P2 parity

[Tigaman]

Makes me tired just thinking about all the development Dave's put into his car not to mention dollars.

+1,000!

While there is never any guarantee of parity, David built the auto engined car (ex S2) to the P2 rules, as written.

More performance than a S2 and the full bodied FE (sort of P3+) but the dumbed down DSR (P1-) cars always had much more potential. All due respect to Chris, a very experienced racer and an excellent driver.

Other folks have looked at duplicating Dave's experience (conversion up), which he documented extremely well (inspiringly so), but look at the performance spread. They have shelved their conversions...

That's the failing of the consolidation, IMO.

[Bill Bonow]

Yes, agreed. I do not envy the guys on the FSRAHC or the CRB at all.
They get the "flaming bag of dog poop on the doorstep" and are charged with making something function. I give those guys all the gratitude and respect for volunteering to take on such a task.

I still say that the P1/P2 that came from the old CSR/DSR is a damn good solution. Unfortunately, in these consolidations, someone always gets left behind. I don't think that's the case with Dave Ferguson. IIRC, Dave crossed the line first out at Laguna in 2014, but a post race PUY penalty cost him the win (moved to 2nd). I can't quite call that a failure.

It's not an economy or starter class for certain. In such, the technology marches forward. Keeping up to stay up front is part of the class. IMO, P2 has done a great job in slowing the technology march to a crawl. I don't think stopping or going backwards is likely to be in the cards.

[dalz]

I understand in open classes there will always be issues. If be Ferguson conversion is all that can be done to advance an S2, and it is not competitive with the advance of the Stohrs, that is an issue. Believe me if our creation is remotely in the ballpark it will be a blunt-force instrument. We're all set if the Runoffs go to Bonneville, but I don't know how we're gonna make it turn.

[Tigaman]

I understand in open classes there will always be issues. If be Ferguson conversion is all that can be done to advance an S2, and it is not competitive with the advance of the Stohrs, that is an issue. Believe me if our creation is remotely in the ballpark it will be a blunt-force instrument. We're all set if the Runoffs go to Bonneville, but I don't know how we're gonna make it turn.

[ghickman]

I understand in open classes there will always be issues. If be Ferguson conversion is all that can be done to advance an S2, and it is not competitive with the advance of the Stohrs, that is an issue. Believe me if our creation is remotely in the ballpark it will be a blunt-force instrument. We're all set if the Runoffs go to Bonneville, but I don't know how we're gonna make it turn.

I'm interested in hearing more about your car. Any pics you can share or ? I have no dog in this fight just curious.

[Jnovak]

For the competitors or for themselves? Combining dsr and csr was a total waste and wrecked the sport racer category. The "objective" was to consolidate the classes and bring out obsolete cars and make them competitive. So what happened? The obsolete cars are still not competitive (surprise surprise), they could have been back markers in dsr. Result: P1 is comprised of cars with zero parity (regardless of whatever BS comes from the ad hocers). MC cars in P1 have no chance against a real driver in an Atlantic conversions......long track, short track... no difference.
I think the only way to save the class is to get rid of P1 all together and push everyone into a P2 class that allows shifter systems, stock MC engines and tunnels. Send the Atlantics on their way or go back to csr/dsr and add a P3 for the older cars.

Hi JP. You usually make some very good points and axhieving parity with so many different combinations is not a simple task. And I think that achieving parity will take some time.

You state that motorcycle powered cars have zero chance against the FA conversions. As I remember an MC powered car won the Runoffs with some racer that we all know in the seat.
How was this possible?

[ghickman]

Hi JP. You usually make some very good points and axhieving parity with so many different combinations is not a simple task. And I think that achieving parity will take some time.

You state that motorcycle powered cars have zero chance against the FA conversions. As I remember an MC powered car won the Runoffs with some racer that we all know in the seat.
How was this possible?

I got the sense from his posts that what he was hinting to was "Properly Driven" they'd outrun the MC powered cars. He didn't use those words but I believe that's what he meant.

So Jay, put some fenders on that 014 and have Brian go at it. Pretty certain he'd be at the pointy end.

[Jnovak]

I understand in open classes there will always be issues. If be Ferguson conversion is all that can be done to advance an S2, and it is not competitive with the advance of the Stohrs, that is an issue. Believe me if our creation is remotely in the ballpark it will be a blunt-force instrument. We're all set if the Runoffs go to Bonneville, but I don't know how we're gonna make it turn.

Ferguson's S2 conversion is very competitive. He won the 2014 Runoffs on the track but was moved back a spot for passing under a yellow flag. David drove a great race in a great car. It certainly can be done. If they need a little more that I am sure that the CRB will make it happen.

I have seen full race pinto dyno data that has more power than David's MZR. So there is no reason they can't be competitive IMO. I think the main reason we are not seeing tha S2 racers running in P2 is simply that it takes some serious $$ to get there from the original performance.

[Jnovak]

I got the sense from his posts that what he was hinting to was "Properly Driven" they'd outrun the MC powered cars. He didn't use those words but I believe that's what he meant.

So Jay, put some fenders on that 014 and have Brian go at it. Pretty certain he'd be at the pointy end.

Frankly we do not have the budget to do that.

[Tigaman]

I think the main reason we are not seeing tha S2 racers running in P2 is simply that it takes some serious $$ to get there from the original performance.

^^This^^

I just find it surprising that S2 lost it's SCCA class status due to low turnout, yet in the years since, many historic races in the East and Midwest are getting 18-24 cars, on average. Heck, FORTY cars showed up at VIR in September, and EIGHTY cars showed up at Road America a few years ago, from ALL over the country.

They're out there. The Club just couldn't keep them...

[JohnPaul]

Mr. Forrer, Mr. Mucha, Mr. French Sr./Jr. make that statement sound kinda asinnine.

Asinnine? Lol. I think you are making my point for me.... have you raced against anyone you listed? Do you know if they are really good drivers or just have really good cars? (because I know there are both in that list). And since you pointed out these dsr track records, are you also trying to say that they'd go just as fast or faster in a MC powered dsr?? Are you trying to tell me and the rest of the world that an Atlantic conversion with more downforce, mechanical grip, torque, hp and top speed (mr. Mucha's car does190mph at daytona, and that number is from their camp) isnt going to be faster than a typical stohr P1 1 liter car with barely 200hp, and an oversized diffuser? Or my car that has a dumbed down 200 hp Hayabusa and weighs more than the 1 liter? Don't get me wrong, the stohr wf1 might be the best driving race car in the world and can obviously win races but it's at a huge disadvantage right now with the way the rules favor the Atlantics. Right now the rules and rule makers are restricting drivers not cars. They have no data to use to make decisions, just driver results. They arent even attempting to make an effort to look into it or make adjustments if neccesary. Its a joke and BS. Honestly, the SCCA is the worst run organization I've ever encountered in my life so I'm not too surprised.
And anyone using the runoffs as an example, it would have been won by a minute margin in an Atlantic p1

[Tigaman]

Right now the rules and rule makers are restricting drivers not cars. They have no data to use to make decisions, just driver results. They arent even attempting to make an effort to look into it or make adjustments if neccesary. Its a joke and BS.

That is not true... If anything, SCCA (as well as many worldwide organizations) HAVE begun to collect data to make comparisons and have a database of objective measures with which to begin informed study of the CARS, not the drivers. The advent of inexpensive GPS based, self contained loggers has transformed this process.

Look, I have NO dog in this fight.

I have plenty of great parity cars to race with right now. Cars that SCCA made obsolete after crafting a durable, proper and cost-effective set of rules and after thirty-five years of taking their money. I would not consider compromising my current competitiveness by spending a ton of money ($15K-$25K estimated) JUST to run P2 in an automotive engine car that has no chance of being competitive. Even if I did, the car counts are just not there.

It's a larger problem than class consolidation and balancing...

[JohnPaul]

That is not true... If anything, SCCA (as well as many worldwide organizations) HAVE begun to collect data to make comparisons and have a database of objective measures with which to begin informed study of the CARS, not the drivers. The advent of inexpensive GPS based, self contained loggers has transformed this process.
...

Well, if you are talking about the AIM Solo logger, I can tell you that at the big meeting at the runoffs I asked that they be used and I was flat out denied because the SCCA had no time or anyone to hand them out or even analyze them once they came back. There were a couple of hundred people in the room if you don't believe me. So.....yes it is true, the SCCA isn't interested in parity even though you would think with "the advent of inexpensive GPS based, self contained loggers" it wouldn't be an issue....makes you think huh??

ohhh, and the only thing on the data they look at and base adjustments on is 60-100 mph acceleration......WTF?? I guess it's called amateur racing for a reason. SCCA as an organization is amateur at best...

[Jnovak]

Well, if you are talking about the AIM Solo logger, I can tell you that at the big meeting at the runoffs I asked that they be used and I was flat out denied because the SCCA had no time or anyone to hand them out or even analyze them once they came back. There were a couple of hundred people in the room if you don't believe me. So.....yes it is true, the SCCA isn't interested in parity even though you would think with "the advent of inexpensive GPS based, self contained loggers" it wouldn't be an issue....makes you think huh??

ohhh, and the only thing on the data they look at and base adjustments on is 60-100 mph acceleration......WTF?? I guess it's called amateur racing for a reason. SCCA as an organization is amateur at best...

JP, believe me the club is trying. At the Runoffs they came to us and put the Aim Solo on our (Cal Stewart's) F500 car and 3 other cars. I do not know what happened but the data systems failed on all but one car. The data systems may have been damaged after their use on the F500 cars.

Please remember that about 99% of the workers at the club are volunteers and as an example those who helped with the data system were volunteers. It would be nice if the club could afford full time staff to do these jobs but right now the club cannot.

I personally do understand your frustration and I just want you to know that there are lots of folks in the club who want to figure out these parity issues.

[Tigaman]

JP, believe me the club is trying. I do not know what happened but the data systems failed on all but one car. The data systems may have been damaged after their use on the F500 cars.

Jay, without knowing the specifics, I can't posit why that might be the case, but as a multi-line dealer and user of these GPS-based systems since 2001, there is certainly a reliable solution.

As someone who has sold and serviced more than half a million dollars worth of AiM equipment alone, I know for a fact that the Solo can tolerate karts, snowmobiles, bikes, historic F1 cars, Pinto powered Sports 2000 cars (the worst harmonics I've ever seen in a four cylinder automotive engine) without difficulty, so something must be off in the mounting, charge state or configuration of these test units.

My calendar is full but PM me if there is something I can help with.

[JohnPaul]

Jay, you are 200% right. I'm acting like a baby out of fustration, and I apologize. I just want data collected and made public for everyone to see. Forget this secretive BS. Let's get the cars as close as possible and race. It's just not fun racing a car that holds you up in corners then pulls you down the straights like you are standing still (I mean 20 car lengths in some cases). I don't see this in any other national class. Why am I wasting my time and money?

[dalz]

JohnPaul, I wish to retract my offensive remark and say I understand your frustration better. If (big, big if) our car works out we will be THAT car in P2. While outsiders might think it's great that a variety of cars in one class can put on a great show, watching wild performance disparity from the cockpit is maddenig. I've completed in spec classes my whole career, and I thought I saw rules strife, but I might not know the half of it.

Still, I'm very pumped for this season, even if our project only gets as far as a couple test sessions and we realize it ain't happening.

[38bfast]

nor cars that are really set up for s 6" F / 8" rear wheel and would require major reworking to fit the wider wheel combinations currently needed to be competitive. Maybe I have a flawed perception that there are enough of these automotive powered SR's that would come out and run on narrower wheels, be limited to a formula that nets <150-160hp and run at a bit heavier minimum weight.

I have sent many letters asking to acomodate car/cars with smaller wheels and have been shot down every time. Seems their view is contact patch has nothing to do with performance. Last letter I ask for a 50# weight brake for any car running 7", 6" combination. Denied.

[38bfast]

Jay, you are 200% right. I'm acting like a baby out of fustration, and I apologize. I just want data collected and made public for everyone to see. Forget this secretive BS. Let's get the cars as close as possible and race. It's just not fun racing a car that holds you up in corners then pulls you down the straights like you are standing still (I mean 20 car lengths in some cases). I don't see this in any other national class. Why am I wasting my time and money?

JP this is exactly why DSR and CSR don't mix. The shape of the power curves are drasticly different. If you have two cars high power/heavy and low power/light capable of the exact lap time the high power heavy car will win every time. Assuming the same driver skill. Or they will both crash out due to the frustration of the driver in the light car getting his nose chopped off over and over again. It's the reality no one wants to admit. MC power and Auto power do not mix well at all.

[group3]

SCCA has posted it's latest tech bulletin with a change in P2 for the mc cars...follow link below if you haven't already seen it.

Tech bulletin

for what it's worth...

2005 - last runoffs at MO before this year, (they also ran the pro course that year)
DSR pole 1:21.5 followed by cars in the 22's, 23's and 24's
CSR pole 1:21.7 followed by cars in the 22's, 23's and 24's

Fast forward to 2016 MO (pro course)
P1 pole 1:17.3 next guy in the 18's, next 3 in the 19's next two in the 20's
P2 pole 1:20.1 next guy 23.4 two more in the 23's then one in the 24's
first auto powered car (6th) was 1:25.0

My understanding, the initial performance target of P2 was the Duratec cars in England which translates here to the 2.0 MZR motor with stock internals (the 6th place car above in P2)

don't know how much this will affect the mc cars but hopefully it will help the class in bringing in auto powered cars without killing the mc cars.

Armen Megregian
P2 Ralt Mazda Beasley

[provamo]

why don't THEY just ballast al the cars till they turn the same times LOL

[Craig71188]

why don't THEY just ballast al the cars till they turn the same times LOL

It would seem cheaper, easier and could promote safety as you could build a little more structure into the car ....

oh, never mind, SCCA...

[Jnovak]

It would seem cheaper, easier and could promote safety as you could build a little more structure into the car ....

oh, never mind, SCCA...

Pretty expensive to build a new chassis, suspension and brakes that could handle another 100-200 lbs on a car that was originally designed to get down to 1000lb min weight.

[Dog Licked Racing]

An the ESR gets a lot of new expensive tricks.