f500-600 for P2

[rob66x]

Converted , Formula 500-600 cars are now ok in P2. I have been running a 1995 phantom with a Kawi zx10r in DSR in the SF region this year. Still has rubber dampers and solid axel . More options for great cars

[Rick Eskola]

Rob

Lets see some pictures, body on and off.

Rick

[Marty Nygard]

I don't know what the intent of the change:

1. #19448 (robert christensen) Add F-500-600 Converted Cars
In P2, AMAC, Asteck, Cheetah, Decker, Fox, LeGrand, add the following language:
Marque: "Converted F5 cars see notes"
Notes: "Converted F5 cars must meet all P2 non-spec line requirements except Minimum width is 55 inches."

was but I think the converted car must still conform to H.2 "Springs: Ferrous Material Only"

[rob66x]

It does not have springs

[Dr. Dave]

What do you run for a body? You have to be closed wheel right? I have a 94 Phantom, I have converted it to run coil overs, it was fairly easy and less than a 1k.

[Daryl DeArman]

It does not have springs

Sure it does. They just aren't typical coil or torsion type and they are elastomer of one type of another.

Seems a simple clarification for converted cars.

[rob66x]

well , with that line of thinking, my skin is a spring after all it has compression and rebound. my car according to the GCR does not have springs. and I believe those are the rules we use. i'm not sure why people since the age of the internet feel they have to make posts proclaiming they know better.

[Daryl DeArman]

my car according to the GCR does not have springs. and I believe those are the rules we use. i'm not sure why people since the age of the internet feel they have to make posts proclaiming they know better.

I'd proclaim that those GCR rules are the rules you use, since you don't seem to be certain. However, I don't want to pretend to know better.

The GCR doesn't define springs.

The so eloquently written portion of the GCR that pertains to the F500-F600 car says that those cars are "rigid suspension" design.

Rigid suspension. Hmmm....interesting. Wonder how the SCCA defines rigid?...and then goes on to specify that you shall utilize blocks/bushings and/or mount of rubber or similar material to isolate axles from shock or track irregularities.

Clearly, or not so clearly, it's one of those things were they confine the design allowed and then proceed to not call things what they are as to avoid confusion.

I don't have springs on my car either. I just have metal axle isolators that are bent in a specific manner to provide the desired properties.

[rob66x]

I think I'll go race my rules compliant car now, SEE YA

[Tom Grossmann]

Rob as a former DSR competitor and current F500 owner I have given thought to this:

First my car really is vintage (87 Novakar chassis #3) but the thought process still holds true.

It would increase the number of events where I can use the car, most track days do not allow open wheelers (although an F500 is rather small to be mixing with Corvettes), the vintage group I run with, VARA, doesn't really have a catch all class for open wheelers but they do have one for Sports Racers.

Sticking with the snowmobile drivetrain there are a few mods that can be done to up the performance; twin pipes, carbs and mild porting etc. that would lower the lap times a good bit.

I do see one downside, one would be hard pressed to keep up with the new generation of P2 cars at Nationals / Majors (or whatever they are called now). While its been probably a decade I have driven a Sthor, the leap from our home engineered DSR to that was quite a lot and our car held the DSR lap record. I've also driven an 06 Novakar and I don't see that making up the gap to a purpose built P2 car even with the switch to a 1000cc bike motor.

With that said I do think the switch is a viable one for a regional competitor or someone who is just looking to go faster than F500 and likes to tinker.

[rob66x]

I agree that the best p2 cars might be hard to catch , but thats the fun of it -- trying, or maybe dreaming

[ApolloKnight]

Found this thread while searching for Phantom bodywork... but I do have a question for the OP...

What all was involved in your conversion? I'm getting ready to rebuild my F500 for the F6 class - and might be picking up a second chassis in the next month or two. If most of the conversion is bodywork, the larger motor, brakes, etc etc, then I might skip the F6 class all together as I'd rather be in P2 anyways since that/P1 was my end goal anyways.

[rob66x]

You may have to do some frame mods, a new rear axel, bigger radiators. I'm going to 13 in wheels and tires cause I have been blistering the hell out of my 10's. I'm only getting one race on a set of tires ( 15 laps ). As of now I'm a couple of seconds off P-2 time at thunderhill, with a stock motor but I have a new trick one, plus more rubber and who knows. The car does well in DSR. I like to drive sideways (lots of dirt oval time ) so that is part of my tire problem

[GBugg]

Apollo - Just for clarification. There is no "F6 class". The F500 class currently allows restricted 4 stroke motors from production 600cc motorcycles along with a the 500cc (and a restricted 600cc) 2 stroke motors.

But we all run in Formula 500.

[captaineddie1975]

George. F6 is a legitimate Regional class. If and when F5 finally dies both F5 and F6 will be regional classes only. Interesting I read an article in a snowmobile publication that said the interest in 600cc machines was waning and that everyone now wants an 800. Maybe we can raise it to F800? What a ride that would be. One figure I saw for HP was 165!

[rob66x]

apollo, tried to pm you back, didnt work . call 775-410-1734. thanks rob

[GBugg]

George. F6 is a legitimate Regional class. If and when F5 finally dies both F5 and F6 will be regional classes only. Interesting I read an article in a snowmobile publication that said the interest in 600cc machines was waning and that everyone now wants an 800. Maybe we can raise it to F800? What a ride that would be. One figure I saw for HP was 165!

I stand corrected.

F800 sounds too scary for me!

[preform resources]

Here is a project we did several (10) years ago with J Novak for a Novakar DSR body on an Early chassis it was abandoned because of cooiing issues and lack of interest. It was intended to run 13" wheels.
http://www.preformresources.com/NovaKar/DSR-06.jpg
http://www.preformresources.com/NovaKar/DSR-07.jpg
Dave Craddock

[ApolloKnight]

Here is a project we did several (10) years ago with J Novak for a Novakar DSR body on an Early chassis it was abandoned because of cooiing issues and lack of interest. It was intended to run 13" wheels.
http://www.preformresources.com/NovaKar/DSR-06.jpg
http://www.preformresources.com/NovaKar/DSR-07.jpg
Dave Craddock

I wonder if he still has those body panels?

[preform resources]

We have the tooling, it needs a little work but is usable.
Dave

[mark 21]

Dave was that going to be an 80" long wheel base car or a longer car? Also what was the width of the car going to be?

[preform resources]

Mark, yes it was based on the Novakar J9 chassis/body but with wider 13" wheels. They tried an 850 cc two stroke (a virtually bolt in from what iI recall) but the stock location of the rad naca ducts was too far inboard to keep airflow attached so the cooling suffered.
Dave

[TedV]

There were a couple of DSR's that tried running 10" tires way back when I was working tire service. Even a sidewinder experiment with a whole lot more motor. They worked good for a short qualifier session but could not keep the tires happy the length of a race in the heat of the south. The DSR's were reworked to run 13" tires and the sidewinder disappeared.

[Tom Grossmann]

@robb I understand the chucking it round, between my motorcycle road racing background, my involvement in Rally and vintage racing a leaf doing car on bias ply tires I'm often reminding myself the F5 is the polar opposite.

@dave craddock, I toyed the idea of sport racer bodywork and what was done in the pictures is what I thought would work best as well. We've actaully moved the radiator up behind the rear hoop; it's a Honda Goldwing rad with integral fan mounted in custom sheet metal. It works very well for the slow speeds I see at autocross.

Back to the tire blistering; most of my motorcycle racing was on a 125cc GP bike and you could cook the tires in two laps. Basically you could squeeze out an extra 3-4 tenths for a lap or two backing off just a hair would make the tires last.

There is one element of an F5 that I would change immediately if I could, that's the lack of a differential. My old DSR had a limited slip and it offered an advantage over those cars with a locked rear end.

Robb you just post some pictures when you have a chance.

[cwoodruff85]

Mark, yes it was based on the Novakar J9 chassis/body but with wider 13" wheels. They tried an 850 cc two stroke (a virtually bolt in from what iI recall) but the stock location of the rad naca ducts was too far inboard to keep airflow attached so the cooling suffered.
Dave

I'd hate you guys to have to waste warehouse space on that... I've got some spare room, ready to sell?

[mmi16]

There were a couple of DSR's that tried running 10" tires way back when I was working tire service. Even a sidewinder experiment with a whole lot more motor. They worked good for a short qualifier session but could not keep the tires happy the length of a race in the heat of the south. The DSR's were reworked to run 13" tires and the sidewinder disappeared.

The Sidewinder DSR was Jim Bonsey's project. When Jim died, so did the project.

[Marty Nygard]

This is probably outside of the original subject, but Dennis Palatov (palatov.com) developed a sidewinder, bike powered car for track days. Did not use 10" wheels but had AWD from long chains between the engine and the two differentials. Also very short (<70"?) wheelbase.
M

[ApolloKnight]

This is probably outside of the original subject, but Dennis Palatov (palatov.com) developed a sidewinder, bike powered car for track days. Did not use 10" wheels but had AWD from long chains between the engine and the two differentials. Also very short (<70"?) wheelbase.
M

Very interesting (and expensive) little cars!