The Future of Class

[Bill Bonow]

I'll just throw this out here:

In 18 years, if FV stays the same, we will be racing an engine, front beam and transmission that was designed 100 years ago..............
But it is not going to get cheaper long term with 100 year old parts.

Well, some could say that's a bit of a stretch.

The closest prototype to the FV based Beetle was the VW 38 (1938) at 77 years ago.
Not much comes off that car and fits on an FV.
The FV link pin beam started on cars in '51 (64 years ago)
The gearbox housing (non-split case) started in '61 (54 years ago)
Some to most of the engine parts also started in '61 (54 yeas ago)

Not arguing, just being a VW freak.

[FVRacer21]

As another guy who wants to go racing and has been extensively researching classes, I can offer my view on the issues with Formula Vee. I'm not a young guy, but just a family man with dreams of racing.
In all my talking with racers from all classes (and just from the look of the cars) the FV class is seen as archaic. Part of that, rightfully or wrongfully, is there seems to be an unwillingness to adapt which is why F-FST got going. I don't know if that's the truth, but it looks the case.

While you can say the vintage looks don't matter, to those of us trying to convince our families that this is where a good chunk of our cash should go, everyone needs to be excited about it. Simply put, wider wheels and tires would drastically help the image of the class. As I sit right now, I would probably rather run Formula FST, but the run numbers here in the NE are better in FV. And, the availability of inexpensive Vees makes this class my most likely form of entry. I don't mind the dated motor or weak power figures, but the wheels, brakes and suspension seem unnecessarily dated.

But don't misunderstand me, I can't wait to race them...race anything! So it's autoX for me until I pull the trigger.

-Dave

Let me try to answer some of you points.

What defines archaic? A baseball bat that has not changed in 100 years? If someone came up with a magnetic brake would discs become archaic? Let's look at some alternatives FV.

Spec Racer Ford is 31 years old. Club Fords and most "current" fords are anywhere from 15 to 40 years old. Many Spec Miatas are 20 to 25 years old. Should these be considered archaic?

A FV corners well over 1g. goes over 115 mph, stops incredibly well because it weighs 1/2 of what the brakes were designed for.

When it comes to cost, there is no class, short of an uncompetitive IT car, where you can race competitively for less.

When my son did the OWDE, I followed the car to the grid, driving my SUV. I was struck by how purposeful and simple the car looked. No gimmicks, no funny looking appendages, just a simple machine for racing.

Would I like to drive a car with more horsepower? Of course. Can I afford to drive a car with more horsepower and wings? Not without winning the lottery or busting the family budget.

Is racing expensive? There are many other things you can do and spend less. That is not the question. the question is, "do you want to go racing?" It is a commitment. And you should give it 3 years before you decide if it is right for you. If you have a $50,000 car, sell it and get a $20,000 car -instant $30,000 budget. Most of us would kill (just a saying) for a 3 year $30,000 budget. If you don't have that much, well some people can race on 1/4 of that.

In the NE we have proven that we can and will help new drivers. I also believe that other areas can do the same. If you are in the midwest, FST is an alternative Just don't think it will be much cheaper to start from scratch.

Will FV evolve? Sure - Just put a vintage Vee up against a new(er) car (and if you are in the midwest,Vintage Vee is also an alternative. Just don't think it.........(deja vu))

We will either get a spec tire, or allow alternatives. We maybe even go to front disc brakes and rack and pinion, but it will not make you go faster. And isn't that the purpose of racing, to go as fast as you can with what you have?

John had it right - do the OWDE. spend time at a track with a FV owner, or by a car and autocross it.

But as an old commercial used to say "Try it, you'll like it.

ChrisZ

[Daryl DeArman]

A FV corners well over 1g. goes over 115 mph, stops incredibly well because it weighs 1/2 of what the brakes were designed for

Sell the class on what it gets right. Not on its performance. It is by far the slowest formula class. It corners reasonably well, but not as well as any other open wheel class. Braking, acceleration and top speed are abhorrent by almost any measure.

[jjgorski]

I wish people would stop saying it cost all this money per weekend to go racing. Would some one break down how they spend 1500 for a weekend. I spent less than 3000 this year with driving school and 4 race weekends. I didn't buy new tires don't stay in the most expensive hotel and mainly eat food at the track. I think that kind of money talk may scare away alot interested people reading posts on here.

[smsazzy]

I wish people would stop saying it cost all this money per weekend to go racing. Would some one break down how they spend 1500 for a weekend. I spent less than 3000 this year with driving school and 4 race weekends. I didn't buy new tires don't stay in the most expensive hotel and mainly eat food at the track. I think that kind of money talk may scare away alot interested people reading posts on here.

You have to figure in all the costs for the car.

For example, I typically have my engine rebuilt once per year.

Engine rebuild: $1200? (Price depends on builder and what is needed) Amortized out to maybe $150 on average? (assuming you run 9 weekends before a rebuild)

Tires: (You didn't buy any, but most of us do. I typically buy 1 set for every 3 majors minimum) $900 with tax, delivered to your door? $300/weekend

Crash Damage? Hope not, but figure in a contingency for that.

Gas to tow, unless you live next door to a track that has an abundance of races. What do most people get towing? <12mpg, at $2-3/gallon. How far away is the track? 200+ miles? More? That's another $75-100 round trip - per weekend.

Entry fee? Widely varies, but at least probably $250-400 on average, depending on the region/track. Sometimes much more.

Entry Fee: $300
Tires: $300
Engine Rebuild: $150
Towing: $75
Hotels?
Meals?
Race Gas or Av Gas? (about 10-15 gallons for a weekend, at $4 (AV) or $8+ (RG) - $40-$120
Crash Damage: ?
Test Days?
Annual Maintenance: (Brake shoes, replacing worn parts, battery, brake fluid, Rebuilding master cylinders, etc. - all divided by the number of races you run) Amount?

You are easily up over $1000. I always figured it is about $1000 per weekend for me to race.

[smsazzy]

I wish people would stop saying it cost all this money per weekend to go racing. Would some one break down how they spend 1500 for a weekend. I spent less than 3000 this year with driving school and 4 race weekends. I didn't buy new tires don't stay in the most expensive hotel and mainly eat food at the track. I think that kind of money talk may scare away alot interested people reading posts on here.

And by the way, $3000 divided by 4 races, is $750. Add a set of tires and an amortized engine rebuild, and you're right in line.

[bobs66440]

When I said $1000-$1500 per weekend I said that would be for a double regional. The entry fee alone is $600 at least. Add all the other stuff and I think you will be well over $1000...

For a single race at $300 for entry, I suppose if nothing goes wrong and you don't buy tires you can keep it under $1000.

Edit: apparently I was given inaccurate info. The doubles cost $300-$400, not $600 as I was led to believe. I apologize for any confusion.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I'll just throw this out here:

In 18 years, if FV stays the same, we will be racing an engine, front beam and transmission that was designed 100 years ago.

Spec tires, spec brakes, spec manifolds, etc. All great. But it is not going to get cheaper longterm with 100 year old parts.

In my mind this is why FV should evolve to FST (which should be called FV1600 IMHO)

Granted the FST parts are still old but most are still being manufactured and are a mouse click away.

[Jphoenix]

This is interesting, I just added up my average weekend costs and came up with similar, but different numbers. Reason for difference is that I only added up my actual weekend cash outlay, not amortized engine or tire costs. This because I've only overhauled my engine after two seasons, was stil running good, oil press and leak down healthy with 40.7 Hobbs hours on it. I'm using $1500 for overhaul, $300 for shipping, so that may be different, etc. Tires last me an entire season because I use AR's and I still consider myself a novice, having been racing only two seasons now, so my costs to will be similar to a new entrant.

Race fuel: 15 gals (I always do the 5 or 6 session TnT each weekend) $105
Oil changes every other weekend: $20 (redline not cheap, cost is really $40 but divided by 2)
RV fuel: $100
Entry fee: $300
TnT: entry fee $180

No hotel, so total is about $700 cash for a weekend of racing for me. I do get a lot of track time for that 700 because of all the TnT sessions.

Add in Steve's amortized engine and tire cost and the total is very similar to what Steve quotes.

Individual weekend configurations may vary, but it appears to me, regardless of skill level or type of car, the typical consumable cost of a race weekend is very similar for most drivers.

Some drivers will have double the tow cost, plus hotel, plus tires every weekend, plus you name it. Others will have less cost because they live 20 minutes from the track and go home every night (like I do when we race at pacific). But for an honest discussion of the cost of racing, I think Steve is being honest and up front about the cost of racing today.

On another note - when deciding what class to go racing in, I made my decision based on the cost of racing an FV vs. another entry level car like a CF. I'm still happy with my decision as I have a lot more to learn than I truly realized in the beginning.

But, if I had the opportunity to make that decision again, I would weigh more heavily the size of the normal, average run group in the class I was considering - in the area I plan to race in.

The FV run group here in conference in a typical race is between 2 and 4 cars, with extremes of 1 and maybe I saw 5 on the track with me one time (always more up in BC, so that's my mistake not going up there like I should).

There is however a very constant-size group of very dedicated and competitive CF's here with at least 4 at every race that I've been to and for a novice, while the CF may be a stretch for some, the experience gained from running with a healthy run group will greatly increase learning and progress. It's taken me two years to understand that - while all you experienced guys are saying, yes we know and we say that about a million times on this forum.

I'm still having fun with my vee, and learning, albeit slowly, and plan to run it for at least another season before moving up to a different class - and that will be a class with a healthy and good sized run group, perhaps with wings, but certainly no doors.

[smsazzy]

In my mind this is why FV should evolve to FST (which should be called FV1600 IMHO)

Granted the FST parts are still old but most are still being manufactured and are a mouse click away.

The 1600 was still designed in the mid-1960's. So, regardless of when said part was manufactured, you are still dealing with parts that are 50+ years old, vs. working with parts that are 55+ years old. So that argument is pretty thin.

The fact that *some* parts are still made is good, since that means they are somewhat cheaper, they are still old and highly obsolete. Don't forget, the case is still the same too.

The answer for the class, in my opinion, is not to "upgrade" to a powerplant that is *only* 50 years old, instead of 55.

FST is a class today, by all means - go for it. That window has passed though for FV. The answer in the future is a NEW powerplant or the class stays as is and eventually ceases.

[bobs66440]

While a new/different/cheaper powerplant would indeed help, from what I've heard/read, the biggest deterrent is the cost of entry fees and tires. And that is what I'm considering most in my decision. Having an unshaved spec tire is a huge step in the right direction in my opinion.

[BLS]

I received an email to an SCCA survey for a FV spec tire this morning. I'm not sure who is on the list to receive these, but be sure you make your opinion known. It takes less than 5 minutes to fill out the survey.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

The 1600 was still designed in the mid-1960's. So, regardless of when said part was manufactured, you are still dealing with parts that are 50+ years old, vs. working with parts that are 55+ years old. So that argument is pretty thin.

The fact that *some* parts are still made is good, since that means they are somewhat cheaper, they are still old and highly obsolete. Don't forget, the case is still the same too.

The answer for the class, in my opinion, is not to "upgrade" to a powerplant that is *only* 50 years old, instead of 55.

FST is a class today, by all means - go for it. That window has passed though for FV. The answer in the future is a NEW powerplant or the class stays as is and eventually ceases.

Stephen,

I really don't care how old the parts are, by design, as long as they are readily available and at a good price point. The internal combustion has been around what 125 years, so should we be looking for another design? There is no thin argument because I said in my original post that the design is dated.

Not just some parts but pretty much all parts for a FST are available through CIP1 or a similar web site. I just had to buy a new counter weighted crank for my FST and it was $220.00 thats pretty affordable. I bet a Vee crank is 2-3 times that much.

Not trying to start an argument here but The FV community can't agree on anything so I don't think a new power plant is in FV's future.

[Stumpthumper]

As a guy who has chimed in before and will likely chose FV in the future based on cost and rungroup numbers, the problem really seems to be a reluctance to change. Sure, change costs, and when you are in the lowest cost class, any costs hurt more (guys running Formula Amazing can typically swing an investment of several thousand a little easier). However, when new guys like me look around, for only a little more money we can enter a different class that has better future proofing.
Without enthusiasm to progress, there will never be a consensus and nothing will change. Maybe a manufacturer would step in and help defray costs for an upgrade, but how can anything like that be considered when no one even knows what to change. Every idea put forward in this thread has been met with resistance and reasons why it's a bad idea. And different ways of selling the class aren't progress.
Figure out what needs to change and then figure out how to make it happen...rather than assuming there is no way and only looking for easy things to change. Just my $.03

[jhenn4716]

Mike V put up one of the top FV motors in the country and was asking 10k for it but to my knowledge it didn't sell. The market dictated that 10k was too much for an FV motor

I bought that motor, it's in my car now.

[Amon]

I bought that motor, it's in my car now.

So how did the motor run and was it everything you expected?

[jhenn4716]

So how did the motor run and was it everything you expected?

Terran went a 2:39 at RA with it... it's nice

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Terran went a 2:39 at RA with it... it's nice

Wow, that a second under the track record for FV.

[Bill Bonow]

See Scott, absolute scientific proof that if you buy a $10k motor, you will go fast.

[budawe]

MOFOCO has std. 40hp cranks for $99 on their website. While not lightened, I don't believe the welded FST cranks are either. New 40hp heads are not available but there are many cores still around. New 40hp rods are now available via the rule change last year. All the bearings, cams, gears and other parts are interchangeable with the 1600 and still available new.

Concerning resistance to change I would think most vee folks can't spend a lot of money upgrading. I think the Honda upgrade is nearly $15K, which is way beyond what vee folks could do.

The decline in participation is well documented along all classes and vees are still doing better than most.

[jhenn4716]

Wow, that a second under the track record for FV.

I must really need an eye exam, it wasn't a 2:49.. a bit slower then that. While I do have a Speedsport motor in my car, I certainly didn't spend $10k for it. Terran did drive it at the June Sprints last year after I had a little mishap during qualifying.

[jhenn4716]

See Scott, absolute scientific proof that if you buy a $10k motor, you will go fast.

With that kind of science, I could prove the worlds flat too

[Drake]

I'm going to throw this out there and see everyones opinion. What if everyone started taking our cars out to local Autocrosses and let others drive them. I know there is an element of risk but I can't think of any better way to drive excitement then to get new people behind the wheel.

[Spengo]

That's a good idea. I often bring a friend along to kart races for a second pair of hands in the pits then let them have a go after the racing is done. Even at road races we do a "buddy drive" session at the very end. Its just slow paced lead/follow lapping with a regular driver in front but for people who have never driven a shifter kart before especially on a big fullsize track it is pretty intense. I don't know if I would let randoms drive but if you've got a friend you know can handle it absolutely do that.