National weight slips

[CM/FFdriver]

What I'll be doing this year at the Crow's National Tour is ask chief of tech if someone can be responsible of handing out weight slips of a official manner to test out the ease of handing out these slips and not hold up the event, Write down your weight and could it hold up in a protest.

This feels like a lose end right now and needs not be so vague. How would this make you feel if you come across the scales at 1113 to your eyes and you get back to the grid to find out that your under weight was written down wrong, now yes you could go back and re-weigh your car and double check the weight numbers But....? I would hate to Win or lose based on controversy.


Ben

[ahowe]

Ben,

In timing, there are several double checks to make sure that everything is correct and traceable. One way that is done is a thermal tape printer that records every timer trip directly from the timer - no human interaction. Every time gets written down in sequence with car number and class and the thermal tape is a backup of the times. (Worker station corner sheets are the backup of the car sequence.)

The equivalent on the scales would be to have the worker press a button to record the number on the scales and write it to a thermal printer. Workers would write down the weights like today, but in the event that something got written down wrong, the thermal tape is a print directly from the scales that could be used to double check.

Lacking that, I want a second sheet of paper handed to me. So, I'm with you.

Andy

[TeamFRD]

I worked impound for the first time at Nationals. There were definitely plenty of bodies that one person could have the slip task.
I'll suggest even to take a photo of scale display with car in background, for the record.

[rdracr]

Would I like to have a totalizing scale with a dual printout (one for the competitor and one for record). You bet. But try and find one that is portable without having to construct a platform. I have been looking for one with little success. All I have found are permenantly mounted platform scales. Some older models may have had them but not now.

While Tech has personnel to spare at that one race per year, the Majors, it is definately NOT the case at Regionals and the impound process is the same.

[-pru-]

If this idea does come to pass, I would view these weight slips similar to those timing slips handed out as you come off course; a strictly unofficial convenience item. That is, posted weights, as recorded at the time you are being scaled, override any weight slip handed to a competitor.

That said, if you would like to see weight slips to become part of National event operations, I suggest submitting a request to the SEB via https://www.crbscca.com/

Take care,

[chrisw52]

since we are on the discussion about car weights... also remember to clearly mark your minimum weight. Seems there is an error in the GCR..

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...43&postcount=7

[TeamFRD]

Chris- There is an exception for CMod since we don't require the heavier spec tire.
See ...
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...0&postcount=20

[chrisw52]

Chris- There is an exception for CMod since we don't require the heavier spec tire.
See ...
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...0&postcount=20

right, but the cars running a kent or honda engine have a different weight than cars with a cortina engine.

section 9.3.28 of the GCR says that we need to display the minimum weight for the car for car classes which have multiple minimum weights (i.e cortina 1050, kent & honda 1100) The wording of this section is incorrect by offering the FF as a class with a single minimum weight class.

[TedV]

My experience at nationals on weight. " lets do the most we can do to not let you know what your weight is. Put all kinds of crap in front of the display so the driver doesn't have a clue what they weight." That is BS.

This is not just a Solo kind of thing. I know of a road racer who rolled across the scales at the RunOffs, 1 pound over minimum. They were berated, degraded and called everything in the book that is a 4 letter word. They should have gotten a medal for being so spot on.

I have labeled my cars with minimum weight. roll across scales.. be asked what my min weight is.. I point at the number.. and be asked again what my min weight is. I ask " why did I follow the GCR and spend money on stickers for my min weight decal if you can't read?" again I get asked what my min weight is supposed to be...

after 25 years as an SCCA member I truly believe I need to find another hobby.

[-pru-]

section 9.3.28 of the GCR says that we need to display the minimum weight for the car for car classes which have multiple minimum weights (i.e cortina 1050, kent & honda 1100) The wording of this section is incorrect by offering the FF as a class with a single minimum weight class.

Chris,

You are right in that the GCR section for FF min weights is incorrect; FF must display a min weight.

The above stated, for National level Solo events, your min weight is listed on your Tech sticker. The min weight that is listed is what you tell the Tech inspector.

In summary, it's your responsibility to know your min weight and achieve it. Given, the accuracy of the scales at National events, we always roll across the scales prior to competition to know where we stand.

Take care,

[Barry Ott]

Weight slips? Hmmm, interesting question.

Like Pru said, I would think that any slip a competitor is given would be unofficial, so it wouldn't matter much in a protest. From an *official* standpoint, weights are really a pass/fail.

My experience has always been: Roll on to the scales, "What's your minimum weight?", "1100", "11xx", "Thanks", Roll off... No drama.

I'm assuming this discussion is because the "recorded" weights some people saw posted were different than what they were lead to believe when they were weighed????? To be fair, my posted weights always matched what I was told at the time so I never worried about it.

From the rule book. Impound section: " If there is any question about compliance with weight requirements, the vehicle will be weighed in both directions." I think if anybody is light, they will KNOW. You'll be weighed in both directions, they'll re-zero the scale, they'll probably check the scale with the calibration weights, etc. So, you'll know and I bet your competitors will know too.....

Honestly, I don't see the scenario of "I would hate to Win or lose based on controversy" happening, but I could be wrong.

With all that said, it couldn't hurt to have a better way of documenting what the scales say.

[Barry Ott]

...and following up on the pdf of our weights that Pru posted in the 2016 Nats post.

I didn't work Impound this year but did the three previous. In the years I worked, there wasn't a computer to enter data, it was simply recorded by hand. The pdf's that Doug Gill provided, the ones that Pru posted, were spreadsheets. I wonder if the differences that we noted were due to typos when the data was entered into the spreadsheets??

Barry

[CM/FFdriver]

I worked impound for the first time at Nationals. There were definitely plenty of bodies that one person could have the slip task.
I'll suggest even to take a photo of scale display with car in background, for the record.

I like this suggestion, Have my co-driver or some one take a Picture of my car when I roll up.

I call this CYA!

Ben

[CM/FFdriver]

Weight slips? Hmmm, interesting question.

Like Pru said, I would think that any slip a competitor is given would be unofficial, so it wouldn't matter much in a protest. From an *official* standpoint, weights are really a pass/fail.

My experience has always been: Roll on to the scales, "What's your minimum weight?", "1100", "11xx", "Thanks", Roll off... No drama.

With all that said, it couldn't hurt to have a better way of documenting what the scales say.

Because this is the 3rd year I've been in a car that had to be weighed, I have not heard all the story's good or bad about being weighed so..

Ben

[OneWayOut]

The min weight that is listed is what you tell the Tech inspector.

Why would tech be asking you to tell them the rules? Shouldn't they know what cars should weigh what amounts?

Maybe some background on the issue would help. Can you explain what prompted this discussion? Not all of us run national level events.

[Barry Ott]

Because this is the 3rd year I've been in a car that had to be weighed, I have not heard all the story's good or bad about being weighed so..

Ben

I hear you!!! The process seems a bit obscure and there's very little mentioned in the rule book. I guess I haven't heard of any bad stories so I'm not concerned. The only story I remember is from years ago (mid 2000's), when one of the CM guys was light. The impound folks went to great efforts before they declared him "under", and then I think a time penalty was added. Included in the effort was a conversation with his competitors. All in all, it seemed quite fair to me. Of course, there's no guarantees of future conduct....

Respectfully!
Barry

[bassracer]

I would agree that the spreadsheet posted is not an official document and so any issues with it are irrelevant.

I'm struggling to support the idea that the system is broken - maybe the workers are poorly trained (also found at some corners each heat at Nats, and sometimes in T&S). Everything that you can do as a chief to train and communicate the importance of the task will help keep competitors happy.

[Barry Ott]

Why would tech be asking you to tell them the rules? Shouldn't they know what cars should weigh what amounts?

It does seem kind of odd, doesn't it. The challenge is that weights are often based on what's inside the car, like engine displacement, induction type, tire size, chassis type, etc, etc, etc. The tech guys can't always see all the things that define the weight. Essentially, the competitor is declaring their minimum weight based on the specifics of their car, and the minimum weight is on the tech sticker for competitors so see and, if needed, protest. In the case of CM FF, it does seem a bit silly, although you could be running a non-Kent/Honda and be 1050#.

Barry

[farrout]

In our Regional Road Races, we get a tech card at Registration. The card (proving that you actually registered) is handed to the Scrutineers when you present your logbook/car for inspection to get your tech sticker. One section on that card is the min weight for your car. Because mistakes do get made, it is your responsibility to check that weight and correct it if necessary. On Motorsportsreg, part of your car's information is a place for you to enter the class, weight, etc. That number should come up on the Tech Card.

On the Scrutineer question, do you really want the Scrutineer to rely on his/her memory to know every weight for every class and the variations within the class? Get real. Hell, I cannot remember all the weights which vary with engine type/size for the class I run in - P2. I realize that my own memory has suffered with age and probably was never that precise to begin with.

[CM/FFdriver]

I believe Barry said it best that it's a Go No-Go kind of situation is great but it is still kind of vague because of what pdf of our weights that Pru posted of the 2016 Nats it left the discussion wide open.

I still going to ask my co-driver to take a picture to be sure, I'll just feel better.

Ben

[OneWayOut]

On the Scrutineer question, do you really want the Scrutineer to rely on his/her memory to know every weight for every class and the variations within the class?

I totally understand that it's impossible to tell the difference between the fuel injected Honda and the carbureted Ford. And I certainly don't expect them to memorize the numbers 1110 and 1060.

However, it does seem reasonable to expect them to have a copy of the GCR with page 321 bookmarked.

[rdracr]

Does it really seem reasonable for Tech to remember everyones minimum weight? Put yourself in the position of having to weigh fifteen cars, front axle, rear axle and driver and add them correctly per GCR unless you have a platform scale with two or three people doing the weighing all of which can have different minimums. Yea and all of this has to be done before the next group arrives.

Yes I agree with the need for automation but it ain't free and who is going to pay for it.

[Barry Ott]

I still going to ask my co-driver to take a picture to be sure, I'll just feel better.

Ben

While he's there, have him hang out until the end of CM and take a picture of the impound form with all our weights. You could post the picture and then we can compare that with the PDF. :-)

Barry