Got the first Formula Vee

[G.Rossman]

Drove from Indy to PA today...lots of driving. Just got the trailer and car backed into the garage and left around 630am this morning to start. Got several looks when we stopped for food and gas...and a very enthusiastic thumbs up while driving.

Auto Dynamics built about 1965. I will have more details coming soon with prior owners etc. I am . ing to try and find out the original color and paint it to match. Needs to be cleaned up so I am going to pressure wash it to get the grease that has built up over time off. Trailer needs to be rewired and may swap the lights to get it up to snuff. Body needs some relairs and a wind screen. Previous owner had cooling ducts on each side but they are gone...was that after market? Should I cover the holes with fiberglass? Photos coming soon. Will be looking for a lot of information as time goes on here.

Seat needs mounted / repair...etc. I will need to make a complete list and get to it. First job is to clean it off some and go from there.

[S Lathrop]

My first race car was an Autodynamics of that vintage.

Back then we ran the fan and it was operative. The generator was in place but it did not have to operate. Some years later it was permissible to "gut" the generator. The Autodynamics was large enough under the engine compartment to allow for the 40 HP fan housing. You will want to find a 36 hp engine fan. The 40 hp fan makes a lot of noise at high engine rpm. I have been blacked flag for noise with a 40 hp fan.

Droop limiting the rear suspension with cables or Z bars was just coming into use. The tires you will be using for the car today will be better than what we used then so you will need to think about how you setup the rear.

Have fun with you project.

[BWAutosport]

Looking forward to photos!

I too, last year, rescued a 65 Autodynamics from PA.
Seems that some re-work has been done to my chassis - roll bar added, some structural members front rear replaced/moved - detailed photos of basically the entire frame, rear suspension, etc. would be really beneficial.

The P.O. had disassembled, sand-blasted, and left it in almost as many parts as you can (though it still rolled) when I got to it, so, a decent amount of re-construction is ahead of us. Congrats on the find!

[G.Rossman]

First few I took to get started. Figuring out how to get pictures up.

[BWAutosport]

Excellent! Your bodywork looks to be in better shape than ours, our nose has been broken a few times, it seems. Link to an album of photos when we brought the car home is below.

http://imgur.com/a/PF7GU

[Albatross]

Seems to me there were several earlier Formula Vees when I first raced at Lime Rock Park in 1963. Yours look more recent. Also, Bob Cornish owned a Formula Vee reputed to be quite old. Its name was "Patunia". Don't know where it's at presently, but suspect it's alive and well sitting quietly... Anyone care to comment?

[G.Rossman]

Seems to me their were several earlier Formula Vees when I first raced at Lime Rock Park in 1963. Yours look more recent. Also, Bob Cornish owned a Formula Vee reputed to be quite old. Its name was "Patunia". Don't know where it's at presently, but suspect it's alive and well sitting quietly... Anyone care to comment?

****my*****

Posted with my phone after 14 hours of driving. On my tablet now. Everyonce in a while I get on my pc and use a real keyboard.

[Trevor]

Welcome to the club! Looks like your car might be a 1964 Mk I like mine. You can tell the earlier cars apart because the front pivot point on the suspension is located a couple of inches behind the firewall. On the later cars they moved the the pivot point forward so it was in line with the firewall. Here is a photo of my car. -Trevor

[G.Rossman]

I had been told 1964 as well but maybe built 1965? Could be a late last of the MK1 run?
Grabbed a jack for the trailer. Didnt have the castor in stock. Right now I have to use a jack stand on the front to hold it up. In the evenings this weekend I am going to take the body off. Pics to come of that and I will get more of the suspension for comparison.

[G.Rossman]

Checked the oil and it looks brand new. Pulled the engine cover and front body panel off. What needs to be done to remove the sides so I can really hose them down to get old grease off? I did not see an oil filter, I am new the VW and air cooled so am I just missing it? I followed some of the lines to get my bearings. The oil pressure sender is not hook to anything on the engine right now. The battery looks to be like an old style battery can upgrade this to something else? Also found the right front shock the lower nut is not tightened down. It was a tight fit, I have long legs, when I sat in it. Anyone running a removabke steerung wheel? That would help. My knees rest against the bar under the steering wheel. Still has the fuel tank, came with an expired fuel cell. Do you mount these in the same location as the tank? Not going to bother for solo racing but just curious. The clutch pedal seems to stick and I think the throttle wqs but then saw no return spring on the carb so I need to find one of those for it.

Trailer needs a total rewire as well. Anyone use a coating to stop rust? Bought a jack for the front but it won't go through the bottom hole it is too wide so I am probably going to get stuck mounting one to the side that is universal.

[G.Rossman]

In the above photos there is a shot of a piece of metal...it was on the floor pan and I have no idea what it came off of.

[S Lathrop]

Sorry to say this, but the roll bar absolutely has to be replaced. If the rest of the welding is as bad as what I can see in the photo of the engine day, you owe it to the little guy in the seat to have a pro take a look for you.

[budawe]

It appears that someone converted the car to zero roll monoshock. That is an issue for vintage and will require you return the car to a double shock, and likely, a z-bar system. Maybe the fellow who posted his car picture can send you a shot of the original rear suspension.

[G.Rossman]

Sorry to say this, but the roll bar absolutely has to be replaced. If the rest of the welding is as bad as what I can see in the photo of the engine day, you owe it to the little guy in the seat to have a pro take a look for you.

Well that is a bummer.

[G.Rossman]

It appears that someone converted the car to zero roll monoshock. That is an issue for vintage and will require you return the car to a double shock, and likely, a z-bar system. Maybe the fellow who posted his car picture can send you a shot of the original rear suspension.

I did not realize it had been modified so much. So is this thing a lost cause? Should I ebay it and try to get mymoney back out of it and just wait to buy a "kit" and build one over winter?


Primarily the goal is autox with the car, I do not have my wheel to wheel license and that is what the previous owner did with it is my understanding. I would have liked to have it Formula Vee specs though.

[S Lathrop]

Well that is a bummer.

Just have a good welder look at it. It may not be a big issue to make right.

If I remember correctly your chassis is not welded but the joints are made with a special brazing alloy. This is a perfectly good welding method and in England is approved for aviation, where it was developed in WWII.

The issue is that it is not brazing as we know it in this country and there are not a lot of people who can do it or have the welding alloys necessary to repair what you have.

Given that issue, I may know someone who can to any welding you may need. That is close to Indy. I may still have some rod as well.

[G.Rossman]

I can have the welds looked at if not too costly and you know someone good to do it. Kind of a downer right now hoping to get some good news on the car. Body needs work I planned to work on that over winter. The gauges I want to replace and run something nicer. Upgrade some wires going to batteries and put in a sealed motorcycle battery...something small. It will be 12v though. Needs a new togfle switch and push start switch. Electric cut off switch feels sturdy right now.

[G.Rossman]

Lathrop,

I looked on my way out the door this morning and think I see what you mean about the splice now. I didn't know something had been removed and then that bar welded in on each side. I have no idea how sturdy that is. I got information this was done on AD to make engine removal easier.

To me once the chasis is cut...I'm not sure I can get it back to original.

[BWAutosport]

G.Rossman,

Some good news first: the car seems to be in pretty decent shape. The body work, while not painted pretty, is still all there without any big cracks. You've still got the original fuel tank, which I wish mine had, for period correctness. (I don't know that I would use it though, even with a custom ATL/FuelSafe bladder, since it hangs outside the chassis and is rather unprotected - but keep in mind, I am wheel-to-wheel racing) The original gauge cluster is still there, which, I would recommend keeping and just installing new gauges to fit it. I'm jealous of the car - especially if you have log books to go with it. Wish mine was in the same condition. Even with the roll bar and suspension changes, it's a great car to restore back to a vintage racer. Perhaps it's a bit more work than you were hoping for in a Solo car, but that's sort of the lay of the land with these old vintage racers. I've feverishly searched Craigslist for months, can't believe I missed this car!

I'm not at my shop right now, and didn't take more photos over the weekend, but there is a shot of my rear suspension in the album I posted, I'll include below. Since you're not planning to run vintage, but rather Solo, the conversion to zero-roll isn't a big deal - I suspect it's allowed per your rules (never ran Solo). But, vintage racers have to keep the original suspension setup. It seems like the original pick-ups are still present, so it shouldn't be too difficult to restore down the road, should you sell it.

While my car retains the original rear suspension, with z-bar, it was modified in a similar fashion to make removal of some of the upper structural members in the rear-end removable, for easier access to the engine/gearbox (the bolted on cross member in the photo running between the rear shocks, for example; z-bar not shown in the photo). We're likely going to re-do that on our car, because the material used isn't quite heavy enough, and has been crushed somewhat over time.

I'll add this link as well, to an album of another 1964 Autodynamics Vee, with a lot of great photos of the chassis/car. Perhaps this is another board member's?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/307027...57629536918961

[provamo]

forget about originality

that car never had a zero roll rear OR 4-1 exhaust for starters

just get it safe to auto-x and have at it!!!!

[budawe]

You've got a lot of good parts and basically a complete car. I agree and suggest that you consider autocrossing. The rear suspension would be fine and the frame clean up would be more simple. No fuel cell or fire system required either.

You would have to run in Cmod, a class that includes FF and vees with larger seriously prepped engines. But if just want to have fun, this car could provide a decent platform.

[G.Rossman]

So if I threw vintage out I would be in cmod? What about this splice job issue? I wouldnt mind having the stock setup so I could have more information base on it...like apex here. My first intent was autox but then I really got into the history. If it was back to stock would it be in cmod still?

[G.Rossman]

Some more photos of areas being discussed.

[provamo]

just run the damn thing until you fall in love with it and want to restore it even there is no financial sense to that

or not

have fun!

[budawe]

Unfortunately, there is only one place for vees and that's in cmod. Since it's open wheel and not production based, it has to go into a mod class and given the engine size and mods the c is your option. There will be plenty of fun and track time but not many trophies.

There will be fewer demands on the frame running the zero roll but if you plan to go vintage, a frame rebuild would be in order.

Other than an occasional rare car, there isn't any financial logic in restorations. If you enjoy doing the work yourself, go for it. If you're trying to get on with it for the least amount of cash, buy some thing closer to track ready.

There's a lot of folks who will help you with info here and we'll do what we can.

[G.Rossman]

Whats it going to take to make it safe? Roll bar needs to be fixed? I can't justify dumping a ton into it like has been mentioned...restored what is the value? Lesson learned I guess, I could see restoring it but I have never welded so I would do no better.


Should I run a fan, oil filter, and any hardware store food for the throttle return spring? Also advised the carb and intake are not performance models so I will need those.

Still kicking ideas around. It is inside and on the trailer so I guess no major rush I just do nkt want to lose interst in it before I get it going. Wish it had not been hacked on.

[BWAutosport]

As provamo said earlier, get out and race it. The suspension, carb, and intake aren't deal breakers; just changes made over time. Performance is something you can worry about when you get seat time. Most people would probably just like to see the roll bar fixed up first.

Your friendly SCCA Solo/AutoX people could likely refer you to a few people familiar with Vees in your area, and I think almost any racer would lend a hand to get it safe for you. You may need to add a currently dated safety harness, as I don't see one in the pictures previously posted.

The VSCDA operates in your area, and they have a race at Blackhawk Farms Raceway this weekend, that's about 5 hours northwest of Indianapolis. They may be a good resource for you to find another vintage Vee owner near you that can offer some on-site advice as well. Whether you go to the race or not, I'm sure there are vintage Vees near you.http://www.vscda.org/

Vees won't drive a large $$ on the market when completely restored, compared to other open wheel marques/classes. But that's because they're also not terribly expensive cars to race and maintain, compared to other things. I'd love to pay Vee prices for my British stuff...

[crypt0zink]

Excellent recommendation to come out to Blackhawk this weekend (June 19 – 21), there should a few Auto Dynamics racing this weekend and a large field of 30 vintage Formula Vees racing. It's a great event and group of drivers. Seeing what's possible could give you inspiration to join the VSCDA and our group of Vees.

[G.Rossman]

Excellent recommendation to come out to Blackhawk this weekend (June 19 – 21), there should a few Auto Dynamics racing this weekend and a large field of 30 vintage Formula Vees racing. It's a great event and group of drivers. Seeing what's possible could give you inspiration to join the VSCDA and our group of Vees.

I am off Thursday Friday and Saturday do you by chance know the schedule? I watched one of your youtube videos and saw an AD go past. It looked like the roll bar has larger diameter pipe in the back and it went much higher on the hoop. Of course I could not see where it went down to.

I have not figured out why they cut the frame on each side in the back like that yet or how strong it may or may not be at this point. I have a longer post to make but I am stuck on my phone and want to post it from my pc.

Here are a few more pics I took a little while ago. I am curious what is suppose to go where the spots are that got cut off. This would be by the drivers legs. The one near the gauges has a matching spot on the other side. The one closer to the pedals does not seem to unless the spot across from it was ground down more.
I also took a shot of some tubes up front, right front. I am axious to get it washed. Will engine degressser and a spray setting on the hose bother anything? I have not take the underside off yet. It appears to also be fiberglass, I thought maybe some would be aluminum.
Took a shot of the corner down low of the "firewall" and where some joints are. The metal bar photo shows what would be under the driver, it looks bent so I was not sure on that and it runs over to that other section.

The holes in the metal tubes like where the belts are bolted down...are these normal? I am assuming yet and that gives you adjustment holes for how low or high the belt sits on your thighs/waist?

[crypt0zink]

Tentative Schedule for Blackhawk.

http://www.cvent.com/events/vscda-bl...3dc339140.aspx

Come out I'll personal introduce you to all the VSCDA FV drivers and the team that has at least 3 Auto Dynamics. Send me a PM

[BWAutosport]

Wish I wasn't stuck in Pittsburgh - would love to get up there and watch the races. Gotta get ready for the PVGP in July, however, so will be toiling away at the shop. No Vee for this year, but, hopeful to debut it next year.

If there are any early ADs, I'd love to get in touch with the owners to get some reference photos when we go to re-assemble ours. They would help the OP as well, I'm sure.

Rossman - you'll find, once you've undone all of the dzus fasteners on the body work up top, there are likely a couple of bolts holding the floor of the main bodywork to the chassis. My car has an aluminum sheet underneath the driver's seat, and like 4-6 bolts holding it on.

Tentative Schedule for Blackhawk.

http://www.cvent.com/events/vscda-bl...3dc339140.aspx

Come out I'll personal introduce you to all the VSCDA FV drivers and the team that has at least 3 Auto Dynamics. Send me a PM

[G.Rossman]

Tentative Schedule for Blackhawk.

http://www.cvent.com/events/vscda-bl...3dc339140.aspx

Come out I'll personal introduce you to all the VSCDA FV drivers and the team that has at least 3 Auto Dynamics. Send me a PM

I am not sure I will be able to make the drive up on Saturday and I work Sunday. I looked up directions on maps and it is about 5 hours from here. I did run across someone local who is running a solo event here on Sunday. He may not be running his Vee but sounds like he does run solo vee a lot.

[G.Rossman]

I have gotten advice both ways, between race it and put it back to vintage specs. Right now I am leaning this directions, solo vee and get it up and running first, then make the other changes as time goes on. I know I need a throttle return spring, so I am going to see if the auto store has one of those tomorrow. Also need a battery. Oil level checked good and looked like new. I can see it is leaking transmission fluid on the trailer so I need to find where that is coming from. The gauges look dated and I imagine the switches could use swapping out. The fuel tank is still in it and I have read I can run pump premium for a solo vee so I don't need to track down aviation fuel?

I looked over a solo vee blog and I see that the silver knob with the barb is where the generator use to go, clearly the previous owner had this setup for solo / hill climb already which is what I was told. I also now have a photo of this car being raced in a solo event by a previous owner and a couple names on the previous owners and races won in hill climb that I was given by the guy I bought the car from.

After looking over some google photos it looks like there are probably two bars missing from the front area where they would run over my legs? Are these something I should look at having fabricated and welded back in? It also appears that between the zero roll and the changes to make engine swaps easier the rear angles bars of the roll bar are the problem? What would be suggested for this? I was wondering about somehow cleaning up the spliced sections and making that cleaner and then having metal welded over the joints at those locations, then running a proper sized diameter tube from there up the the roll bar. I would not mind having the original design on the roll bar back in, I don't plan on swapping the engines that often that working them around a safety bar is that big of a deal.

How does the zero roll setup on this car look? I looked up some of the designs by Lathrop and those look pretty awesome and stout. I want to degrease and pressure wash it this weekend and try to get the grime out of the way.

I saw the right front shock, lower mount the nut is not all the way on so that needs to be snugged down.

Anyone have any thoughts on the last set of photos? Are those holes in the chasis where the belts are mounted, and for that matter the others around the area normally there? Hopefully once I wash it off I can get a better look for any corrosion, is that normally much of an issue with these? The weather has been gloomy so getting it out into some serious light has not been easy. I also need to install the jack/wheel on the front of the trailer so I can roll it around right now there is none and I have to keep a jack stand under it.

Should I plan on installing a fan? There is none currently is overheating much of an issue with these?


Appreciate the input, advice and reviews. Want to make the car right if I can, hate to unload it before I even get started, just got off to a rocky start.

As provamo said earlier, get out and race it. The suspension, carb, and intake aren't deal breakers; just changes made over time. Performance is something you can worry about when you get seat time. Most people would probably just like to see the roll bar fixed up first.

Your friendly SCCA Solo/AutoX people could likely refer you to a few people familiar with Vees in your area, and I think almost any racer would lend a hand to get it safe for you. You may need to add a currently dated safety harness, as I don't see one in the pictures previously posted.

The VSCDA operates in your area, and they have a race at Blackhawk Farms Raceway this weekend, that's about 5 hours northwest of Indianapolis. They may be a good resource for you to find another vintage Vee owner near you that can offer some on-site advice as well. Whether you go to the race or not, I'm sure there are vintage Vees near you.http://www.vscda.org/

Vees won't drive a large $$ on the market when completely restored, compared to other open wheel marques/classes. But that's because they're also not terribly expensive cars to race and maintain, compared to other things. I'd love to pay Vee prices for my British stuff...

[G.Rossman]

Just went through your photos on my desktop. I am without a doubt missing two bars that run along where your legs run when sitting in the car. That is the indent I have up front I bet, it is where the bar use to mount. I am also of course missing the large bar that runs from the top of the hoop down to the transmission housing which I gather is why the roll bar is being deemed unsafe. Why remove those two bars up front? I also have two other spots, one on either side of where your legs run that to me looks like something else was cut out that probably went side to side between the two cut off ends.

Looking forward to photos!

I too, last year, rescued a 65 Autodynamics from PA.
Seems that some re-work has been done to my chassis - roll bar added, some structural members front rear replaced/moved - detailed photos of basically the entire frame, rear suspension, etc. would be really beneficial.

The P.O. had disassembled, sand-blasted, and left it in almost as many parts as you can (though it still rolled) when I got to it, so, a decent amount of re-construction is ahead of us. Congrats on the find!

[G.Rossman]

Local auto cross this Sunday. Hoping to take car by for a solo vee driver to look over it with me.

Also next week may take it to a local VW shop that does custom work.

[G.Rossman]

Here it is auto crossing

[provamo]

C o n g r a t u l a t i o n s !!!!

[G.Rossman]

Provamo,

Wish it was me...that's a history photof of the car from a previous owner. No log books but I do have a few bits of history on it.

[jiga]

G.Rossman,
Sorry your Autodynamics didn't end up being what you'd hoped. (Saw the ebay listing and just catching up on all the recent posts here.) Best of luck with the sale and search for the right car.


The link BWAutosport posted shows pics of the car I bought a few years back. After buying the car, I had the opportunity to speak with a few gentleman who worked at Autodynamics, as well as founder Ray Caldwell. (Helps that I happen to live in the same town - Marblehead, MA - as where the company was started.) From these exchanges and early photos/stories, I've managed to cobble together some history on my car (believed to be an early car raced in Bahamas Speed Week) and early Autodynamics FV's in general. Happy to help as best I can with any info and/or pics if needed.

Jim

[provamo]

G.Rossman,
Sorry your Autodynamics didn't end up being what you'd hoped. (Saw the ebay listing and just catching up on all the recent posts here.) Best of luck with the sale and search for the right car.


The link BWAutosport posted shows pics of the car I bought a few years back. After buying the car, I had the opportunity to speak with a few gentleman who worked at Autodynamics, as well as founder Ray Caldwell. (Helps that I happen to live in the same town - Marblehead, MA - as where the company was started.) From these exchanges and early photos/stories, I've managed to cobble together some history on my car (believed to be an early car raced in Bahamas Speed Week) and early Autodynamics FV's in general. Happy to help as best I can with any info and/or pics if needed.

Jim

if raced at THE Bahamas speed week maybe Sam Posey drove it!!! the cool thing back then is that Formula One Grand Prix drivers raced in the Formula Vee race. that is how i found out about FV and why i bought one