Looking for more info on the Prototipo SL. Can't seem to find the website or anything about this car other than this.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By_...h4ZTRZZmM/view
Prototipo Super Leggero
Looking for more info on the Prototipo SL. Can't seem to find the website or anything about this car other than this.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0By_...h4ZTRZZmM/view
Originally Posted by Formula2
Does it it even exist? The photo is clearly of an Audi...
OMG. Imagine my surprise when I saw the title on that post!
I'm the author of that document. I made that car up. It doesn't exist.
I want it to exist. I made up the imaginary brochure as a way to convince potential builders of the opportunity, hoping someone would build it. So far, everyone seems to want to build $80,000 P1 cars with an operational cost of nearly $300 per session. So I'm still waiting.
It could easily be done by buying a older DSR (say, for example, an first-gen Stohr), and removing the downforce, putting a 30mm restrictor in the engine, and putting on 13x6 wheels and FF tires.
I would like to see a whole bunch of these racing though. And that would require some new chassis.
This sort of car (albeit in Formula guise) has been discussed for many years here on apexspeed. FF with an MC engine.
See these threads: "Formula D", "Open Wheel Miata", "Phoenix FS FS600", "The cheapest practical SR2", "Entry Level Formula Car", and "FS1000 Scalable to FB", "P3". The cars have been called "FD", "Formula Super 600", and "FS1000".
Someone's gotta build this thing eventually--it just makes too much sense. Less than $50 operational cost per session--less than Formula First or FF.
Greg
Last edited by holmberg; 11.17.17 at 1:38 AM.
Cannot build at that price
As someone who has been doing this for about 25 years now one thing is for sure:
The concept you have is great but your cost estimates are probably off by 50-100%.
Now you as an individual could make one for close to your cost estimates but you could not do it as a sensible business venture.
As an individual you can afford to do a lot at "zero" labor rate. But do it as a business, were you have to pay for labor-yours or others and you will see it is very, very difficult to do and make any profit at all.
The answer is that there are a lot of clever people out there making race cars of all sorts and so far no one has been able to do this. It is not from lack of desire or interest but because when you do a really accurate business plan and cost based on a proper BOM and mfg, tooling, labor costs the answer is it isn't possible. If it was-people would be doing it.
I am sure the guys at Stohr, Carbir, etc have looked at the numbers and come to similar conclusions.
Don't get angry -especially at me--as your desire is in the right place. But until you actually try to do this everyone always underestimates what it costs to do a car. Even a very simple car.
Fs600
A number of car builders have looked carefully at a formula ford style car with a 600 mc engine........trying to find a way to have an entry level car one can buy for 30K or so. If open wheel racing is to survive at the grassroots level a less expensive, modern race car is essential.
No scca class is an issue to some people......but it would be legal in FS at scca regional races.....so I call it FS600.....or FormulaSuper600 if you want.
To keep the cost down, many of the parts must be shared between all builders (shocks, uprights, hubs, brakes, etc)....and some of those would need to be off the shelf production cars parts (cv joint/half shafts for sure). One could then build whatever one wanted around those parts.
Some of us are still working on the idea......and the North American Formula 1000 Championship will consider adding it to their schedule if it happens. I think you will see a prototype by spring 2019.
Jerry Hodges
JDR Race Cars
Brian (LMPDesigner), you are correct that construction cost is the thing stopping this concept at the moment.
As Jerry points out, one way to address construction costs is by having common parts being shared by constructors, similar to what Formula V does.
Also, a constructor would have to build a minimum of 10 cars to amortise the tooling costs to the point that it could be done for this price.
Steve Lathrop and Jay Novak say they could meet the target price if they had orders for 10 cars. Phoenix Racecars has said something similar. Apparantly JDR Racecars is also interested. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of anyone actually working on this concept at the moment.
The problem is that 10 buyers won't stand up and put down a deposit. If we could find those 10 people, I believe Jay and/or Steve would start work on it.
Unfortunately, with the way participation in SCCA formula racing is going, it seems unlikely that those 10 buyers will appear. Especially if there isn't an official national-level SCCA class for it.
Personally, not having a national-level class for it doesn't bother me. I would be happy to race in Formula S or ASR in regional races (I don't really care about the Run-offs), and those of us with these cars could self-score places from the official timing sheets. Eventually we could have a series like the the Formula First Tour (also a regional-only class), which is sponsored by Hoosier but isn't an official SCCA series. Perhaps the North American Formula 1000 Championship is the right organization for that.
I'm willing to put down my deposit. Are there 9 more people out there who will write a check?
Or maybe there's a school out there that would order 10 cars.
Greg
PS: I'd personally prefer a sports racer body for safety, but I'd take a formula body too.
Last edited by holmberg; 02.13.18 at 4:53 PM.
If this doesn't happen (and right now it looks like it won't), then I'll just buy a first-gen Stohr DSR, remove the downforce, restrict the engine, put on FF wheels/tires, and drive around the track in ASR by myself!
One could do the same thing with an F1000 car and drive around the track in Formula S.
Maybe eventually enough people do this, and we can create a de facto, self-organized regional class without actually building any new cars.
You may wonder, why would anyone do this to a nice Stohr? The answer is simple: operational costs 1/4 that of P2 or F1000.
Jerry, any updates on this project?
Greg
True costs
Greg,
Do me (and you) a favor. Please publish a full BOM of costs for all parts and labor to do your ~$30K car. I would be interested in seeing it. Send it to me privately if you don't want people to see it. I will give it an honest appraisal for you.
Not sure why you would do what you say to a used DSR
Not sure I understand the logic in what you suggest you would do to a first generation Stohr.
1.) Remove downforce. Why? Its there and isn't costing you anything in purchase price or running costs.
2.) Restrict engine. Why? Use a stock ~180 hp Gixxer engine. That will last just about forever, assuming you deal with keeping engine supplied with oil. And that is critical, whether engine is restricted or not.
3.) Switch to FF tires and wheels? Why? Will (possibly based on tire diameter) mess up suspension geometry. Cost will not be any less. Buy the hard compound Hoosier tires that fit the Stohr. FF tires will not add anything and will not cut costs at at. Beside, if you buy a used Stohr you have a ready set of wheels already. Why add costs?
For what you want buying a first gen Stohr sounds like a perfect solution. Car will be as fast or faster than your concept car, operating costs will be the same as a "real" estimate of operating costs. Your costs in your proposal are way, way low.
Why make a new car when you can buy a used Stohr that does everything you want? You can run it P2, ASR, track days, etc.
Steve Lathrop and I have been working on this concept for a semi spec Formula car for quite some time and I know that we are both very interested in pursuing this project! We have even written a draft set of rules for a semi spec car rules but neither of us have been able to get any interested investors. I think that most racers and potential racers have no idea of the costs involved in tooling up for something like this concept. Body tooling alone puts this out of reach for both Steve and I. A 10 car run with every car already sold with big deposits would cover the tooling costs for the body and the chassis fixtures.
So the above is the reality! I know that Steve and I would step up to the plate but we both doubt that the $$ are available.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
10 car run
Funny. I have usually used a 10 car run as the yardstick for the volume needed to break even on a car program. Seems to be a good number whether an SCCA racer or an LMP 1 car!
Still think a $30,000 retail sales price and 10 car build number is a really tight "do", means you have to design, tool, mfg, build, test, develop, market car, etc on $250,000-$275,000 dollars.
Just the bought in parts, brakes, engine, gearbox, (or combined bit), diff assembly, tires, wheels, fire system, dash, steering wheel, wire loom, ECU, rod ends and bearings, seat belts, mirrors, etc, etc takes a big bite out of budget.
I have a BOM with 578 line items in it that covers a low cost open wheel type formula car with a Hayabusa motor but Wildwood bits, Toyo tires, Kaz dampers, so nothing special and it comes to $33,000 dollars. So you have to really, really work hard to get to a $25,000-$28,000 car.
Can be done but in the end-is it worth your (anybodies) effort? A lot of man hours for not a lot of ROI.
Agree with Jay...
Jay--
One thing your are 100% right about is how little understanding the potential car customer has over the cost to design, tool and manufacture a race car. Tooling is a massive hit, even for the most basic of chassis and bodies. And of course everybody wants the fit and finish of an OEM street car!
My experience with a NASA Spec Sports Racer (Mfg confidential but everyone knows who it was) is that the customer base was absolutely clueless (Including the NASA personal) about the cost of doing a car. Couldn't understand why even the simplest of wishbones were $200-$250 a piece. Or a pushrod $75.00 (Round tube, 2 rod ends plus jam nuts, 2 vendor purchased weld bushes, 4 top hats-maybe-plus labor.) Adds up fast!
I'll grant you that I have no idea what it costs to build a purpose-built race car. I'm just repeating numbers I've heard from others.
Perhaps Steve, Jay, or Jerry could tell you what parts they would use and how they would reduce costs.
Greg
Need to start looking at real costs/BOMS
Greg,
Educating yourself is first step, which you seem earnest in doing-so good for you! Do a proper Bill of Materials and see what it adds up to. You will be very surprised.
I have simplified a current BOM I have but notice the number of parts needed. And try to work out the cost when you add all of this up. As I have said, if you haven't done it then you will be surprised at just how high the cost get. And this BOM is for a very, very simple car. And this car, adding all the parts has about 1000 parts to it.
Part # Item Description 1 Front Suspension 2 Front Upright Assembly 3 Upright - Machined 4 Stud - Wishbone To Upright 5 H14-8 - 1/2 K-Nut 6 Washer 1/2" x .688" 7 SHCS M12 x 70mm - UNBRAKO 8 Hub Assembly 9 Front Brake Assembly 10 Brake Hat 11 H14-5 - 5/16 K-Nut 12 AN960-516 -5/16 Washer 13 Washer 1/2" x .688" 14 Copper Crush Washer -3 15 Adaptor M/M -3 to M10 16 Caliper - Front LH & Rear RH 17 Caliper - Front RH & Rear LH 18 Brake Rotor 19 SHCS M12 x 70mm 20 Front Wheel Assembly 21 NASA Wheel 22 Toyo Tire - 235/40R17 PXRR 23 Wheel Nut - M14 24 FTWB Assembly 25 FTWB 26 Top Hat - 5/16 x 3/8 27 H14-5 - 5/16 K-Nut 28 AN960-516 -5/16 Washer 29 AN960-516L - 5/16 Washer Thin 30 Jam Nut 3/8-24 RH 31 Retaining Ring 32 NAS 1305-20 33 Spherical Bearing 34 Rod End 3/8-24 RH 35 FLWB LH Assembly 36 FLWB LH 37 Top Hat - 3/8 x 1/2 38 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 39 AN960-616 - 3/8 Washer 40 Jam Nut 1/2-20 RH 41 Retaining Ring 42 NAS 1306-20 43 PWB-10T Spherical Bearing 44 Rod End 1/2-20 RH 45 FLWB RH Assembly 46 FLWB RH 47 Top Hat - 3/8 x 1/2 48 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 49 AN960-616 - 3/8 Washer 50 Jam Nut 1/2-20 RH 51 Retaining Ring 52 NAS 1306-20 53 PWB-10T Spherical Bearing 54 Rod End 1/2-20 RH 55 Front Pushrod Assembly 56 Top Hat - 3/8 x 1/2 57 Front Pushrod 58 Top Hat - RLWB Clevis 59 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 60 AN960-616 - 3/8 Washer 61 AN960-616L - 3/8 Washer Thin 62 Jam Nut 1/2-20 RH 63 Jam Nut 1/2-20 LH 64 NAS 1306-20 65 NAS 1306-18 66 Rod End 1/2-20 RH 67 Rod End 1/2-20 LH 68 Front Trackrod Assembly 69 Trackrod 70 Top Hat - Tie Rod Outer 71 Top Hat - 5/16 x 3/8 72 H14-5 - 5/16 K-Nut 73 AN960-516L - 5/16 Washer Thin 74 Jam Nut 3/8-24 RH 75 Jam Nut 5/16-24 LH 76 NAS 1305-20 77 Rod End 3/8-24 RH 78 Rod End 5/16-24 LH 79 Front Camber Bracket Assembly 80 Front Steering Block 81 Camber Shim - Thick 82 Camber Shim - Thin 83 AN960-616L - 3/8 Washer Thin 84 Front Rocker Assembly 85 Front Rocker - V2 86 Rocker Hat - Front 87 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 88 AN960-616 - 3/8 Washer 89 Needle Bearing Liner 90 Needle Bearing 91 Thrust Washer 92 NAS 1305-28 93 Shim .003", Rocker 94 Shim .005", Rocker 95 Shim .010", Rocker 96 Front Damper Assembly 97 Top Hat - Frt Shock To Chassis 98 Top Hat - Rear Damper 99 Front Damper -2 Way Non-Remote 100 2.25" Spring Hardware - NP01 101 Front Spring 102 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 103 AN960-616 - 3/8 Washer 104 AN960-616L - 3/8 Washer Thin 105 NAS 1306-20 106 NAS 1306-18 107 Front Anti-Roll Bar Assembly 108 FARB 109 Droplink - FARB 110 Top Hat - Droplink To Rocker 111 Inner Mount - FARB 112 Outer Mount - FARB 113 Bushing Pair - FARB 114 H14-4 - 1/4 K-Nut 115 AN960-416L -1/4 Washer Thin 116 Jam Nut 5/16-24 LH 117 Jam Nut 1/4-28 RH 118 NAS 1304-12 119 NAS 1304-18 120 Rod End 5/16-24 LH 121 Rod End 1/4-28 RH 122 Controls & Ancillaries 123 Pedal Assembly 124 Dead Pedal 125 AN960-516 -5/16 Washer 126 Pedal Box 127 Brake Bias Adjuster 128 Brake Hydraulics 129 Brake Line - Front LH 130 Brake Line - Front RH 131 Brake Line - Front To Rear 132 Brake Line - Rear LH 133 Brake Line - Rear RH 134 Bracket - Reservoir Mount 135 AN960-416L -1/4 Washer Thin 136 -4 M/M Adaptor 137 Copper Crush Washer -3 138 Copper Crush Washer -4 139 -3 Banjo Bolt - Long 140 -3 Banjo Fitting - Single 141 -3 Banjo Fitting - Double 142 Hose -4 - Goodridge 143 Fitting -4 Straight 144 Reservoir - Dual Outlet 280cc 145 Master Cylinder 0.700" 146 Master Cylinder 0.750" 147 1/2" Pinch Hose Clamp 148 Clutch Hydraulics 149 Clutch Line - Front To Rear 150 Clutch Line - Slave Cyl Feed 151 Clutch Line - Slave Cyl Bleed 152 AN960-416L -1/4 Washer Thin 153 Jam Nut 3/8-24 RH 154 -4 M/M Adaptor 155 Copper Crush Washer -3 156 Copper Crush Washer -4 157 -3 Banjo Bolt - Long 158 AN832-03P -3 Bulkhead Plated 159 -3 Banjo Fitting - Single 160 Hose -4 - Goodridge 161 Fitting -4 Straight 162 Wilwood Remote Reservoir Kit 163 Master Cylinder 0.625" 164 1/2" Pinch Hose Clamp 165 Gear Lever Assembly 166 Bearing - Gear Lever 167 Bearing - Rod End - G'Shift Ca 168 Shift Cable 169 Gear Lever 170 Bracket - Shifter Mount 171 Rodend M6 Female 172 Washer Insert - M10 173 Steering Rack Assembly 174 Inner Mount - FARB 175 Outer Mount - FARB 176 Steering Rack 177 Steering Wheel Assembly 178 Steering Wheel 179 Fire Extinguisher Assembly 180 Mtg Brkt - Fire Bottle 181 Fire Extinguisher Kit 182 Seatbelts & Mountings 183 Shoulder Bolt 3/8-16, 1/2, 3/4 184 Steering Column Assembly 185 Steering Column/Dash Mount 186 Steering Column - Lower 187 Steering Column - Upper 188 Upper U-Joint - Modified 189 Steering Column Support 190 Rod-end 5/8-18 191 Circlip - Mounting Steering Co 192 Rear Suspension 193 Rear Upright Assembly 194 Upright - Machined 195 Stud - Wishbone To Upright 196 H14-8 - 1/2 K-Nut 197 Washer 1/2" x .688" 198 SHCS M12 x 70mm - UNBRAKO 199 Hub Assembly 200 Rear Brake Assembly 201 Brake Hat 202 H14-5 - 5/16 K-Nut 203 AN960-516 -5/16 Washer 204 Washer 1/2" x .688" 205 Copper Crush Washer -3 206 Adaptor M/M -3 to M10 207 Caliper - Front LH & Rear RH 208 Caliper - Front RH & Rear LH 209 Brake Rotor 210 SHCS M12 x 70mm 211 Rear Wheel Assembly 212 NASA Wheel 213 Toyo Tire - 235/40R17 PXRR 214 Wheel Nut - M14 215 RTWB Assembly 216 Spacer 217 Turnbuckle - Toe Link, Pushrod 218 Top Hat - 5/16 x 3/8 219 RTWB 220 H14-5 - 5/16 K-Nut 221 AN960-516L - 5/16 Washer Thin 222 Jam Nut 3/8-24 RH 223 Jam Nut 3/8-24 LH 224 Retaining Ring 225 NAS 1305-20 226 NAS 1305-14 227 Spherical Bearing 228 Rod End 3/8-24 RH 229 Rod End 3/8-24 LH 230 RLWB LH Assembly 231 RLWB LH 232 Top Hat - RLWB Clevis 233 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 234 AN960-616L - 3/8 Washer Thin 235 Jam Nut 1/2-20 RH 236 Retaining Ring 237 NAS 1306-16 Engine End 238 PWB-10T Spherical Bearing 239 Rod End 1/2-20 RH 240 RLWB RH Assembly 241 RLWB RH 242 Top Hat - RLWB Clevis 243 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 244 AN960-616L - 3/8 Washer Thin 245 Jam Nut 1/2-20 RH 246 Retaining Ring 247 NAS 1306-16 Engine End 248 PWB-10T Spherical Bearing 249 Rod End 1/2-20 RH 250 Rear Pushrod Assembly 251 Top Hat - 3/8 x 1/2 252 Top Hat - RLWB Clevis 253 Rear Pushrod 254 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 255 AN960-616 - 3/8 Washer 256 AN960-616L - 3/8 Washer Thin 257 Jam Nut 1/2-20 RH 258 Jam Nut 1/2-20 LH 259 NAS 1306-20 260 NAS 1306-16 Engine End 261 Rod End 1/2-20 RH 262 Rod End 1/2-20 LH 263 RTWB Mountings 264 RTWB Clevis 265 RLWB Mountings 266 RLWB Fwd Clevis 267 RLWB Rwd Clevis 268 Rear Camber Bracket Assembly 269 Camber Shim - Thick 270 Camber Shim - Thin 271 Rear Steering Block 272 AN960-616L - 3/8 Washer Thin 273 Rear Rocker Assembly 274 Rear Rocker Post 275 Rear Rocker 276 Rocker Post Cap 277 Rear Rocker Stud 278 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 279 Needle Bearing Liner 280 Needle Bearing 281 Thrust Washer 282 Shim .003", Rocker 283 Shim .005", Rocker 284 Shim .010", Rocker 285 Rear Damper Assembly 286 Rear Damper Clevis 287 Top Hat - Rear Damper 288 Rear Damper -2 Way Non-Remote 289 2.25" Spring Hardware - NP01 290 Rear Spring 291 H14-6 - 3/8 K-Nut 292 AN960-616L - 3/8 Washer Thin 293 NAS 1306-18 294 NAS 1306-16 Engine End 295 Chassis 296 Chassis Assembly 297 Chassis Welded Assembly 298 Seat 299 Skid 300 Close-Out Panel - Left 301 Close-Out Panel - Right 302 Close-Out Panel - Front 303 Close Out Panel - Top 304 Firewall 305 Seatback 306 Leg Guard Panel 307 Side Impact Panel LH 308 Front Impact Structure Assy 309 Front Tow Hook 310 Side Impact Panel RH 311 Headrest 312 Bracket - Nose Mount 313 AN960-516L - 5/16 Washer Thin 314 AN960-10L - 3/16 Washer Thin 315 10/32 Rivet Nut 316 Bodywork 317 Door LH Assembly 318 Door Striker Bracket LH 319 Door Skin LH 320 Window, LH 321 Latch Bracket LH - Door Side 322 Weld-Nut 10/32 323 Plastic Hinge 324 Door Latch Mechanism LH 325 Striker 326 Door RH Assembly 327 Door Striker Bracket RH 328 Door Skin RH 329 Window, RH 330 Latch Bracket RH - Door Side 331 Weld-Nut 10/32 332 Plastic Hinge 333 Door Latch Mechanism RH 334 Striker 335 Engine Airbox Assembly 336 Roof Air Scoop 337 Engine Intake Duct 338 2-9/16" 90 Deg Elbow 339 MAP/Temp Sensor - Bosch 340 Hose Clamp - 2" to 2-3/4" 341 Sidepod LH Assembly 342 LH Sidepod 343 Sidepod RH Assembly 344 RH Sidepod 345 Floor LH Assembly 346 Sidepod Floor 347 Fender Shield 348 Bodywork Mounting Bracket 349 AN960-10L - 3/16 Washer Thin 350 Tee Nut 10/32 351 214-16D CSK Camloc Receptacle 352 Floor RH Assembly 353 Sidepod Floor 354 Bodywork Mounting Bracket 355 Tee Nut 10/32 356 214-16D CSK Camloc Receptacle 357 Roof Assembly 358 Roof 359 Windshield 360 Weld-Nut 10/32 361 Keeper - Large Latch 362 Engine Cover Assembly 363 Engine Cover 364 Over-Centre Latch - Large 365 Camloc Retaining Washer 366 Camloc Grommet 367 Mirror Assembly 368 GP2/F3 Convex Mirror RH 369 GP2/F3 Convex Mirror LH 370 Floorstay Assembly 371 Cable Stay Bracket 1/4-1/4 372 Cable Stay 25.25" 373 Cable Stay Bracket 1/4-5/16 374 Cable Stay 22.25" 375 Tee Nut 1/4-20 376 Clevis 1/4 - Small -Cable Stay 377 Radiator Screen Assembly 378 Brake Duct Assembly 379 Front Fender LH Assembly 380 Front Fender LH 381 Camloc Retaining Washer 382 Camloc Grommet 383 Front Fender RH Assembly 384 Front Fender RH 385 Camloc Retaining Washer 386 Camloc Grommet 387 Rear Fender LH Assembly 388 Rear Fender LH 389 Tail Light - 9" 390 Rear Fender RH Assembly 391 Rear Fender RH 392 Exhaust Heat Shield 393 Tail Light - 9" 394 Front Splitter 395 Front Splitter Assembly 396 Front Splitter 397 Skid - Splitter Corner 398 Brass Screw #2 x 1/4" 399 Nose Assembly 400 Nose 401 Camloc Retaining Washer 402 Camloc Grommet 403 Rear Wing 404 Rear Wing Assembly 405 Rear Wing Mainplane 406 Rear Wing Pylon 407 Pylon Support - Rear Wing 408 RWEP - LH 409 RWEP - RH 410 AN960-416L -1/4 Washer Thin 411 Fuel System 412 Fuel Cell Assembly 413 Cap - Oil Tank 414 O-Ring Fuel Filler Cap 415 Fuel Tank Cover 416 Fuel Cell 417 Fuel Inlet Tube 418 Fuel Filler Assembly 419 Fuel Filler Block-Off 420 Fuel Cell Plate - Single Fill 421 AN960-10L - 3/16 Washer Thin 422 Re-Fueling Hose 1-1/2" ID 423 Fuel Line Assembly 424 Fuel Line - Cell To Pump 425 Fuel Line - Pump To Filter 426 Fuel Line - Filter To FPR 427 Fuel Line - FPR To Rail 428 Fuel Line - FPR To Cell 429 Ali - 65IC Str Push Fit 430 Valve - Non Return 431 Hose Clip 00 - 13-20mm 432 AN960-416L -1/4 Washer Thin 433 AN960-616L - 3/8 Washer Thin 434 Fuel Pump - Bosch 435 Filter - Bosch 10 Micron 436 Adaptor M/M M14 to -6 437 Dry Break - Female 438 Dry Break - Male 439 Adaptor M/M M18 to -6 440 Mount - Filter/Pump 044 441 Fuel Pressure Regulator 442 Adaptor M/M M12 to -6 Ally 443 O-ring Boss Male Union -6 Str 444 Copper Crush Washer M18 445 Oil System 446 Oil Cooler Assembly 447 Oil Swirl Tower Assembly 448 Cap - Oil Filler 449 O-Ring - Filler Cap 450 Oil Swirl Tower 451 Spacer - Swirl Pot 452 Catch Tank Bracket 453 AN960-416 - 1/4 Washer 454 O-Ring - Swirl Tower 455 Oil Breather Tank 456 Bracket - Oil Breather Tank 457 Oil Line Assembly 458 Oil Line - Gearbox To Pump In 459 Oil Line - Pump To Filter 460 Oil Line - Pump To Cooler 461 Oil Line - Cooler To Swirl Pot 462 Oil Line - PCV To Swirl Pot 463 Oil Line - Swirl To Catch Tank 464 Hose Clamp - 7/16" to 11/16" 465 Water System 466 Water Radiator Assembly 467 Radiator Mounting Tray 468 Radiator 469 Radiator Tie Down Strap 470 -3 Plug - Alu 471 Adaptor -3 M/M S/S 472 -3 Crush Washers 473 Radiator Fan 474 Water Pipe Assembly 475 Radiator Inlet Pipe 476 Radiator Outlet Pipe 477 Water Line - Rad/Head Bleed 478 Blue Hose 1.25" 479 Blue Hose 3/4" ID 480 SGT32-50/9 Jubilee Clip 481 Hose Clamp - 3/4" to 1-1/4" 482 Header Tank Assembly 483 Header Tank Bracket 484 Header Tank - Water 485 AN960-416L -1/4 Washer Thin 486 -3 Banjo Bolt - Long 487 -3 Banjo Fitting - Double 488 -3 Crush Washers 489 Push Connect Elbow 1/8NPT x1/4 490 Clear Tubing 1/4" 491 Hose Clamp - 2" to 2-3/4" 492 Radiator Cap 22-24lb - Small 493 Engine 494 Engine Assembly 495 Engine Assy - MZR 496 Engine Mount Assembly 497 Upper Engine Mount 498 Lower Engine Mount 499 AN960-516 -5/16 Washer 500 AN960-716 - 7/16 Washer 501 Hex Bolt 8.8 M10 x 1.5 x 75mm 502 Throttle Cable Assembly 503 Throttle Cable Bracket - TB 504 Throttle Cable Bracket - Pedal 505 Exhaust System 506 Bracket - Muffler Mount 507 Muffler Strap 508 Tail Pipe Assembly 509 Muffler - Welded Assembly 510 Welded Primary Assembly 511 Bracket - Tailpipe Stay 512 1-1/4" Loop Clamp 513 2-1/4" Loop Clamp 514 02 Sensor - Bosch 515 Muffler Retaining Spring 516 Extension Spring 2-1/4" S/S 517 Electrical System 518 Electronics Assembly 519 AN960-10L - 3/16 Washer Thin 520 ECU 521 AIM Dash XML2 522 AV Mount 10/32 M/M 523 Loom Assembly 524 Switch Panel 525 Spacer - Switch Panel Mount 526 Front Wiring Harness 527 Rear Wiring Harness 528 AN960-10L - 3/16 Washer Thin 529 1/4-28 Rivet Nut 530 AEM ECU Connector 531 Grommet 13/32" x 5/8" 532 Copper Crush Washer -3 533 AN832-03P -3 Bulkhead Plated 534 4-Way Female Block 535 Brake Light Switch 536 Rain Light Assembly 537 Master Switch Assembly 538 Master Switch w/Alt Protection 539 Battery Assembly 540 Cable - Battery to Chassis 541 Cable - Engine to Chassis 542 Cable - Battery to Switch 543 Cable - Switch To Starter 544 Cable - Starter To Alternator 545 AN960-10L - 3/16 Washer Thin 546 Battery - F2000 547 Battery Bracket 548 Rear Light Assembly 549 Wiper Assembly 550 Wiper Motor - Kit 551 Gearbox/Bellhousing 552 Gearbox Assembly 553 Bracket - Wheel Speed Sensor 554 Gearbox with Open Diff 555 Blanking Cap -12 556 Bellhousing Assembly 557 Nut - M10 x 1.5 'K' 558 Bellhousing 559 Stud - Upper Eng to B/Housing 560 H14-7 - 7/16 K-Nut 561 AN960-716L - 7/16 Washer Thin 562 NAS 1307-30 563 Driveshaft Assembly 564 Driveshaft & Inner Tripod 565 Wheel Speed Trigger 566 CV Joint - Outboard 567 Clutch Assembly 568 Flywheel 569 Clutch Assembly 570 Hydraulic Release Bearing 571 Bolt - Flywheel (M12x1.0) 572 Starter Assembly 573 Starter Motor - 2.0L MZR 574 Gearbox Catch Tank Assembly
Thanks for the abbreviated list Brian!
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
The wing and splitter greatly increase the cost to repair after a racing incident.
Also, as an entry-level learner's car, it's best to stick to mechanical grip.
This would make the car F1000 or P2 speeds. I'm looking for FF speeds. I've driven FF, I'm comfortable with that speed. F1000 is not a beginner's car, and it way beyond my driving abilities. I've watched their videos, and I'm man enough to admit that I'm not man enough to drive them!2.) Restrict engine. Why? Use a stock ~180 hp Gixxer engine. That will last just about forever, assuming you deal with keeping engine supplied with oil. And that is critical, whether engine is restricted or not.
Secondly, it would be much more reliable to use an under-stressed engine like a 1000cc MC to get the power for FF speeds (115 HP and 80 ft-lbs torque, I estimate), than an overstressed 600cc MC engine. The F1000 engines are competitive for about 27 hours. I think a 1000cc MC engine restricted to, let's say, 7500 RPM or perhaps equivalently with a 30.5mm inlet restrictor, could last perhaps 120 hours.
This greatly reduces costs compared to F1000 or P2.
Again, costs. I'd be looking for a 13x6 aluminum wheel for under $200. About 10 lbs. For example, these for $125. These a lot cheaper than the Jongbloed 13x8 and 13x10 wheels typically found on P2--I think at least $500 each. This also goes to repair costs. I can easily sell the big wheels.3.) Switch to FF tires and wheels? Why? Will (possibly based on tire diameter) mess up suspension geometry. Cost will not be any less. Buy the hard compound Hoosier tires that fit the Stohr. FF tires will not add anything and will not cut costs at at. Beside, if you buy a used Stohr you have a ready set of wheels already. Why add costs?
Tires: a set of American Racer Club Ford 20x6 tires in their R60 compound is $452 (not including shipping, tax, mounting) and would be competitive on a 950# car (with driver) for 20 heat cycles ($23/cycle). A set of Hoosier 20x7.5 and 22.5x9 is $1,006 and are competitive for 8 heat cycles ($126/cycle). That's $825 in savings per weekend in tires alone.
Together, these smaller wheels and tires save 46 lbs. That's significant for a 750 lb car. Plus it's unsprung and rotating weight.
Because I wouldn't do it just for myself. I want to demonstrate the concept and show the reduced costs, so I can convince others to do the same, and have someone to race with. And maybe even convince someone to build such cars by creating demand for the product.For what you want buying a first gen Stohr sounds like a perfect solution. Car will be as fast or faster than your concept car, operating costs will be the same as a "real" estimate of operating costs. Your costs in your proposal are way, way low.
Why make a new car when you can buy a used Stohr that does everything you want? You can run it P2, ASR, track days, etc.
I estimate costs for tires, engine, fuel, brake pads, gearbox, and chain at $120/hour for this type of car. F1000 is $419/hour, P2 is $496/hour.
Spreadsheet of operational costs
Fictional sales brochure for the car (ignore the photo, it's just a placeholder).
Greg
Last edited by holmberg; 12.13.19 at 5:23 PM. Reason: tire costs
I think your best bet to attract a group would be design it, publish the BOM and sources of supply, sell the bespoke parts as a kit and let everyone who’s interested in getting in on the cheap source the off the shelf parts from the BOM and do the labor of assembly themselves. Maybe you could find enough people then. Maybe the concept sells to high schools or colleges who have automotive minded kids who aren’t up for the various SAE competitions already in existence.
Overall you’re probably otherwise competing against SRF kind of and that’s going to be really hard to do.
F1000 sr
I appreciate all the hard work that went into your project but I wondering about the following items on your list.
495,551,552,554,558,567,568,569,571,572,573 all appear to be related to gearbox items. I thought the upside of MC powered cars was the gearbox is part of the engine package.
Best of luck with your project.
The BOM
The BOM is not for an MC powered car. The BOM has a proper gearbox as part of parts list.
F1000 sr
Sorry but I don’t understand all your comments are about a MC powered car. What’s the point of a bill of materials if it is not for this project?
That's a great idea. Palatov Motorsports in Oregon sold 19 kits to student engineers in Australia.
https://www.facebook.com/PalatovMotorsport/posts/new-post-on-d47-blog-wwwdpcarsnetd47/10154949262870925
(scroll down a little bit)
https://www.formulastudent.edu.au
That's a potential issue. On the surface, they might appear similar. However, I think the car can be differentiated in the marketplace.Overall you’re probably otherwise competing against SRF kind of and that’s going to be really hard to do.
- It's less expensive to buy. $50,000 for a new SRF3.
- It's less expensive to operate. $120/hour vs. $263. Less than half the cost in tires, engine, gearbox, fuel, brake pads.
- It's less expensive to fix. Replace upright, bearing, spindle, brake rotor, brake caliper for $500.
- It's faster than SRF3.
- It's lighter than SRF3. 950 lbs vs. 1560 lbs. with driver.
- There's an upgrade path to P2 or F1000.
- The body work will be much sexier than SRF3.
- Sequential gearbox with paddle shifter appeals to the video game generation.
Greg
Last edited by holmberg; 11.11.19 at 11:52 PM.
Lathrop and I are interested in doing this if we can get enough startup customers. let me or Steve know if you have serious interest. l will let steve know about this thread.
My email is jaynovak@comcast.net
Last edited by Jnovak; 11.11.19 at 11:37 PM.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
If the goal is to resurrect open wheel racing within the SCCA via some new entry level, budget car with good performance I wish you all luck. It's a noble goal. Perhaps with your histories with the club and with your love of the sport that is the goal. To do so, without losing your ass.
If the goal is to enjoy building something cool while it making good business sense doing so, I'd suggest you forget about trying to create something that would shoe-horn into a typical SCCA event. Think Humpy Wheeler and his success with the Legend cars. Or how many Ariel Atoms have been sold to track day enthusiasts?
I "raced" the Lake Elsinore Grand Prix this last weekend (race in quotes, because I wouldn't classify how I rode as racing) Point is, this started life as a motorcycle race. This was the 51st running of this race and there were almost as many ATV and UTV's as motorcycles. Those racing UTV's didn't even exist 15 years ago, and their popularity has soared. Polaris stock is up over 1000% in the last 10 years. There's a whole lot of motorsport enthusiasts out there spending a whole lot of money. Don't let the SCCA snapshot cloud your judgement.
You both are immensely talented and knowledgeable builder/engineers, I'm sure whatever you come up with will be a great vehicle/design. I hope it's also successful, however you two wish to define that for yourselves.
If the goal is to resurrect open wheel racing within the SCCA via some new entry level, budget car with good performance I wish you all luck. It's a noble goal. Perhaps with your histories with the club and with your love of the sport that is the goal. To do so, without losing your ass.
If the goal is to enjoy building something cool while it making good business sense doing so, I'd suggest you forget about trying to create something that would shoe-horn into a typical SCCA event. Think Humpy Wheeler and his success with the Legend cars. Or how many Ariel Atoms have been sold to track day enthusiasts?
I "raced" the Lake Elsinore Grand Prix this last weekend (race in quotes, because I wouldn't classify how I rode as racing
You both are immensely talented and knowledgeable builder/engineers, I'm sure whatever you come up with will be a great vehicle/design. I hope it's also successful, however you two wish to define that for yourselves.
Thanks Darryl
I like the idea of selling a bare bones kit without the mass produced bits and letting the customers get their own stock parts on the internet, or they can order the complete kit from us.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Where to race it?
As Steve, Jay and others know the problem is, as always, one of the chicken and egg.
Car concept is good. Lower purchase cost, lower running costs, partial build by customer (This was an option on the NASA NP01).
So what is issue? Where to race it. Car built to an SCCA class? Hopefully yes. If not then places to race go away. Maybe NASA? Super Unlimited? Not as an open wheeler.
And if car can run in an existing SCCA class it will have to be competitive and cheap to get any sales. Nobody will trade in their existing car for your new one if it is slower. Lower cost will not play a big part in that decision. Remember these people own their existing cars. So they would have to sell their existing car (to whom?) at a high enough cost to make buying a new car financially viable. Basically trying to convert existing car owners to a new product is not a feasible business plan. To small a customer base.
So need new customers. Now there may be a base of customers out there who want and can afford a lower priced Formula car. Issue is there are those type cars out there now. F500/600 are at or below your price point but turn FF lap times.
So begs question: What does your car concept offer to a customers that current F500/600 cars do not?
And would car be competitive in any particular SCCA class? No way of knowing right now as car is still an unknown.
You really need an defined place that car can race. And forget getting SCCA to do a new class for this car. Too many classes as is. Plus you would need 50+ committed entrants to start with before SCCA would even listen.
So none of this is a hit on the car concept. Just as always, the hurdles are non-race car specific.
1800 Ariel Atom's sold. How many have you seen on the street, how many have you seen at an SCCA event? The market outside of SCCA specific cars is pretty substantial.
The company that makes Legend cars is the largest race car producer in the world with over 5500 cars built, less than 1% of them are at SCCA events.
Build a car that fits nicely in BMod, CMod or various Hill climb classes that can be used at HPDE, open track type days and your market is even larger.
It doesn't have to be "fast" to sell or to get people to change classes. How many existing racers migrated from some faster car/class to run Spec Miata? How many were racing something else when they went to Spec Racer Renault / Ford / SRF3?
Don't underestimate what people are willing to spend or do when the competition is there.
A 30K car as a complete kit ready to assemble that checks all the right boxes. . . I'll buy chassis numbers 980 through 1000 and have an arrive and drive business in my retirement years.
Atom
Not answering question asked?
Where do you race this car? You give some "theoretical" places. But have you actually looked at your car concept relative to those options? The fact that there are a number of "potential" places to race your car is not the same thing at all to understanding (investigating) whether there is a demand for your type car in those venues.
Legends have a self contained series, a place for people to race. Legends created the demand for the car before they made the car.
That is what Radical did. Created a demand for their cars by creating a series for their cars. But they understood that you need a to have that in place before you sell your cars.
Specific places/events/Series.
I would have thought that would have been one of the first things done with regards to your business plan. You do have a business plan?
Daryl,
Good luck with all of this. You sound like a good guy with an honest desire. Unfortunately I don't see the necessary homework/groundwork done to make believe you have really thought this through in a sound, business like way. Maybe you have-but so far you cannot supply any market research, BOM's, business plans, etc.
Desire is nice but that is not enough to make a successful business of what you are after. Please understand I am just trying to convince you to do the due diligence necessary to make what you want to do a success. It takes a lot of work and investigation and research before you do your car. I have no desire to see it fail.
The demand is people's desire to compete. When you have numbers you race it any where you want to, there will always be clubs/organizations willing to rent track time to a healthy sized class.
I think you have me confused with the spreadsheet guy.
I don't need a business plan yet, or a BOM, or even market research. I'm not jumping in that pool until the first 979 complete kits have been sold.
Yes, it is a bootstrapping problem. I'll take a shot at it, but realize I'm a potential consumer, not a potential provider/manufacturer. You keep asking questions of people here who are potential consumers as if they were the potential provider--business plans, BOMs, etc. Those are questions for Jay, Steve, and Jerry, not for me, Daryl, or most of the people on ApexSpeed (consumers). You can't expect the consumers to come up the with business plan or the engineering documents. We buy the product, we don't build it.
New customers: yes. SCCA racers are an ageing population--mostly Boomers (currently 55 to 73, including me), but a few younger. Due to the hollowing out of the middle class starting around 1978, very few people in their 30's and 40's can afford to race now.
They're also not attracted to FV, FST, or SRF3. They want something sexy with modern technology that plays like a video game (paddle shifters). They also don't like F600 because it's too small, and, as much as we all know it's not true, they perceive that it's not a real car with a real suspension. Also, the tire costs in F600 are too high. F600 costs $295/hour to operate, while this car would be $120/hour.
So we must be careful to differentiate this car in their minds from FST, SRF3, and F600. I've listed some possible ways to do that in a post above.
These younger people put money into their street cars and go to track days. We can make a financial argument to them that this is more cost-effective. Safety is an important issue for these folks, and they are afraid of open wheels (SCCA did a survey, I'm told), so covered wheels are important.
Regarding SCCA class, yes, the SCCA will not create a new national class for it. This only matters if you care about the Majors and Run-offs. You can race it in Regionals in ASR or in formula body in FS, and self-score your own private class from the SCCA results. If there are enough cars, then the Region can declare a class and score it for you. My region, for example, already has 20 additional classes.
You can create a series similar to the Formula First Hoosier series back East. FST is a Regional-only class, so they declare their own series champions, and don't care about the Run-offs.
In addition, the North American F1000 organization has said they would happily add races for this class (in formula body, of course).
So, who really cares about a new SCCA National class? I certainly don't. I just want to compete at my local tracks.
Greg
Last edited by holmberg; 11.12.19 at 6:59 PM.
We are working on solutions to many issues that have been raised. For certain we will have a place to race!
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Jay, is this the same car you're talking about in the thread "Sneak Look at Jay Novak's 600cc F500", this Blade/Rakavon thing.
Or are you talking about something else here?
Can you provide any details about the car you're thinking about in this thread here?
Thanks,
Greg
This thread's car was a dream concept, see Post 3.
No that thread is about an update to our Blade F5-6 car.
Steve and I have agreed on a new set of rules for the cars. Our big issue is with trying to create a new class within the SCCA system, we both think that the SCCA will not allow a new OW semi spec class especially after their recent announcement about combining several winged classes into Fx. They have zero interest in creating another class for none winged OW cars. If there were multiple classes that could be combined then we would give it a try.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
That is a concern for some, but not for me. I would see this car going forward much like Formula First--not as a National class, but as a Regional class with a series sponsorship. A champion would be declared by the series organizer, and not via the Runoffs. In fact, it wouldn't even require a Regional class. The organizer can define the class, the cars run in FS or ASR, and series points scored from SCCA result sheets.
You seem to be saying that since there are not multiple classes that will be combined, you will not give it a try.If there were multiple classes that could be combined then we would give it a try.
---
By the way, I believe that covered wheels (i.e. sports racer) would be important for attracting new drivers from the tin-top set. I hear this consistently when I ask them why they don't race purpose-built cars.
Greg
Last edited by holmberg; 12.15.19 at 3:39 AM.
+This (“OH, you drive an OPEN WHEEL car now...(as though I volunteered for a suicide mission)”
Hi Jay,
To confirm - you are talking about progressing the car discussed in this thread "a new, non-winged near FF performance bike powered car"? I would be very interested in learning more about that.
-Mark
Mark Uhlmann
Vancouver, Canada
'12 Stohr WF1
New OW class concept
Just a heads up racers:
Steve Iathrop and I have decided to collaborate on our new OW 600 project!
Imo this is a big deal as it should reduce tooling and other costs required to build cars thus reducing the cost to build cars!
I will start a new post very soon!
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
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