FV disc brakes

[Hardingfv32]

I did not really find a price for a small automotive full floating bell.

Along your line of thought: I was thinking about machining the $100 cast hub/disc units. Machine the disc surface to accept a floating disc system. Do you think that would be too heavy a combination(heavier than stock)?

How much for the disc retention buttons? I saw some $18 units but they might have been titanium.

Steve… so it would be your opinion that a floating disc is required to reduce drag?

How much for the corner brake installations on a new FC? Is pad compound selection/availability going to be important.

This disc brake concept is much more complicate than I would have thought. Thanks for your insights.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

[QUOTE=R. Pare;545644]Why not look into designing a new drum system around a modern truck rear drum and shoe? With the over-the-counter availability of modern pad compounds .../QUOTE]

1) Modern drums do not accept wheel loads. Our wheels are currently mounted the the brake drum.

2) Speaking to the brake shoe suppliers… shoe compounds are completely different ball game. Disc pad compounding does not transfer across to shoe compounds. There is virtually no development being done on high performance drum brake shoe compounding.

3) From a business perspective what would it take to get you involved in making hubs for a FV disc brake conversion?

Brian

[R. Pare]

The drums would be a new design, with the only differences being the new dimensions necessary for fitting the shoes correctly. You might have to modify the backing plates as well to accommodate the truck hydraulic cylinder since the VW one most likely would not be compatible.

Just how "high performance" do the pads need to be? Remember, these are being used on a 3900 to 4500 pound truck.

Hubs - yes, I can ( probably ) do them. Need a design and someone to commit to the first sales - 50 or more, most likely, depending on whether we can do them from billet or need to go to a casting - up front pattern costs can run a few thousand to get foundry-ready.

The absolute need for floating rotors depends a lot on how much the spindle flexes, and I suspect that the VW spindle flexes a lot.

[BLS]

"The absolute need for floating rotors depends a lot on how much the spindle flexes, and I suspect that the VW spindle flexes a lot."

Don't forget the use of spindle stiffeners as they tame that a bit I believe.

Also, I think the FST guys do not have floating rotors and have no issues. Ball joint beam of course so the spindle is a bit stronger.

[problemchild]

Excuse me for my ignorance, but what problem is being solved by this rule proposal.
I have had a dozen brake drums for sale for years and not an inquiry. Brake shoes are available from the corner auto store or online in a few days. I have a tall stack of backing plates on hand. I thought all the wheel cylinders and hardware were available dirt cheap.
If not supply, what is the problem?

[Daryl DeArman]

If not supply, what is the problem?

Perception. "Archaicness". Reduction of things requiring fussing/fiddling.

[S Lathrop]

Greg's question about "what problem are we really trying to fix" may deserve a lot more consideration. I am inclined to believe that FV ain't broke so maybe we should leave it alone. The fix may be more damaging than leaving good enough alone.

Now, if competitors collectively decide that they want disk brakes, we can discuss design ideas.

Brian; I have never used "disk retention buttons". I machine dogs into the brake hats and machine the rotors to interlock with those with those dogs. To retain the rotor, I use #10 screws and flat washers. I think that using a spiral lock ring in a grove cut in the brake hat will work just as well and be a lot cheaper than drilling and tapping 12 holes. One advantage of driving the rotor as I do is that after a break in period, the wear on the brake hat is almost non existent. The drive lugs on the brake hat wear just enough so that the rotor is contacted evenly between all the lugs. After that the ware is minimal and the hat lasts much longer than the rotor. You would be amazed how fast a good CNC mill can do 12 dogs in a brake hat. Another side effect of driving the disk as I do is that we have never had an issue with disk cracking. Using rigid drive lugs that is not necessarily the case.

The cost of doing rotors this way is very inexpensive. At ICP we have the rotors cut from cast iron billets The blanks are less than $40 each. Machining beyond that point is not expensive either.

Bottom line is that things don't have to be expensive.

[ajpastore]

Greg's question about "what problem are we really trying to fix" may deserve a lot more consideration. I am inclined to believe that FV ain't broke so maybe we should leave it alone. The fix may be more damaging than leaving good enough alone.
.

It's mostly an assumed lack of performance from potential racers. Of course, those that have raced with drum brakes when properly set up know that it is not an issue.
Greg, it may have been a while since you tried to sell a new racer on Formula Vee, but those of us still racing Vees and making great efforts to get people interested in racing with us, are constantly having to convince people that there is nothing wrong with the technology. It's kind of funny actually that the younger the potential racer, often the less they worry about it. The technology is so outdated, they don't even know why it shouldn't work as good as a disc setup. But it's the older ones, the ones that actually have the money and time to go racing, that have been told all their life that disc brakes are better than drum brakes. They are the ones that find it hard to believe we have no problems slowing down our cars. How many potential racers are turned off by drum brakes I don't know. But for every time I had to do the song and dance of explaining why it doesn't matter, there may be 10 others that talked themselves out of it before even bothering to ask.
There is also the maintenance issue. You can't deny it is time consuming to properly setup drum brakes. And, as was stated earlier in this thread, if you think adjusting your brakes is all there is to making them work well, you are leaving something on the table. Do you think that's a skill anybody really wants to acquire just to go racing? Do you think it's worth throwing away a weekend or more for someone that didn't bother to ask how to setup their brakes? If there was a way we could solve that, don't you think it might be worth looking into to see if we could deliver further on the promise of "simple maintenance"?
Those are really, in my mind, the main reasons for investigating a change.
That said, I personally wouldn't want to change anything unless it's done very well, with a look to the future of the class and not just appeasing the ones already hooked. To me done "very well" means, safe, no performance loss, and about the cost of a set of tires!
I think this is a good discussion about some possible solutions that will help everyone make an informed opinion.

AP

[Hardingfv32]

A statement was made about the front spindles flexing in regard to disc caliper pad knock-back. Do you think that this flex would present itself as uneven wear… inside vs outside of the shoe? Cannot say that I have ever seen brake shoes with that wear problem.

Brian

[problemchild]

Greg, it may have been a while since you tried to sell a new racer on Formula Vee,

When I started in FV in 1979, as a teenager, they were archaic, slow, and funny looking. I chose the class for one reason. Low cost!
As I got more involved, the quality of competition became a secondary draw. Nothing has changed.

As I became involved, I immediately identified tires as the crippling problem. I was part of a group that brought spec radial tires to Ontario in 1980, and as I began racing more in the US, it became my mission to bring affordable tires to SCCA competition. It took 35 years !!!!!!! Unfortunately the selected tire will not be a bi-annual expense and will still be a consumable, but it has only been 35 years.

I still help FV racers and talk to potential new racers (my website gets 80,000 hits per year). To call them FV customers, would be a misnomer, as I lose far more than I make. I hammer them with "low-cost" and encourage more entries and less technologies. Fortunately, I am doing well enough to put my ideals ahead of my bank account. The Challenge Cup, in that format, has made FV the lowest cost SCCA formula class again, and I have done my best to promote and recruit to that.

IMO, FV needs to control costs even more and continue the almost-60 year tradition of attracting people with low cost. Much of the decline in the class is due to people forgetting that. The class has never recovered from the mistakes made in the 90s.

I will repeat, that if you cannot service and adjust a drum brake system on a FV, then you should not be "hands on" with any race car. It is no trickier or more difficult than setting preload on a front anti-roll bar, setting up link pins, adjusting valves, points, or timing, setting camber, droop, and toes, etc. Perhaps torquing wheels and setting tire pressures is easier.

It all seems like a waste of energy that could be better spent, but if you guys can solve your problem with such a plan, go for it.
Cheers!

[S Lathrop]

A statement was made about the front spindles flexing in regard to disc caliper pad knock-back. Do you think that this flex would present itself as uneven wear… inside vs outside of the shoe? Cannot say that I have ever seen brake shoes with that wear problem.

Brian

More likely it is the drum flexing and expanding more on the inside that the outside so the braking surface tapers outward to the inside.

[R. Pare]

A statement was made about the front spindles flexing in regard to disc caliper pad knock-back. Do you think that this flex would present itself as uneven wear… inside vs outside of the shoe? Cannot say that I have ever seen brake shoes with that wear problem.

Brian

With drums, the shoes very easily adjust themselves to the slight relative tipping of the surface.

With disks, as the spindle flexes, it pushes against one of the pads, pushing it back into it's bore - the next time you hit the brakes, that piston has to travel more before contacting the rotor. On top of that, when a caliper is pressurised, the inboard, mounted half stays where it is, but the outer half flexes outwards, and the rotor flexes sideways with it. If the caliper is mounted in the 3 o'clock position, the rotor actually twists relative to the pad faces. When the pedal is released, both the rotor and the caliper outer half move back inwards. If the rotor is not free to float, it will press against the inner pad, and unless the pullback of the piston (via the seal displacement) isn't greater than the rotor flex distance, the rotor stays bearing against the pad face, causing drag.

[Stumpthumper]

For those of us not in the know, how do the proposed specs differ from the VW conversion kits that are already out there for street, sandrails, etc. With the talk about designing something new, is that mainly to keep everything mounted inside the rim, or is it because nothing out there will work within the specs. Just curious.

[Matt Clark]

For those of us not in the know, how do the proposed specs differ from the VW conversion kits that are already out there for street, sandrails, etc. With the talk about designing something new, is that mainly to keep everything mounted inside the rim, or is it because nothing out there will work within the specs. Just curious.

a lot of them do alter track width, or are MUCH more powerful systems with more pistons, crazy expensive, or are plain made from questionable (Chinese) material. in the case of the FVCC setup, there are a few things we are planning ahead for too.

[Daryl DeArman]

When I started in FV in 1979, as a teenager, they were archaic, slow, and funny looking. I chose the class for one reason. Low cost!
As I got more involved, the quality of competition became a secondary draw. Nothing has changed.

Appreciate all the effort you've made and continue to make.

Being mindful of "low-cost" and having been involved in the sport for a very long time, I'm certain you realize that initial cost for lots of bits and pieces pale in comparison to those items that are highly consumable, such as tire$. If you had to purchase new wheels to utilize a different low cost tire, there was a larger initial investment and the costs were soon recovered in tire savings.

Changing to disc brakes can be an initial hit, but how long before there is a savings for those running the best drum set up?

[Hardingfv32]

in the case of the FVCC setup, there are a few things we are planning ahead for too.

Like what? The more possible issues we know about the better choices we can make.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

IMO, FV needs to control costs even more...

As illustrated by the 'cost conscious' CC disc brake conversion study/project… 'current' FV competitors want a brake system that requires less maintenance when run at high competition levels. All of your statements about shoe availability and adjustment do not apply to cars that are competing for a win.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

For those of us not in the know, how do the proposed specs differ from the VW conversion kits that are already out there for street, sandrails, etc. With the talk about designing something new, is that mainly to keep everything mounted inside the rim, or is it because nothing out there will work within the specs. Just curious.

If you are racing mid pack or below then some of the retail conversions might be acceptable. If you are racing for the win… then you need something much more specialized for high speed road racing. Being competitive requires much more attention to details with every aspect of the car.

We should be looking for a disc system that cannot be improved with further modification or labor. A system that puts all competitors on equal footing relative to the installed brake system… without a lot of maintenance.

Brian

[problemchild]

Appreciate all the effort you've made and continue to make.

Being mindful of "low-cost" and having been involved in the sport for a very long time, I'm certain you realize that initial cost for lots of bits and pieces pale in comparison to those items that are highly consumable, such as tire$. If you had to purchase new wheels to utilize a different low cost tire, there was a larger initial investment and the costs were soon recovered in tire savings.

Changing to disc brakes can be an initial hit, but how long before there is a savings for those running the best drum set up?

Tires was my passion. Stuff like this is just window dressing that will have little impact, but waste all kinds of time for many people. Requiring the use of cheap brake shoes could have some impact but apparently is too simple a solution. Simply put, if a low budget guy walks the paddock, he will likely end up considering several classes ..... SM, SRF, F500, CF, FV, etc. That he will look past all the other archaic parts, and choose FV because it has 70s discs instead of 50s drums, is just misguided thinking. People that insist on disc brakes, will be drawn to wide tires, a-arm suspensions, racing transmissions, etc. Those that will be drawn to FV, will be drawn by the low-cost, charm of the cars, passion of the racers, etc ...... Just as people are playing vinyl records on turn-tables, and returning to flip phones, some people appreciate simplicity and charm. I just think the class should target these people rather than trying to compete with technology.

[BLS]

Greg, as proposed in the original statement from SCCA, it is an option. You would be able to keep the drums and run cheap shoes if that is what you prefer.

If you would prefer discs, that is an option.

I personally believe that discs will be a performance advantage, for many competitors, provided they are correctly designed.

While discs will not be error free or perfect, I've heard and read stories over and over where front running national champion competitors have suffered from front brake issues. Those are people that have an understanding of how, and do spend the time to get it perfect. Not every competitor has that skill set or the time to diagnose and solve the issues that come up. The VW beetle drum brakes were not even a good design when they were new, that is a given. They were just cheap.

I have no idea if it will help attract new blood to the class. Since you can keep the drums, I don't see why it chases anyone off.

[Matt Clark]

Like what? The more possible issues we know about the better choices we can make.

Brian

unfortunately, I cannot get into all the specifics.... you will have to ask Ray, who I think is bringing parts to the Runoffs for viewing. some things are simply a work in progress, some things are just things we are working towards.
everything is being done for a reason, and the reason is to make it more affordable & attractive for current & future racers. this year alone we have put 3 very young drivers in our cars (that plan on running more with FVCC), and have picked up some other new, younger drivers. these type of things are literally what is drawing them & their families towards FV.

[problemchild]

While discs will not be error free or perfect, I've heard and read stories over and over where front running national champion competitors have suffered from front brake issues. Those are people that have an understanding of how, and do spend the time to get it perfect. Not every competitor has that skill set or the time to diagnose and solve the issues that come up.

I hope you are kidding. Like any brake system is going to be perfect on a race car and that good FV racers never have issues with engines, transmissions, tires, wheels, axles, electronics, wiring, etc. It is called racing. On our FFs, we are constantly moving $110/end pads around to manage wear and drag, replacing every 2 to 3 weekends. On cars without floating discs, run-out is a constant issue.The maintenance on a FF brakes is different, but not much difference in time spent. The cost is much more, even than the stupid expensive shoes that some FV racers are using.

The premise of optional equal performance brake components is great but the reality is that one will always be better. Unless you get SCCA Inc to spec, supply, and control very specific components, brake disc system tuning and development will occur Can you say "Monster Paddies"?. Are you going to keep the disc systems inferior or let the drum systems become inferior? Who will decide that and when?

[BLS]

"Like any brake system is going to be perfect on a race car.."

Which is why I said "While discs will not be error free or perfect..."

"The premise of optional equal performance brake components is great but the reality is that one will always be better"

As I acknowledged with "I personally believe that discs will be a performance advantage..."


My personal opinion is the front drums require far more effort to make and keep working properly and optimally than is generally acknowledged. Will discs require effort? Of course. Will it escalate into something more costly? Quite possible. That will depend upon the rule set which is yet to be determined.

[Hardingfv32]

Trying to learn something…..

When speaking of drag with the FF etc. disc systems… how is this measured or observed?

If you see the drag when jacked off the ground in the paddock how can you be certain that knock-back might not be resolving the issue on the track?

Have people done coast down tests to verify what is happening?

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

As I acknowledged with "I personally believe that discs will be a performance advantage..."

I think this statement should be change from 'advantage' to 'improvement'. The average competitor is going to have a brake system that is more on par with front running competitor brake performance. Current front runners are not going to see much if any performance gain. They WILL see reduced maintenance.

Brian

[R. Pare]

Trying to learn something…..

When speaking of drag with the FF etc. disc systems… how is this measured or observed?

Brian

Quite often you can measure initial acceleration off of a corner.

Some people have seen it when just pushing the car around the pits.

[grapefarmeral]

I believe we are the only Vees in the WORLD still using drum brakes, so most of the problems raised here must have been addressed...

[tgaluardi]

I've had my car at car show and have made presentations at high schools and middle schools. I have never had anyone ask about the drum brakes. The questions I get are: "Who drives it?" "How fast does it go?" "Why doesn't it have a speedometer?" "Did you ever crash?"
And these are from young people. No mention of skinny tires or drum brakes!

[Hardingfv32]

I believe we are the only Vees in the WORLD still using drum brakes, so most of the problems raised here must have been addressed...

Yes… they were addressed by going to a balljoint beam and reseting the track with no concern for backwards compatibility. Those are not options as laid out by the proposed disc brake rule change. Staying with KPLP and retaining the current tracks is an important feature to make the rule palatable for those competitors that do not want to make the conversion to disc brakes. Just the politics of the situation.

Brian

[BLS]

Dietmar,

Thanks for your follow up in post #76. Missed it before. Interesting, especially the Aussies...

Barry

[DaveB]

After reading through this thread Brian I think the $2400 price in post #17 is pretty close to the correct cost. I came to that conclusion taking Matt at his word the $1200 dollar price is high. Considering many FV competitors ruin multiple tracks not just Low speed (girlie man ) tracks I will need a second rear brake kit. I sure as hell am not swapping from box ! To some that may be less maintenance.

Dave

[Matt Clark]

I've had my car at car show and have made presentations at high schools and middle schools. I have never had anyone ask about the drum brakes. The questions I get are: "Who drives it?" "How fast does it go?" "Why doesn't it have a speedometer?" "Did you ever crash?"
And these are from young people. No mention of skinny tires or drum brakes!

I don't think these people are ones seriously looking at the class from a potential competitors standpoint then. MOST people I know that would consider the class do understand & question things like that. It is something we literally deal with weekly when we have newer people looking at the cars, especially when we are at the FRP weekends & those guys are looking at something for their kids or something to downscale to.

I think this statement should be change from 'advantage' to 'improvement'. The average competitor is going to have a brake system that is more on par with front running competitor brake performance. Current front runners are not going to see much if any performance gain. They WILL see reduced maintenance.

Brian

This is a very valid point. The guy who uses stock NAPA shoes & does zero prep to his drums will probably improve performance. If you arch your Porterfields or Carbotechs & turn drums, etc... you may not see any gains.

Yes… they were addressed by going to a balljoint beam and reseting the track with no concern for backwards compatibility. Those are not options as laid out by the proposed disc brake rule change. Staying with KPLP and retaining the current tracks is an important feature to make the rule palatable for those competitors that do not want to make the conversion to disc brakes. Just the politics of the situation.

Brian

For reference, South Africa still uses Link Pin beams.

After reading through this thread Brian I think the $2400 price in post #17 is pretty close to the correct cost. I came to that conclusion taking Matt at his word the $1200 dollar price is high. Considering many FV competitors ruin multiple tracks not just Low speed (girlie man ) tracks I will need a second rear brake kit. I sure as hell am not swapping from box ! To some that may be less maintenance.

Dave

it depends on what is done for a final rule & what the person decides to buy. we already have prices on the basic kit we are using, and hope to get it lower with a group buy. for all 4 corners, I don't think the price we are looking at with our kit will be bad at all.
but as I have said, this is a kit spec'd to the requirements we want after a lot of discussion & research... not the wide-open rule we are reading in the opening post here.

[Hardingfv32]

IFor reference, South Africa still uses Link Pin beams.

Maybe some vintage or second level class. Their top line class is BJ beam AND 1300cc WATER cooled engine!! They have stay up with the technology game.

Brian

[Matt Clark]

side note.... where is the link we need to send letters in with? I may be missing something, but I am not seeing it.

[Matt Clark]

Maybe some vintage or second level class. Their top line class is BJ beam AND 1300cc WATER cooled engine!! They have stay up with the technology game.

Brian

No, they do not.
and it is the 1400cc engine.

Trust me... Johan Wasserman is from South Africa, is now running Challenge Cup, and is one of our resources on this.

[S Lathrop]

Matt,

What caliper is that in the picture?

It is a single piston floating type.

[Matt Clark]

Matt,

What caliper is that in the picture?

It is a single piston floating type.

VW Chico in South Africa... Golf to the rest of us. Also the source of the 1400cc engines.
I believe you are correct about its specs. Ray, Dad & others feel that the 4-piston caliper in this proposal is too much, hence our 2-piston FVCC package. If the MUCH faster FVSA cars can use them with no problems, our slow US-spec Vees would be more than fine not using 4. Ray, Johan Ed Womer & a few others would have more to say about them, as they all have raced both cars now.

http://www.formulavee.co.za/index.php/the-car/

[Hardingfv32]

... we already have prices on the basic kit we are using, and hope to get it lower with a group buy. for all 4 corners….

but as I have said, this is a kit spec'd to the requirements we want after a lot of discussion & research... not the wide-open rule we are reading in the opening post here.

1) Still no stated or estimated prices. The Jamar 4 corner retail prices are: $1600 (2 piston) and $1800 (4 piston). So your hope is for what…. 10% group buy discount for a final price of about $1440. For those that do not make the group buy it should be the full retail.

If these kits use customized hubs and brackets… will they be more expensive than similar retail items if purchased at a later date?

2) Who and how is a group buy administered? How many CC competitors are actually ready to put up $1400. This whole project seems out of character for the cost conscious CC series. What has changed?

3) Jamar is not a known for road racing brakes like say AP/Lockheed etc. What do we know about their performance beyond Ray's usage? Am I correct in saying that there is only one disc pad compound and that all service parts will have to be purchased from Jamar?

4) What is your concern about the proposed open rule relative to the Jamar proposed kit? How does the Jamar kit not comply with the proposed rule.

The Jamar purchase might be fine for a restricted group like CC but I do not think the average SCCA FV competitor (interested in disc brakes) is going to happy restricted to one small manufacture. Most the competitors who spring for this conversions are not going to be put off by the extra expense of road race proven parts from major manufactures.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Trust me... Johan Wasserman is from South Africa, is now running Challenge Cup, and is one of our resources on this.

Ok then… what is the design of their system? Who's hubs are they using? Why is the CC not following their lead?

Brian

[Matt Clark]

1) Still no stated or estimated prices. The Jamar 4 corner retail prices are: $1600 (2 piston) and $1800 (4 piston). So your hope is for what…. 10% group buy discount for a final price of about $1440. For those that do not make the group buy it should be the full retail.
If these kits use customized hubs and brackets… will they be more expensive than similar retail items if purchased at a later date?

Because we still do not know final price. It very possibly would be more expensive if you do not make the group buy... that's kinda how it works. I have no clue what the prices would be down the road. Brackets are the same, hubs & discs are where we are tweaking.

2) Who and how is a group buy administered? How many CC competitors are actually ready to put up $1400. This whole project seems out of character for the cost conscious CC series. What has changed?

We already have double digit people ready to get them in the series, and a LOT of interest from outside. As far as "who" administers it? I would guess it would be the people dealing with Jamar currently.
You keep repeating that it is out of character for the "cost conscious series".... but you seem to be wanting to ignore that this is a long-term savings over drums, and that it will even the playing field even more. (see my above post talking about those who prep drums & those who don't)
This is perfectly inline with what our goals as a Series are. We are working towards a new manifold as well, based on the Aussie parts. Yes, it will cost some people more since they already have one of the insanely-priced "monster mannies", but again it will even the field & keep costs down in the long run. Some guys will lose their advantage, some guys will make a large competitive leap forward. We evolve as we learn what the demand is.

3) Jamar is not a known for road racing brakes like say AP/Lockheed etc. What do we know about their performance beyond Ray's usage? Am I correct in saying that there is only one disc pad compound and that all service parts will have to be purchased from Jamar?

True, they are not known for road racing brakes. We do not know much about the performance, hence our testing. And Jamar seems very willing to work with us & make sure it is right. We do know that LOTS of use of stock VW calipers has been perfectly fine, and these appear to be better than those by far.
As far as pads... no, there are several pad compounds. Jamar has recommend the ones we have right now as a starting point. I am not sure off the top of my head about only being available from them.

4) What is your concern about the proposed open rule relative to the Jamar proposed kit? How does the Jamar kit not comply with the proposed rule.

My personal (and shared by a few others) concern, is that the open rule perhaps does allow too much. It allows a larger rotor & a 4-piston caliper, for starters. After what we saw this weekend & the experience with the FVSA brakes, I am pretty sure that those will plain be too powerful. Also, being so open, it does allow a LOT of development. Depending on what people find that fits, it could lead to some VERY expensive setups.

The Jamar purchase might be fine for a restricted group like CC but I do not think the average SCCA FV competitor (interested in disc brakes) is going to happy restricted to one small manufacture. Most the competitors who spring for this conversions are not going to be put off by the extra expense of road race proven parts from major manufactures.

This is a valid point. But as stated above, the proposed ruleset probably will be too powerful. It would also be a bit of a detriment to both groups if we ended up with different rules suddenly. The "normal" SCCA FV discs would not be allowed in FVCC, and the FVCC disc option would not be enough to switch to slicks now & then. Both groups potentially lose entries.
What this does do, though, is allows for ANYONE to just call up or jump online & get a 1-stop kit with everything you need. Literally 45min is all it took to swap the brakes this weekend.

Ok then… what is the design of their system? Who's hubs are they using? Why is the CC not following their lead?

There is a lot of custom work being done on that system. We chose not to follow that lead, because like I mentioned, we want people to be able to simply order from a catalog. For a very detailed explanation of what they have to do, Johan would be best to ask. There is a lot of cutting & fixturing to build theirs.





I will also add, that there are people outside of Challenge Cup that favor this setup. Some very smart & known people. This is more than just our "rogue" group doing our own thing. And one of the things I want to point out, as far as I know, is that this proposal was written without anyone actually putting a kit together that meets the proposed rule (with the 11.75in rotor, 4-piston caliper, etc). This effort at least has physical parts & testing being done & data gathered. I am not saying those who wrote it do not know anything... I just worry about actual application & real world use differing from theoretical builds.
If what we are doing does not jive with whatever new rule comes about, then so be it. But I think it will reduce the positive effect it will have on everyone.