Formula Race Promotions Launching new FIA Spec Formula 4 car

[S Lathrop]

One thing to remember is that when you have "one cash register racing", spec racing, you have a spec entry price. There is nothing stopping you from buying a $10,000 FC and running the F2000 series. Or running a Chrosle 35 / Honda in F1600 pro series. You won't have that option in F4.

Given that it seems that about half of the F1600 and F2000 are masters, maybe F1600 and F2000 will be more attractive to masters with fewer kids trying to learn their skill. I feel that the presents of a lot of masters is a very positive thing for kids getting into the sport.

The spec series may just be a contest to see who is best able to adapt to the car and who is the beat among a bunch of kids who are just starting out. Who among them is setting a standard that anyone can compare to those who have gone before them. Would Skyler or Sam be the drivers they are today with out going up against the old masters?

[provamo]

is this an East Coast thing?

[dalz]

Is it in Indycar's plans to have this replace USF2000 on The Ladder? If not, it has as much of a prayer as...Formula Lites.

[provamo]

Is it in Indycar's plans to have this replace USF2000 on The Ladder? If not, it has as much of a prayer as...Formula Lites.

the rules of engagement on the lower rungs of THE LADDER are soon to be adjusted
follow www.usf2000.com

[rickb99]

Many of you are jumping to conclusions based on incomplete information. Apparently the cars cost less than $60k ready to race including engine, data, dampers, paddle shifted sequential gearbox, carbon tub, etc. ....Nathan

How do you figure that?

Basic car is $51,000
Paddle Shift and data package $7.000

That's not including spares and the etcetera's for $58,000. So, what $2,000 engine are you putting in there?

Seems like we've reached the point where any car manufacturer can come up with a new design then talk some sanctioning body into making them a new series. Next thing you know we'll have the Hyundai Challenge on the path to Le Mans!

We've had F1, F2 and F3 around almost since the founding of the FIA so, why did we NEED F4 when FF and FC were working pretty good all over the world?

Somebody just wanted a new way to go after RICH DADDY'S money.

[Peter Olivola]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Racing, especially below the elite level, has never been a legitimate sport. It has always been a participant subsidized pursuit of passion. Thinking it was ever anything else is a false memory.

Somebody just wanted a new way to go after RICH DADDY'S money.

[Steve Bamford]

How do you figure that?

Basic car is $51,000
Paddle Shift and data package $7.000

That's not including spares and the etcetera's for $58,000. So, what $2,000 engine are you putting in there?

To keep things clear so no one adds incorrect info:

Car is supposed to come in under 60 grand with everything including data, engine, trans, etc.

As always spares are extra.

[Gordy]

Don't holler at me if I did the math wrong, but I came up with just under 41,500 US for the car with the data/paddle shift option as a roller.

The car is listed at 33,000 Euros and the option package at 5,000 Euros, which in this mornings dollar equivalent is approx 41,440.

[Steve Bamford]

Simply telling you what I am told from Mygale North America who are selling the cars here in North America have quoted me & I have ordered.

What you are looking at is the European site.

I am trying to simply keep the facts straight for this conversation.

[gfastr]

Simply telling you what I am told from Mygale North America who are selling the cars here in North America have quoted me & I have ordered.

What you are looking at is the European site.

I am trying to simply keep the facts straight for this conversation.

So ,how many classes will you be racing in 2016? :-0

[Monty M]

Car is supposed to come in under 60 grand with everything including data, engine, trans, etc.

As always spares are extra.

This is correct.

[Steve Bamford]

So ,how many classes will you be racing in 2016? :-0

As many as my crew chief will allow me

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Simply telling you what I am told from Mygale North America who are selling the cars here in North America have quoted me & I have ordered.

When is delivery? It'll be interesting....

[nulrich]

Seems like we've reached the point where any car manufacturer can come up with a new design then talk some sanctioning body into making them a new series. Next thing you know we'll have the Hyundai Challenge on the path to Le Mans!

The FIA F4 concept was the brainchild of Gerhard Berger when he was working on developing a common worldwide standard for a development class, primarily targeted at kids coming out of karting. The manufacturers certainly had input into the technical regulations, but it was by no means their idea. There are four active chassis constructors: Tatuus, for the Italian, German, and Russian/Finish/Estonian series; Dome, for the Japanese series; Mygale for the Australian, Chinese, UK, and Spanish series; and Signatech for the South American series.

All the chassis meet F3 safety standards, so they are MUCH safer than most current development classes. I haven't seen one in person, but they are also apparently quite large inside, so bigger guys can fit easily (and safely).

There are five different engines used, and by the FIA regulations they have to last at least 10,000 km and cost no more than 9,500 euro.

We've had F1, F2 and F3 around almost since the founding of the FIA so, why did we NEED F4 when FF and FC were working pretty good all over the world?

I guess you and I have a different definition of "pretty good!"

Somebody just wanted a new way to go after RICH DADDY'S money.

Actually seems like the opposite, since these cars are 1/2 to 2/3 the cost of a new F1600 or F2000. For under $60k you can buy a car capable of winning a championship. And, given the technical regulations they should be cheaper and easier to maintain and allow for true "lads and dads" teams. Personal feelings and investment aside, this seems like a positive, and inevitable, development.

[a. pettipas]

An ex-F1 driver thinks F4 is the way to go, can't possibly be wrong, he won F1 races for chrissakes!... let's go all in!

Blow up the F2000 Championship series so F2000 Canada can thrive like in the good old days (Americans: the USD/CAD exchange rate is working for you, currently)... NJ and Pitt or Mosport and Mt. Tremblant?... no real thought required there

[provamo]

and these races going to be run in conjunction with.............?

[Steve Bamford]

and these races going to be run in conjunction with.............?

If there are 15 plus cars I would imagine they will run on their own grid. I found it interesting that it was announced as 7 weekend, 21 race championship. That means unless they change F2000 from 14 races to 21 that they either run on their own or with F1600. One of the reasons people run with FRP is for one class track time so I am guessing this is the plan.

I can't speak for anyone in the series, this is just what I am guessing.

[a. pettipas]

.

[problemchild]

For the SCCA official-types out there, is the car legal for FS and/or does SCCA have any plans to include it initially as a sub-class within an existing National class? Thanks!

[Dennis McCarthy]

We have a lot of serious racers already heavily invested in cars and spares.

We had manufacturers step up to the plate in the last few years and produce new cars that seem to work pretty well.

Someone has come up with a better formula which will obsolete everything so let's scrap it all and start over.

Let everyone sell their cars and parts at 50 cents on the dollar so we can all have whizzy dumbed down cars.

After we finish licking our resale wounds we can all go buy a car for new $60K give or take a few bucks.

Shipping is probably free so no more cost there either.

Maybe a hard street radial so we don't need the additional 3 sets of wheels either.

Only the real serious guys will bother to spend for the spare engine, gearbox uprights, suspension, noses, wings, ECUs and harnesses.

Of course only the front runners will have to pay to have the car torn apart, blueprinted to the max and put back together.

Showroom Stock where everyone ran the same car was always so much cheaper.

It will be all much better and cheaper racing which will attract more racers.

Isn't that how FE, F-First, F600, F1000, were all sold to the masses.

None of them diluted the pool or are garage queens.

What could possibly go wrong.....

[John LaRue]

There has been nothing put before the FSRAC or CRB concerning this car for Club racing to date.

A few questions:

• Does the price listed include shipping and taxes landed?
• Are there options or upgrades that are available or permitted? i.e. data, dampers, wheels... if so, what are those costs?

John

[Ron B.]

If there are 15 plus cars I would imagine they will run on their own grid. I found it interesting that it was announced as 7 weekend, 21 race championship. That means unless they change F2000 from 14 races to 21 that they either run on their own or with F1600. One of the reasons people run with FRP is for one class track time so I am guessing this is the plan.

I can't speak for anyone in the series, this is just what I am guessing.

From the FIA F4 website:

Races will be held as support races at major national events

Is the major National Series with which FIA F4 will run the FF1600/F2000/Atlantic FRP events/schedule?

[nulrich]

I'm not sure if this series is sanctioned by the FIA or how that works, so maybe they aren't going to follow the FIA regulations exactly, but here are the applicable sections:

2.7 Modifications to car design:
2.7.1 General
The complete car is divided into three types of part.
Type 1: These parts must be supplied by the manufacturer and used exactly as supplied. Repairs may be carried out only by the manufacturer.
Type 2: These parts are Type 1 parts with specific restrictions. Only the modifications indicated in the homologation may be carried out. Repairs are allowed only in the range described in the homologation.
Type 3: These parts are unrestricted, provided that they are used as designed by the manufacturer and do not fulfil any additional function.
The adding of colour or thin adhesive film up to a thickness of 0.5 mm is not considered as a modification, provided that the colour or film fulfils only an optical function.
2.7.2 Standard mounting parts
Standard mounting parts, such as screws, nuts, bolts, washers and lock washers, are considered as Type 3 parts unless specifically mentioned in the homologation. They may be replaced with equivalent or superior standard parts.
The thread type, size, length and pitch must remain the same.
The use of locking wire is permitted.
Any type of standard mounting part which has an influence on the car set-up is considered as a Type 1 part unless specifically mentioned in the homologation.
Only Type 3 washers may be removed.
Washers may be added only for facilitating and improving mechanical installation. They may influence the set-up of the car only when specifically mentioned in the homologation.
2.7.3 Protections
Heat protections, mechanical protections (such as abrasion protection or tape) and protections for driver comfort may be added, provided that their sole function is the protection of the relevant element and unless specifically mentioned in the homologation.
2.7.4 Bodywork
The modification of bodywork parts and bodywork supports is allowed only to ensure proper installation despite manufacturing tolerances.
2.7.5 Quick couplings
The use of quick couplings for brake, clutch and fuel lines is allowed, provided that FIA-approved dry couplings are used.

I'm not sure where Type 1, 2, or 3 is indicated for each part. Clearly you can't touch the bodywork or the wings, the profile of which is specified in the regulations.

The data system is spec (provided by the manufacturer) and the sensors are restricted as follows:

8.5.2 Sensors
The chassis may be equipped with only the following sensors:
- Acceleration (1 3-axial sensor)
- Wheel speeds front axle (2 sensors)
- Steering angle (1 sensor)
- Brake pressure front/rear (2 sensors)
- Lap timer/trigger (1 sensor)
- Gear (1 sensor)
- Throttle pedal or valve (1 sensor) only in case of a mechanical throttle

The dampers are restricted, but I don't see anything that limits how they are valved, or would prevent a team from carrying several sets of dampers (but you can do that now in any comparable series):

10.7 Suspension damper:
10.7.1 Only conventional hydraulic, single tube dampers with one piston and maximum two-way adjustment are permitted.
10.7.2 Damper fluid may be pressurised.
10.7.3 Damper characteristics may vary only as a function of damper piston speed, created only by suspension movement. Any other variation of damper characteristics, such as those which vary as a function of position, frequency or acceleration, is prohibited.
10.7.4 The use of blow-off valves, inertia valves, external electronic inputs, the storage of energy or any hydraulic connections between dampers is prohibited.
10.7.5 Only one type of damper for front and rear is permitted (except for top eye).
10.7.6 The damper must comply with the following specification:
- Stroke: no less than 40 mm and no more than 50 mm
- Maximum outer diameter: 55 mm
- Compatible with 36 mm ID springs
- Optional external canister with max. 170 mm length and 50 mm diameter
- Fully extended length between pickup points 310 mm
- Bolt diameter of fixation points 8 mm or 5/16"
10.7.7 The use of any kind of bump stop is prohibited.

I don't really see room for any sort of suspension development given that all the suspension parts must be as supplied and there is minimum weights for many of them (including complete upright assembly and wheels). I guess you can adjust geometry within defined limits, camber, caster, toe, etc, as well as wing angles (maybe?) and ride heights.

The engines are sealed, so no room for development there.

It's a carbon tub car with spec parts that can't be modified, so I can't see how "blueprinting" the chassis other than prepping it well would make any difference whatsoever.

Definitely a spec series. Not my thing, but I see the appeal.

[2BWise]

What rulebook will the cars be governed to? What kind of development is allowed? Can I build my own wings or valve my own dampers?

[Steve Bamford]

As many have pointed out here that really the last thing we need is another class. Well here comes another one and there is no way that this will not affect F1600 & F2000 numbers in some negative way.

Reid you asked how to make F1600 cheaper, here you go as now there will likely be F1600's that run up front available if F4 takes off like the promoters are expecting.

The value of my investment in F2000 & F1600 for sure have declined over this announcement. After all this I still decided to proceed with ordering an F4. Why some may wonder....because currently I haven't found a better run group then Formula Race Promotions for track time and high level of competition. I want to continue to be part of that next year. If there are only 5 F4 cars running then I will run F1600 & F2000 or where ever the better competition level is. One thing I don't want to be doing though is deciding in April next year I should have run F4 because there is a 20 car plus grid and have to wait months or longer to get a car due to demand.

[Westroc]

As is his usual style Nulrich has provided unbiased info. Before spouting there was an article describing the F4 car fairly well in RacecarEngineering about a year ago (or so) and others like Martin Brundle make some very valid points which for once make a lot of sense. So does Reid.
As far as selling equipment for 50 cents on the dollar. Hell where you been? That is fact and has been for years now!
As to talking to Karting Dad's they are far less receptive to ANY car w/o wings because the kids tell them they want only a winged car period. It will be interesting to see how this goes but I'll bet the reception will be better than most believe it will.

[RSS]

Whoa whoa whoa who said 50cents on the dollar we where offering 20! 30 if its a really nice car but you have to get in on this offer quick before all the other pro F2000 cars flood the market.

[problemchild]

Other than new Mygale and Spectrum F1600 cars being devalued, I see no reason why anybody's current cars would be devalued ...... unless they keep publicly complaining that their cars are now devalued.

The sky is not falling!

[Purple Frog]

As John said there is no request at this time to make it a SCCA class. There are ways it could just as FM did over 20 years ago.
As to running FS with it. It depends. The SCCA and FIA don't always agree on some points. We will have to see the car.
Clearly if a bunch of them start running a lot of regionals, there may be some momentum. I see that as at least a year away, if not more.

In a conversation with Bob Wright yesterday, he was not sure FRP would strictly follow the FIA regs. FRP will run the Mygale chassis only. If it takes off there could be a hp bump in the future using the same powerplant/drive train.

I understand completely Steve stepping up rapidly to the counter. Teams will want to start testing.

It does mirror Reid's dream car from another thread.

It some ways it reminds me of when the original FM came into being. Close to FC performance but not quite. Safe. Cheaper than FC. Spec. Appeals to a certain demographic. FM in those days did not kill FC. But it did provide first rides for folks like our own Coop.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

As a team owner with a vested interest in F2000 cars, here is my take-

*Car is a no brainer, it is everything you would want out of a junior formula car in 2015 and beyond.

*Paying north of 100k for F2000 cars is ridiculous, if they were 60k like they should be this car probably never happens here

*Unless you have a monster budget with tons of testing, 90% of drivers need more help with coaching and optimizing the package they have as opposed to developing cars. IE, "I'm 3 seconds off, we should change shock valving"

My inventory probably just dropped in value by 30% with this announcement, but hey, that's the way it goes. Either keep up with the trends or get left behind, and this car seems like a good trend to me

[clint]

My take on this car is that I will have once they have been proven out. Its more car for the money than 95% of the cars in SCCA or any other organization in my opinion. Years back when the FE came out I wanted one! Then........the price doubled and they priced it out of the game. With this car available I think it will only be a matter of time before it depletes some classes.

[SpacemanSpiff]

I'm reminded of the dad that wanted his kid to take the next step a couple weeks ago. I think I'd even suggested arrive and driving these in Europe, rather than FF in the US. If your goal is the next step, doing well in these here puts you on the same plane as doing so in Europe (roughly).

Also, cool looking cars with bells and whistles have additional benefits off track. If you're looking for sponsorship to pay for your road to wherever, I'd imagine one of these will be more appealing to potential sponsors, more eye catching if taken to events, etc.

Lost in the discussion of heavy wheels and uprights is that my understanding is that's where FF started out too. Not saying it's right, or that spec racing is the answer (not my cup of tea), but I don't know that $1000 uprights at low level racing make sense either.

[Bill Elder]

CAMS is the only sanctioning body, but the Formula Ford Association is continuing independently to run National and State championships.

Well, FIA associated one - there is the equivalent of nasa here too.

If anyone does buy one, check the fuel lines. Mygale made a bit of a comical error there...on some of the cars at least!

What rulebook will the cars be governed to? What kind of development is allowed? Can I build my own wings or valve my own dampers?

Answered earlier methinks.

Wings don't deliver much, F-BeeEmm are more effective, you'd be up before the stewards locally if you showed up with something other than the spec.

[dalz]

and these races going to be run in conjunction with.............?

The only question. If it's not with IndyCar or USRRC, it AIN'T. F-Lites can be declared stillborn, as predicted. There's no way F4 will make a remote ripple without major-league support. NOBODY CARES! I haven't seen any press releases saying pro racing is on board. Being a Euro success means nothing over here either i.e. F-BMW, Fran-Am, soccer, speedos. Remember American Touring Car? If you don't, be happy.

[dalz]

the rules of engagement on the lower rungs of THE LADDER are soon to be adjusted
follow www.usf2000.com

I think that's great, but I'm under no illusion they suddenly care about us. IndyCar just wants better photos of a bigger field barreling into turn 1.

[TimW]

There's no way F4 will make a remote ripple without major-league support. NOBODY CARES! I haven't seen any press releases saying pro racing is on board.

Unless this is Ford's way at getting back at Honda and then works to play ball with Mazda in the ladder. I reckon this will get interesting.

The reality of this, as stated earlier, is that this is the revisioning and updating of the original tenets of Formula Ford, lower cost commodity parts, close competition driver development series. While its obviously constrained in many ways, I would not call it spec. There are multiple manufacturers. Manufacturers can develop their own geometry, damping, etc no? so you could see one chassis emerging in what is a much much more restrictive formula. Arguably this should have been done 35 years ago...

That being said, I'm sad they chose to have wings, but I get why. If a kart is the only place to race mechanical grip vehicles, that is a loss to me.

The MSA has recapitalized the class 3(?) times in the last 20 years, Kent->Zetec->Duratec->short lived ecoboost with wings and have given up and are joining the F4. Hard to see how FF comes to matter anymore in the grand scheme of motor racing things for much longer once the MSA has moved on.

That being said, I think its time for a pilgrimage to the Festival or the Hayes Trophy because someday it won't even be much of a club race anymore.

[nulrich]

Just to clarify, the FIA rules are not "spec" except that you cannot modify a homologated chassis. There are currently four manufacturers, but the individual series have all picked a single supplier, which means each series is spec. USF4 has selected Mygale, for example, and you couldn't run a chassis from Tatuus or Dome in their series.

Effectively the constructors compete with each other for the contract for each series rather than for individual or team sales.

Someone could always decide to open up a particular series to multiple manufacturers or even base a more open set of rules on the homologated chassis and safety cell while allowing development of aero or suspension.

I may be wrong, but I don't see the USF4 series drawing from existing F2000 competitors. At 160 hp the cars will be considerably slower than F2000 cars, especially at aero tracks. In F2000 most drivers own their own cars and would be reluctant to sell them at a loss and buy new cars that are slower.

This will be much more attractive to the typical F1600 competitor, though, where chassis tend to be owned by teams and most drivers (or parents) see it only as a temporary step in their progression to becoming Formula 1 champions.

Nathan

[rickb99]

For the SCCA official-types out there, is the car legal for FS .....

Well as a point of reference on that, the Fran Am cars were NOT SCCA legal due to the roll bar design. I know a guy that wanted to bring one in to SCCA and he couldn't get it homologated.

So, you never know till you try.

[Purple Frog]

Continuing with my stream of thoughts from post #69.
There is the possibility of multiple F4 series popping up in the US of A. Which would cause a dilution of entries, and possibly confusion if each series declares its own rules.

That is where SCCA pro could have some power. Since they are a member of ACCUS FIA. If they come out from there door slammer bent, they could be the big player. Pro could team up with FIA and solidify a set of rules... They could create a set of rules to cover all 50 states, cutting some potential confusion. If they did then i could see an adoption of the class by Club if the class survives a year or two of pro.

[HazelNut]

I personally think the series is missing their target demographic here. Looking back to the 90's/2000's when these classes were flourishing, the paddocks were flooded with people like myself now, 30-40 somethings who were fast and had some cash to blow. Not kids. At that time, I was 20 or so and was certainly in the minority.

BINGO. My experience is the same.