SVRA has a problem!

[fitfan]

Guys ,I spoke with Tony. until he started using fowl langange but we sorted it out !
i am done (69 yrs old ) I think he has vintage racing at heart not the $$$$$$$ press on and hold there feet to the fire. OUT

don't feel bad, or take it personal.... you're not the only person he's used foul language on recently. and similarly, wouldn't be the first to walk away from an event because of it. so there is that issue to also be addressed.

i suggest sleep it off over the winter and come back with a refreshed perspective of current state - is what it is.

[Robert J. Alder]

Since it's been mentioned, It's probably time for someone from VMC to chime in. That would be me. I'm with RMVR, but been that club's representative to VMC for more years than I can remember and have served as V-P, President. and now as Treasurer of VMC.

To address the question of "Is there a protest process in vintage?" As correctly stated, not really. But here is some background of what VMC is and what is done with respect to driver sanctions

Vintage Motorsports Council (VMC) is just that -- a "Council" A trade organization if you will. The purpose is to deal with mutual problems of vintage race organizations and hopefully find solutions. Member organizations now count to about 28 across the US and Canada. As a Council, we have no rule making authority with any organization. We can only 'cuss, discuss, and recommend regarding mutual problems and solutions. These 28 organizations create and enforce their own rules, even own car classes, and, frankly, their own "racing ethic." Yes, it's like herding cats, but at the same time, it provides for a variety of approaches to satisfy their particular members and also to provide a diversity of racing experiences.

Anyway, to the point of this discussion, each organization has its own way of defining and dealing with their particular racing ethic and each have their own sanctioning process. VMC can't and won't try to inflict uniformity. Nor can VMC be the arbiter of any individual protest. That's between that individual and the organization. It's just not VMC's job nor do they, as a Council, have the authority to do such.

But here's what VMC can and does do. Each organization is encouraged to report any sanctions taken against any racer to the VMC. That ongoing list of "bad boys" is distributed and available to each organization to use for informational purposes. It is not a black list. But it does provide a feedback mechanism for each organization to be aware of someone who might have screwed up at an event of one VMC organization and then simply traveled elsewhere to race. It's not a perfect system, but it does help.

VMC can certainly emphasize to its member organizations that whatever their "rules & regulations," they should be enforced consistently. Nothing worse than rules which aren't consistently enforced. That seems an obvious mandate of "good business" for any racing organization, not just vintage.

Hope this helps a bit.

[tstrong]

So this is a great thread on a very important subject however I think it should be titled " Racing or vintage racing has a problem" not SVRA has a problem. The question is how do we balance the desire to "race" competitively vs the respect to not have contact and damage our or others cars and safety. If we truly want to parade our cars then we can come very close to never having a contact incident but if we are going to race (even with the vintage bubble) there will be [occasional contact. I have raced with several different vintage, club, and semi pro series over the years and they all have differing levels of tolerance for contact incidents. My personal preference is to be able to race closely, but cleanly. Leaving each other room and respecting each other's space on the track. That said there will be mistakes (a spin or lockup) that on rare occasion may lead to contact. What needs to be addressed is consistent over driving, aggressive, spins, possible contact incidents, etc. This is very much more difficult for organizers to police as it requires continued observation and recording of drivers performance and attitude. As has been mentioned above what is critical in whatever rule is adopted is to enforce it consistently and equally to all participants. Then the participants can choose if the rules/ philosophy of that club fit their own goals. One other consideration of some of the SVRA marquee events is that they attract racers from many different clubs and areas and abilities. Some that run one or two events a year and others that race many many events a year. However there are always lots of new or different faces that we do not know how they behave. I run approx 10-15 events a year but many of them are with the same club and same group or people. In this environment you learn who you can trust to run closely with and who you have to give more room. Even with very close racing contact is pretty rare. However in some of these big events with many different people who never run together if you allow close racing there is a much higher probability of contact. Not sure what the answer is, but think there needs to be a balance in the approach and then consistent enforcement. Todd

[noviceracer]

Speaking on my own, I think there can be a happy medium.
(snip) You CAN race hard but clean and fair.
(snip)
I am racing with SVRA this weekend at VIR. I'm going to encourage the Competition Director to call contact incidents MUCH tighter than the last few events, for sure. For my safety, and for that of my friends...

Peter, I am new to racing and chose to start in vintage because of the 13/13 rule and gentleman-racer stereotype. You helped develop the Alfa I race, and it's so good I'll likely never outgrow it

I was at the Glen last month (SVRA), and witnessed a bit of carnage but most of it seemed to be solo incidents. In run group 1 I found nearly everyone very respectful/polite and consistent.

Question: should I have said something to the competition director about the one guy I saw diving bombing people into corners and not giving way when others clearly had the corner line?

I heard a few complaints about the aggressiveness of competitors in other run groups. Two friends experienced light contact initiated by other drivers who clearly did NOT have the corner but felt they could push people off line regardless. Fortunately, none resulted in a crash or off-track experience. It clearly reinforced the stereotype that you shouldn't take valuable or important cars to SVRA because it's a bit lawless. I had the same experience at the Glen in 2015 (SVRA) and it definitely reduced the number of my friends who attended in 2016.

FWIW: I personally always seek out "the other driver" for a chat after a session if I feel I might have made an aggressive pass or if I think I did something that put them at risk (so far no fisticuffs)

How about having an SVRA person monitor & take notes from corner worker chatter and use that to give drivers unofficial "warning notices" after each session?

Finally, with your national reputation, perhaps you could speak with Tony about making a more broad statement to his competition directors about it. I'd rather see a little too little leniency than too much regarding overly aggressive drivers. The one time I was spoken to about competitive attitude, I really took it to heart and it made me a safer person to share the track with.

John

[Tigaman]

Peter, I am new to racing and chose to start in vintage because of the 13/13 rule and gentleman-racer stereotype. You helped develop the Alfa I race, and it's so good I'll likely never outgrow it

I was at the Glen last month (SVRA), and witnessed a bit of carnage but most of it seemed to be solo incidents. In run group 1 I found nearly everyone very respectful/polite and consistent.

Question: should I have said something to the competition director about the one guy I saw diving bombing people into corners and not giving way when others clearly had the corner line?

I heard a few complaints about the aggressiveness of competitors in other run groups. Two friends experienced light contact initiated by other drivers who clearly did NOT have the corner but felt they could push people off line regardless. Fortunately, none resulted in a crash or off-track experience. It clearly reinforced the stereotype that you shouldn't take valuable or important cars to SVRA because it's a bit lawless. I had the same experience at the Glen in 2015 (SVRA) and it definitely reduced the number of my friends who attended in 2016.

FWIW: I personally always seek out "the other driver" for a chat after a session if I feel I might have made an aggressive pass or if I think I did something that put them at risk (so far no fisticuffs)

How about having an SVRA person monitor & take notes from corner worker chatter and use that to give drivers unofficial "warning notices" after each session?

Finally, with your national reputation, perhaps you could speak with Tony about making a more broad statement to his competition directors about it. I'd rather see a little too little leniency than too much regarding overly aggressive drivers. The one time I was spoken to about competitive attitude, I really took it to heart and it made me a safer person to share the track with.

John

Thank you, John. You have a GREAT car and it looks like you're driving it well.

I'm not speaking in any capacity related to SVRA, but I want to answer the three "bold" points.

The fundamental, underlying and universal tenet is that CONTACT IS WRONG.

Does contact happen? Sure, but it's remarkable the linkage that exists between folks who push the envelope of ethical, principled and respectful (and this can all be done going VERY fast) behavior on the track and then end up involved or in close proximity to damage...

YES, you (and any competitor) should speak right away to the Competition Director and relate your experiences. With a video clip, if possible. The Competition Director needs this information to establish a pattern of behavior that can address concerns quickly, efficiently and objectively.

Again, report these instances if at all possible, as soon as they occur. I do...

I agree. Organizations, any of them, must walk the talk. Or stay silent...