POLL: How old must a car be to be "Vintage" eligible?

[gbilawsky]

Several of the Vintage Associations that I race with are holding their year-end board elections. The contention surrounding the views of "Vintage-eligible" cut-off dates is very high and is a polarizing the memberships.

Not that this will solve anything or sway tightly held opinions...but, I am curious as to the view of the owners and drivers of purpose-built race cars (open wheelers and sports racers) on this topic.

Given 2017 is almost upon us, let's consider these 4 selections:

1972 - 45 years old or older
1982 - 35 years old or older
1992 - 25 years old or older
2002 - 15 years old or older

BTW: This is confidential. No one can determine your vote.

[JeffW]

Its whoever is willing to pay the entry fee to whatever organization.

In my experience the one or two organizations that claim to be true vintage can go way the other way and get excited about whether the dampers are new, or carbon fiber is used.

JeffW

[Rick Kirchner]

Well Jeff has a point...

I believe the snooty end of the grid for which life stopped in 1972 only wants to ensure the value of their cars stays high. Non of that Clib Ford trash allowed (unless we have to cover track rental).

Me - i believe vintage is an attitude, that i want to race hard but put the car back on the trailer the way I brought it in.

[troyt]

I think no Driver or Car should ever be allowed into my Group that is younger/newer/faster/prettier than me

[Ken Lawrence]

Any car as long as the driver is 30 years older than the car, or over 75

[gbilawsky]

124 views and only 12 votes???

The Russians must be hacking my poll.

[Jerry Kehoe]

Interesting that some "purist" organizations have no problem accepting cars that were in junkyards, never were racecars, but now have rollbars installed and are magically pronounced as "vintage" race cars but cars that have only been racecars ( formula cars, sports racers, etc) are not accepted. Oh they have to be at least 25 years old and again magically current Cup cars are ok as well as Miatas. It's all politics and always will be!

[stonebridge20]

For profit or non profit vintage org's? Big difference!

[2fast2stop]

There are many cars competing in club racing that are more than 25 years old because most manufacturers have gone by the wayside or no are longer willing to produce new cars for such limited demands.

[Daryl DeArman]

Depends on the class. It's not about the age of the car, rather the leap in performance that may have occurred with the introduction of some new chassis or rule change, for example.

When the magic 1972 date was first floated about, it wasn't because of the cars' age.

[Jerry Kehoe]

One thing that is missed continuously is the whole point about "vintage" car racing is that it should be about the cars and the ability to see and hear the past as compared to the current technological wonders. For many of us that grew up around the race cars of the 50s,60s,70s,80s, 90s an event like the Hawk allows us to see what we raced when we were young, for those before that time period it's the same. Reality is that all of these cars should be on the track somewhere to be appreciated. It's really not about the fact that they can be competitive with the cars of today, the factors are all different between then and now and anyone who thinks otherwise is naïve. Pandora's box has been opened and everything has changed. We have probably seen the last groups of cars that can be run by amateurs as the new stuff requires a zillion engineers just to start them, suspensions without bearings that flex ( but only for a short while before they break) more computers than an Atlas rocket or finances that rival the crown jewels to afford to run them.

[Lotus7]

124 views and only 12 votes???

The Russians must be hacking my poll.

Can't meet your criteria; our car has been classified and run as Vintage, but is only 11 years old :-)

[Tigaman]

For profit or non profit vintage org's? Big difference!

Ahh, not so much...

[Tigaman]

Depends on the class. It's not about the age of the car, rather the leap in performance that may have occurred with the introduction of some new chassis or rule change, for example.

When the magic 1972 date was first floated about, it wasn't because of the cars' age.

I don't know about that.

The "leap in performance" with SCCA Prod was fender flares and tires. By 1972, you had flares and slicks, which was the major reason why the VINTAGE Prod cars all had to be prepped to 1967 PCS.

Heck, when I started in vintage, the cutoff was 1959! At least the group that my customers wanted to run with.

When Monoposto Classic Formula Fords (pre-1972) were beginning to come in, the Formula Junior guys went CRAZY, but it was one of the death knells for those cars, at least until their latest rise from the ashes, thanks to Nick Grewel and Joseph Delucia.

I remember the first Atlantics (Bob Cunningham) at Lime Rock on Labor Day in the early 1990's and people getting their noses out of joint because of that.

Now, we have VRG accepting Sports 2000 cars and VDCA hosting half a dozen Spec Miatas last weekend!

I believe vintage IS a state of mind. It's like the best of Club Racing twenty or thirty years ago, when if someone hit someone else, it was a time to take that driver aside and suggest they leave more margin until they were good enough, in skill and judgment, to run that close, again...

[Daryl DeArman]

I don't know about that.

The "leap in performance" with SCCA Prod was fender flares and tires. By 1972, you had flares and slicks, which was the major reason why the VINTAGE Prod cars all had to be prepped to 1967 PCS.

Heck, when I started in vintage, the cutoff was 1959! At least the group that my customers wanted to run with.

When Monoposto Classic Formula Fords (pre-1972) were beginning to come in, the Formula Junior guys went CRAZY, but it was one of the death knells for those cars, at least until their latest rise from the ashes, thanks to Nick Grewel and Joseph Delucia.

I remember the first Atlantics (Bob Cunningham) at Lime Rock on Labor Day in the early 1990's and people getting their noses out of joint because of that.

Now, we have VRG accepting Sports 2000 cars and VDCA hosting half a dozen Spec Miatas last weekend!

I believe vintage IS a state of mind. It's like the best of Club Racing twenty or thirty years ago, when if someone hit someone else, it was a time to take that driver aside and suggest they leave more margin until they were good enough, in skill and judgment, to run that close, again...

Sounds like we agree....it isn't about the age of the car. You had 5 year old cars running vintage back in the day. You have S2000 cars running vintage today. You say it's a state of mind. I say there shouldn't be definitive cut-off date that is across the board for all classes.

[Brian]

If memory serves, VARAC up in Canada was one of the very first vintage racing organizations, and started in the mid 1970's with car cutoff of 1961, or 15 years old. That got you MG's, Lister Jags, Lotus of various types, Specials, and production cars. Next to be added was Classic Sedan, mostly for the Mini's, and 1965 so the 1275 Cooper S was eligible. A few years later Historic cars were added, and 1972. Then they added another class and another class and another class, and I lost interest. I couldn't tell the vintage cars from the regional class cars. I ran Formula Ford for a few years, and started running with VDCA, of all groups, they being about as far from Toronto as you can get and stay on the east coast. I hauled various things down to Savannah in December for years.

I was a car purist, and when that changed I lost interest. But a lot of other people thought it was great, so I quite honestly decided they were probably right, I was probably wrong, and wished them well. VARAC is still going strong, as far as I know, so for me allowing cars that are 15 years old has come full circle, and it's more about attitude and respect than anything else now. No one invests to build a car they don't like, so the cars are still the show.

[pacratt]

I think no Driver or Car should ever be allowed into my Group that is younger/newer/faster/prettier than me

The bad / flip-side of this is that I'd be DQed for being ugly...

[pacratt]

Being strictly Formula Vee, my confusion lies in the latest (2014) Monoposto rules for FV.

The cars can be manufactured up to 1-1-1976, but be prepared as they were in 1969.
Some cars manufactured that late can't be set-up (set-back ?) to 1969.
The Zink Z-12's front axle beam is welded in as an integral part of the frame and has bell-crank steering, neither of which can be changed "back to 1969" configuration because the car wouldn't function AND didn't exist in 1969.
I'm not saying the car should be banned. I'm suggesting that the rules need to be better defined, less verbally constrictive and user friendly to bring some of these very old (but, apparently not old enough) cars out of terminal hibernation.
And if we're supposed to be prepping as 1969, why do we allow the new light-weight starters, modern super-tuned exhaust systems and Pertronix ignition ??

While we try to "dig-in" at 1969, other classes are already filling in with cars from the 80's & 90's.

At some point, it might become necessary to introduce a second FV group comprised of middle-years cars...the early zero-roll cars without gas shocks like the Caracal-C, Zink Z18 & Z18-B, early Predator P3 and the colorful array of home-made cars that made the class so popular and fun to run.

Yikes...THAT soap-box ran long...I'll stop.

Glenn (I voted)


Added note: I'm talking strictly vintage here, not current...but you all probably know that already.

[2fast2stop]

I do believe that every race car has a "soul" and has a valuable story to tell no matter which class nor the dollar value. Nothing worse than race cars that were orphaned and discarded like an od pair of shoes.............the stories all race cars could tell

[chrisw52]

Several of the Vintage Associations that I race with are holding their year-end board elections. The contention surrounding the views of "Vintage-eligible" cut-off dates is very high and is a polarizing the memberships.

Not that this will solve anything or sway tightly held opinions...but, I am curious as to the view of the owners and drivers of purpose-built race cars (open wheelers and sports racers) on this topic.

Given 2017 is almost upon us, let's consider these 4 selections:

1972 - 45 years old or older
1982 - 35 years old or older
1992 - 25 years old or older
2002 - 15 years old or older

BTW: This is confidential. No one can determine your vote.

Looks like you have the potential for 4 different classes within vintage.

[Rick Kirchner]

Last time I bothered to try and analyze it (about 2006 IIRC) I think there was something like 25 distinct classes of open wheel, if you break individual classes (FF, FC, FA, etc) apart by performance breakthroughs.

[dleblanc]

How about car + driver >= 75?

My '91 Spec Miata is now eligible for SVRA events. I'm thinking about running both my '69 Formula B as well as the '91 Spec Miata for vintage events. Weird, but cool.

Is the point of this thread to ask what we the drivers want or what spectators want to see? As drivers, we want to see cars that we grew up with and stuff even older that we have only read about. 1950's - 1980's? Hearing old cars wrung out that take you back to childhood is an awesome experience.

There aren't many spectators in the vintage races I run at, but...
Spectators want to see what they grew up with. If we want to attract the next generation of drivers (who might be in their teens, twenties or thirties right now), vintage needs to start allowing newer cars. SVRA is spot on to try 1.6L Spec Miata's. Not only are they cars that younger people might relate to, they are going to fill out the grids - which leads to better racing that is fun to watch. Don't forget that parts inventories for older cars are getting slim to none. Attracting cars with relatively plentiful spares (e.g. my Spec Miata) is a good thing. The magnesium parts on my formula car don't grow on trees.

Another scary idea - maybe include a drifting class? Heresy? Maybe not. Again, is this about us (drivers) or spectators?

Spectators want to see huge grids. Grids are going to continue to dwindle as old drivers leave the sport and older cars run less and less because parts aren't available.

Adapt or die.

[teamwisconsin]

My '91 Spec Miata is now eligible for SVRA events. I'm thinking about running both my '69 Formula B as well as the '91 Spec Miata for vintage events. Weird, but cool.

Is the point of this thread to ask what we the drivers want or what spectators want to see? As drivers, we want to see cars that we grew up with and stuff even older that we have only read about. 1950's - 1980's? Hearing old cars wrung out that take you back to childhood is an awesome experience.

I don't feel like vintage racing should be a snapshot of just the 50's/60's/70's, but at the same time I can't take the allowance of spec Miatas into vintage. My idea of what vintage racing is is pretty simple, can it still be run in (in its period correct guise) competitively in a club or pro race? If the answer is yes, then it ain't a vintage car. If I have a spec Miata, I can run it with SCCA, NASA, a million track day groups, time trials, autocross, and even on the damn street. Do these cars NEED to be in vintage too? Can't I have one place to go racing without seeing any Miatas?

[troyt]

"Can't I have one place to go racing without seeing any Miatas?"

Unfortunately, not for long. The Clubs requiring "older" vintage cars only seem to be dying out. On the west coast, CSRG is down to only four races a year, and even two of those are starting to allow newer cars. Some vintage Clubs (SOVREN) are slowly raising some of their cutoff dates, and other Clubs (SVRA, VARA) are starting to have a Class for newer cars so they can keep membership at levels that allows Club sustainability.

As others say, Adapt or Die. I don't like it, but if I want a place to run vintage, that's reality...

[Roland V. Johnson]

Ethan, you could run up front in a DB-1, much less a DB-6. The DB-1 is now 33 years old. On the other hand last year's F-1 car is obsolete.

[bob darcey]

If I'm reading their press release correctly, SVRA will have an invitational, discrete run group for Miata's at five of their fifteen events in 2017. That's great, but they're not opening up SVRA eligibility as of yet. It's one thing to run an invitational group on a limited schedule; it's an entirely different matter to amend eligibility to allow '90 thru '93 Miata's.

Vintage is, like most other race venues, looking for more entries. My local vintage club (RMVR) has passed a number of selective eligibility expansions over the years, but the results are not so impressive. I understand that a lot of people would like their 33 y/o DB-1's to be vintage eligible; sounds reasonable, but allowing in newer technology obsoletes the older cars and the net effect is usually zero. It's a delicate balance.

[DanW]

Ethan, you could run up front in a DB-1, much less a DB-6. The DB-1 is now 33 years old. On the other hand last year's F-1 car is obsolete.

Ethank spanks everyone in a 78 Crossle CF!

[JeffW]

What does the "V" in SVRA stand for again?

JeffW

[Christopher Shoemaker]

Avoiding the discussion on mentality and focusing on the core allocation presented in the poll, I think a distinction is needed at the Group level for each designation not just production year ... this is what we try to do in the VRG.

As such, here is an example (obviously near and dear to what we are doing with the Formula Ford Challenge Series) ...

Formula Ford
HF - Historic Ford (up to 1972, prepared accordingly)
CF - Club Ford (up to 1981, prepared accordingly)
FF - Formula Ford (up to xxx, prepared accordingly)

the overall group is Formula Ford, Formula F, or whatever the label within the group you have the original cars all the way until it pretty much ends or they turn in to continuation cars as the tech is maxed out. This model can be applied to many core groups.

Formula Junior
HJ - Formula Junior (Front-Engine)
FJ - Formula Junior (Rear-Engine up to 1963)

ETC .......

The rub really is when you get into qualifying a production year, versus focusing on the core group that were probably matched during that era. In that model I have no suggestion as pretty much after 1979, do we really have unique nature of car that really defined what racing is today? The challenge for sanctioning bodies is combining cars, but that is for another discussion.

--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC

[Roland V. Johnson]

And what does prepared accordingly mean?

[Christopher Shoemaker]

And what does prepared accordingly mean?

This allows the vintage organization to draw out the rules specific to the class and a year. This explanation is a bit more complicated, but in the FF model, if you update past a certain GCR (ie 1972) for a 1968 car you in effect update the class regardless of the year. I hope that makes sense?

--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC

[Jerry Kehoe]

All of this talk about updating the cars, classes, etc complicate the hell out of the basic premise of racing the cars. I suppose next you might consider handicapping the faster drivers since, imagine, better drivers tend to win!

[Christopher Shoemaker]

All of this talk about updating the cars, classes, etc complicate the hell out of the basic premise of racing the cars. I suppose next you might consider handicapping the faster drivers since, imagine, better drivers tend to win!

But I hope you are saying it is fair to NOT reward the guy who is driving a car that was outdated (ie Outboard Suspension, Front versus rear engine, etc...), just cause he loves the car and does not want to update it or buy newer!

This is the problem, Vintage clubs have today. I am not saying it is a great model, but I am saying it appears to be working over here in the northeast.


--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC

[Tigaman]

But I hope you are saying it is fair to NOT reward the guy who is driving a car that was outdated (ie Outboard Suspension, Front versus rear engine, etc...), just cause he loves the car and does not want to update it or buy newer!

This is the problem, Vintage clubs have today. I am not saying it is a great model, but I am saying it appears to be working over here in the northeast.

--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC

Chris, I'm trying to understand. What is the problem vintage clubs have today?

The S2 crowd found it very difficult to enforce "period correct" on each of the three classes the S2 group decided to recognize. Bodywork, shocks and most other restrictions weren't practical or enforced.

They found it easier to enforce a common engine prep rule, and of course all of the wheel width, weight, number of forward speeds and other measures that made S2's an S2.

The purpose of recognizing older, outboard suspension cars was to encourage their participation, but there have been quite a few people "trading up" to the latest and greatest, and all the people new to the group want a Carbir or a later T-8X/90 Lola, because all other cars are perceived to be at a performance disadvantage.

[Jerry Kehoe]

My feeling is that a guy should be happy to drive his car to the best of his abilities regardless of the technical updates he may or may not add to it. The realism that comes in is when you accept the fact that some other cars are so superior that even if you were Mario you aren't going to beat them no matter how hard you try. That doesn't mean you give up it simply means there is some reality that has to be accepted. My March87B/BMW V12 with half the horsepower, maybe a quarter of the downforce, 15 years of technology is never going to compete head to head with Brian French's Benneton, but it is a hell of a lot of fun!

[Tigaman]

I agree, Jerry. The premise of vintage USED to be that it provided a place for people with interesting cars to come out and play, with no premise of guaranteed competitiveness or level playing field. And it can't be when comparing F1 cars with Formula Juniors.

The rub to me is that, for example, some LMP-C cars are taking out restrictors, putting in "big" motors and otherwise removing the "spec" out of the "spec." How does this help anyone?

Of course, this used to happen when people ran 956 and 962 cars with "big" 3.2-liter motors with two turbos when the spec allowed 2.8-liter single turbo motors, this in vintage racing back in the Nineties.

FFord and S2, as well as Spec Miata, should be raced to their rules, not mix and match, IMO.

[Christopher Shoemaker]

Chris, I'm trying to understand. What is the problem vintage clubs have today?

The S2 crowd found it very difficult to enforce "period correct" on each of the three classes the S2 group decided to recognize. Bodywork, shocks and most other restrictions weren't practical or enforced.

They found it easier to enforce a common engine prep rule, and of course all of the wheel width, weight, number of forward speeds and other measures that made S2's an S2.

The purpose of recognizing older, outboard suspension cars was to encourage their participation, but there have been quite a few people "trading up" to the latest and greatest, and all the people new to the group want a Carbir or a later T-8X/90 Lola, because all other cars are perceived to be at a performance disadvantage.

Peter ... As much as I would like to explain, our history prevents me from saying much more than this ..... the model to date implemented for the RFFCS has been very successful. We recognize each class in the overall run group. This has promoted people to bring out the HF and offers options to those wanting to join in the fun (cost versus preservation, versus race, versus fun - I call it the Driver Club model). Currently the model is also being reviewed by VRG for a more broader implementation. This will help stem the need to update, and hopefully keep cars more in period. I am aware of the previous struggles within the S2 community as well as the split that occurred; I want to think we have done a better job. Time tells all!!

--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC

[Tigaman]

But I hope you are saying it is fair to NOT reward the guy who is driving a car that was outdated (ie Outboard Suspension, Front versus rear engine, etc...), just cause he loves the car and does not want to update it or buy newer!

This is the problem, Vintage clubs have today.

--- Christopher Shoemaker
Royale Racing, LLC

"HF"=Honda/Ford?

I still don't understand "the problem vintage clubs have today." What is the problem? Help me understand what you are trying to say?

[pacratt]

What does the "V" in SVRA stand for again?

JeffW

Variable.

[EVT]

I'm told that the rule in the 70's was; If it is no longer allowed or raced in SCCA, it qualified as vintage. in my opinion, I love a full paddock. Just add more classes. I don'want my vff to be in the same class as cff, nff or anybody else that out performs my car. EVT