no, we just need to figure out a lot more things ahead of time & not leave a rule so wide-open from the get-go... which has been my point right along.Originally Posted by crypt0zink
no, we just need to figure out a lot more things ahead of time & not leave a rule so wide-open from the get-go... which has been my point right along.
~Matt Clark| RTJ-02 FV #92 | My YouTube Onboard Videos (helmet cam)
Assuming the limiting factor of all braking is the tires, as long as the weight of the assembly is comparable to the drum brake, there should be no reason to spend or develop more than you need.
A disc setup will be less aerodynamically sound compared to a drum setup, the question would be is the anti-fade performance significant at tracks like Indy (turns 7 and 12 seem to be high braking areas) or Road America (Turn 5 and 12-Canada Corner). Even there brakes should be able to cool between. I think it will be interesting to hear from the guys at Indy re how important brakes are there.
Trying to look at FV from Ireland and Brazil, many still run rear drums which I think is practical as well as cost effective, Any leaks from the engine will get on a rear disc, while good axle seals will keep the drum and shoes dry with little chance of engine oil getting in.
ChrisZ
Brazil uses discs at both ends, and do not have any issues.
~Matt Clark
Ha ha. Your ignorance is showing again. You can field a car in a number of classes cheaper than you can win a FV Major. But, then you would be comparing apples and oranges. You want to win the ARRC in ITS or ITR, that equipment isn't cheap.
I know that I could build a RunOffs winning capable FV cheaper than I could build a ARRC winning E46 or TSX.
FV isn't cheap to run up front, but it doesn't get any cheaperThe right disc brake package can help keep it that way.
Of course… this is exactly how the FV rule set has been developed over many decades. This is not a spec class so it is subject to constant development.
I would say that it is not clear what needs to be restricted at this time. We need to get some systems on the track and then make adjustments based on their performance.
Brian
"I would say that it is not clear what needs to be restricted at this time."
Just my opinion, no change in track width and minimum weight as installed no less than the original drum brake system. With that, it's hard to see how there is any performance advantage over a properly set up drum system. There will be an advantage over drums brake systems not optimized.
I'm a Vintage FV driver and my Lynx B is older than me. Disc brakes have talked about/recomended for 40+ years of FVs (VeeLine Newsletter). Last year it was tires and now it's discs brakes.
Why should I race SCCA FV?
if you have a Vintage FV, sounds like you would be extremely uncompetitive in SCCA FV as it is, so you are unaffected.... yes?
~Matt Clark
"Why should I race SCCA FV?"
You would choose something else that has drum brakes?
With a few exceptions - any driver under 30 will have a FV older than him....
Since you have a great Vintage group in the MidWest - and probably 4 or 5 vintage races where you can run - I would not move.
But, it you wanted to run FV in SCCA - Assuming you have a fire system, Fuel Cell, and front roll hoop that meets current rules, all you would need to do is slap on a set of slick tires to run.
As mentioned above, you probably have a Z-bar car, and fan cooling and a working generator. So immediately you are down 2 - 4 hp and at a handling and aerodynamic disadvantage to modern cars. But I doubt you would be much slower, if at all to the new drivers we have or even drivers who are running on a budget.
I looked at lap times at Blackhawk - fast time at a regional was around 1:22.5, fast time at a vintage race was 1:29.
Put slicks on and immediately go to 1:25 or 26 - similar times at Thompson would put you int he middle of some good racing.
Or bolt on a set of Challenge Cup wheels and tires and probably will be about the same.
If you have a Lynx B with a hybrid cooling system and a good motor - maybe even a little faster...
So why would you want to run an SCCA race? Track time? (practice days are probably cheaper). Competition and learn a new track? - sounds good to me. Fellowship with other FV guys? Come on down!
ChrisZ
Must be a readily available package.
South Africa have a package available from any VW dealer. However.....the rotors get skimmed.
Brazil also have an over the counter system with no mods.
I suggest a softer compound pad. Pine is too soft as per Al Spadin...he recommended Maple. See the Challenge Cup suggestion from the members.
Disc Brakes
Matt,
are you referring to the setup Ray Carmody has tried? I think it has had very limited resting so far, but I may be wrong.
yes, that is the kit I am referring to. limited testing or not, it at least exists, has been on a car & has a final configuration end goal.
~Matt Clark
Forgive my naivete as a relative newbie to FV. I have not heard details about the cost savings here. Let's say we take the Carbotechs out of the equation and consider lining costs closer to the Porterfields, which are around the cost of racing disc pad sets. What are the cost savings then?
Porterfields are only barely cheaper than the Carbotechs. And again with the aggressive shoes, they eat drums rapidly. Some guys have said 1 season.
The pads we have been trying, and the ones FST use, are under $40. And appear to be good for a long time.
~Matt Clark
Have been using a semi-metalic street shoes in my vintage Vee. How much better are the Carbotechs/Porterfield by comparison?
From what I experienced, it is a huge difference. Especially late in the race. The high end shoes do not fade or overheat.
Stock/street shoes just cant handle the hard running anymore.
~Matt Clark
Disc brakes
Porterfields currently sell for 129 a set
Dietmar
www.quixoteracing.com
Hi Folks
I just finished my second full season on the Porterfields, no drum wear and great performance.
I know this is about disc brakes but the story here is your drums brakes will work as needed at a lot less cost
than disc brakes kits.
Sherman
"Set" is four quarters?
129 per axle. Work great,wear like iron
'Work as needed' depends on how fast you are in competition. It also does not speak to the maintenance time involved.
Remember the disc brake switch is optional. A performance gain is not guarantied with a switch to disc brakes.
Brian
I've been running Porterfields and Carbotech's (6's) for fours seasons on the same front German drums. The Porterfields did not seem to wear the drums at all, and wore like iron. Not that I've noticed the Carbotechs wearing my drums, either - just one season so far. The Porterfields are much less expensive, unless they had a big price bump in the last year.
"on the same front German drums."
John, curious, did you have the drums turned before using the carbotechs? I have been told they will not work well if used after another material. I have no direct knowledge of this.
Yes I did have the drums turned between the Porterfields and the Cabotechs. I started with an old thin set of mean greens, then to the new Cabotechs, and then back to the greens, and then back to the new Cabotechs. In this case switching between old and new Cabotechs, I had no issues and never turned the drums. But the Greens only had one full practice day plus a race weekend before the new Cabotechs were first used - perhaps not enough to be an issue.
I see the CRB Minutes were released on 11/12, and have a rather large number of letters addressing the disc brake bit in the older Fastrack. The canned response to all of them is "Thank you for your letter. Please see the response to letter #22456, October 2017 Fastrack Minutes.". That is the original Fastrack letter.
Is this just saying they are going forward with the original proposal as originally written?
~Matt Clark
"Is this just saying they are going forward with the original proposal as originally written?"
Since the board met and has not approved it, I assume it is going nowhere for now.
Barry,
The words "board & nowhere for now" always seem to run together when discussing the SCCA.
Not much has changed...
Maybe we'll be proven wrong. Don't hold your breath.
I would say that the F&S sub-committee gets a shoot at the results first. Possibillly there will be a changes to the wording before forwarding to the CRB.
This committee process takes time. Committees might meet once a month and when then you have the added layer of the sub-committee. I can see where they would want to give the member response a month before reviewing.
Even if they approve discs... who are you going to purchase them from? This is a change that is not going to happen overnight.
Brian
Gotcha. Thanks for the process info, Brian. I wasn't sure if it meant it was going forward exactly as written & it was pass/fail, or if there was further tweaking to it.
As far as who we will be purchasing from... since I run Challenge Cup, and there are many of us looking to switch either way, sounds like we are putting an order in to Jamar as soon as we iron out a few details. Anyone who is interested in the group buy needs to make it known now in preparation.
~Matt Clark
The 'word' I am getting is that the Jamar system is far from an acceptable system for top of the line SCCA competition.
I also doubt the CC is going to go with a system that does not conform with a possible SCCA disc rule. CC does not want a rule set that does not match SCCA. Where would they get new competitors from if they were to have cars too different from SCCA?
I think your group but call is a little optimistic.
Brian
Brian,
What SCCA "Disc" rule are you referring to as they can't seem to agree on "spec tires" or anything
else, and I'm sure the CC would love to have coordinated rules with the SCCA, but will
move ahead with or without the SCCA. It's unfortunate that this most likely will occur, but the SCCA
has become a behemoth that requires too many meetings and years to get anything voted on.
Mark
Welp, I cannot help whatever info you are getting then. There are a lot of smart National people that think it is.
And you can doubt whatever you want. Fact is, FVCC was waaaay ahead of SCCA on this, and we are still the only ones who have even put together hardware, much less a written list of exactly what purchasable parts to use.
As a side note to this point, one of the issues we are looking at, is the 14" wheel we use. I am not 100% such a large SCCA rotor will fit.
Personally, I am gonna be a little bold here & possibly hurt some feelings, but I have a nagging little thought in my head that the SCCA proposal is a knee-jerk reaction to FVCC doing their own brakes. A lot of knowledge of it was getting around, and people on both sides talked to each other. A lot. I know we were ahead of the game. Then suddenly out of the blue comes the SCCA announcement. Just my
~Matt Clark
The first post on this occurred on 9/12.
That was 2 months ago.
First majors races begin early Jan. Perhaps I'm wrong, don't understand the process, whatever. But I find it hard to believe this is going forward for the 2018 year. I would be happy to be proven incorrect as I am in favor of allowing it as an option.
Matt,
The SCCA and the CC disc brake considerations were both already well underway early in the year and were going on independently of one another. Ray and I spoke about it in the spring. The timing of the SCCA request for member input (the SCCA announcement you mentioned) had only to do with when decisions/changes need to be made for bringing on such a change for an upcoming year.
Matt & Others,
About the process, I think some folks got confused because the October Fastrack came out in September (that same September announcement again). It said that “the CRB recommends the option of disc brakes in FV.” This notice also requested member input, and suggests it then goes to the BOD for the final decision.
What you then saw in the preliminary minutes this week is the CRB listing the letters the CRB got and referencing (pointing back to) that original announcement in the October Fastrack, which came out before the Runoffs in September. As the September announcement mentioned, it’s in the hands of the BOD for when it’s ready to come to vote. John
"As the September announcement mentioned, it’s in the hands of the BOD for when it’s ready to come to vote."
Thanks for the clarification, John.
Barry, sure thing!
Some time ago I promised myself I would stay out of the latest controversies, but...
...here goes nuthin'...
If you really want disc brakes (and rack & pinion steering) so bad, why not just go Formula First ?
I know I just painted a target on my chest, but...oh well.
Glenn
I know that, some how, this will turn ugly & personal...as they always do.
"...why not just go Formula First ?"
To reply with the most obvious answer:
First is a regional class, and has a limited area with enough cars to be competitive. Were it a national class I think it would split FV. Just my opinion. First's are pretty neat cars.
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