5.0 x 15
Rears Hoosier #43353 FVS 22.5 x 5.5 x 15
Rain tires are open for 2019.
Effective 1/1/2020, the following rain tire is required:
Hoosier #44266 22.5 x 5.0 x 15 Hoosier WET (rain)”
“SCCA Regional Races only - Competitors may run any Hoosier branded FV tire until 1/1/2020 at which time the above designated tires will be required.”
Reinventing the world, one wheel at a time.
Thanks for posting that Jeff. I have posted the same over on the FormulaVee.org FV forum. At least it's SOME relief for some racers. SEE! .. SCCA *DOES* listen .. sometimes. Despite the fact that this is a PRELIMINARY release, I would certainly expect it to become 'the law' when the official Tech Bulletin comes out in another couple of weeks (changes become official 3/1).
FYI.. this change is being carried out under the "Errors and Omissions, Competition Adjustments, Clarifications, and Classifications" section of the rules. I GUESS it is considered .... an "ERROR"? .. maybe a "CLARIFICATION"?
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
I guess the squeaky wheel sometimes does get the grease. Maybe it'll improve attendance at regionals in the first half of the year.SEE! .. SCCA *DOES* listen .. sometimes
Reinventing the world, one wheel at a time.
I have mixed feelings - on one side it helps the person who only races once or twice a year. They can stretch their tires for another year.
On the other hand, for me it means that I will have to race people later this year who might have stockpiled tires - so all the advantage of a spec tire really has no effect on the regional racer until 2020, when many will have to buy 2 sets of tires (slicks and rains)
They should have had the cut off date of late summer so everyone is on equal footing at end of year championship races....
Chris
They should have had the cut off as Jan. 1, 2019.
Halfway progress
Now that we're halfway through the year I'm wondering what everyone thinks of the new tires. How have they lasted? Better, worse or the same as the old tires? How is the drop off in performance if there is one? What are your overall thoughts?
Reinventing the world, one wheel at a time.
I believe that Stu Delaney had 18 heat cycles on his tires after Sunday's race at Mid-Ohio and he said
they were done by then. So I'm guessing, based on Stu's opinion that you can probably get 15-16 heat
cycles before they become totally uncompetitive.
Mark
Delaney was 5-6 sec off the pace. No wonder they are lasting so long.
My experience running at the front in 80 deg weather with a bad push... We used up a front tire in two sessions. The spec tire did not seem to hold up any better than the previous tire, at least when the car was out of balance.
Brian
I just watched the Super Tour events at Mid-Ohio, Road America, and Watkins Glen. Good racing with the same people at the front, middle, and back of the packs, which ultimately is the defining test for a spec tire. Also pleasantly surprised that you could not tell who had the disc brakes. I hope that continues, although it reinforces my belief that so much money was wasted.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
At the New Hampshire regional I set pole position while adding my 13th heat cycle to a set of spec tires and went no faster with brand new tires I scuffed in during the previous test day.
I do think that are slightly slower however but I really like the feel of them. More of a consistent slide then the grip, slide, grip I felt in long sweeping corners with the 55A tires.
They also hardly loose any rubber so it reduces the need to flip the tires on the rim.
I like them!
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