Late vs. Vintage
Hi. I'm still doing my research on what kind of car to go after, and my wife asked an interesting question.
If I buy a vintage car, will I have more race options around the southeast U.S.? In other words with a vintage car, can I race in any FV event, where a newer machine would not be allowed in vintage events?
Originally Posted by redliterunner
Pretty much. The caveat would be to make certain the Vintage options have the required safety updates.
A vintage car with the proper updates would be welcome at Vintage events as well as SCCA events....though likely not terribly competitive at local events.
A late model car will not be welcomed by many vintage organizations, though there are some that do. Check with your local vintage options before making a choice.
I'd look at the size of the fields at the various options you have and weigh your decision accordingly.
Do you want to race or participate?
Brian
Careful. Many folks have different definitions of what exactly those terms mean...and the solutions, based on the answers would vary by region and club.
Perhaps, restated if I may: "What are your expectations and goals?"
I have no delusions. I hope to:
Spend countless hours in the shop fiddling with the car while beering.
Enter a few races a year.
Race my butt off while I'm on the track.
Not finish last.
Not dam up traffic.
Not hurt anyone or get hurt.
Have fun with some new friends.
I'm not serious about being a regional champ, but I'm very serious about all the above.
Like what was already mentioned, safety issues are what separates vintage from current specs. Check the SCCA GCR book for current safety issues and be careful of "add-on" roll hoops used on many vintage cars.
If those were my goals I'd buy a Caldwell D13 where I could do both SCCA and Vintage. Having the flexibility to decide where and with whom you wish to race and the option to continue to do both if you wish.
If you later decide that Vintage is the group you wish to race with consistently you will have the car of choice.
If you later decide that SCCA is the group you wish to race with, it will be some time before the car is the limiting factor and it will be a sought after vintage model.
If you continue to want to race with both the D13 is the perfect choice.
Exactly what I've been thinking...but can a D13 be rigged to hold 74 inches of newby?
Absolutely. I'm the same height and had a D13. It's a matter of how the current owner has placed the pedals and the seat as to just how easily you'll fit in one you try on. Size 12 shoes as well. 6'4" guy raced a Lynx B, but I'm not sure how most vintage clubs feel about that one.
Vintage
With some minor alterations to the pedals and the pitman arm, the D-13 will definitely accommodate 73.25 inches.
Beware of certain models that have been modified to a single shock. Most vintage groups will not accept that version.
Dietmar
www. quixoteracing.com
That's info I needed. Thanks a ton. What about zero roll suspensions? Are they allowed in vintage events, and is that a preferable setup?
Zero roll isn't allowed in vintage Monoposto rules, but check with your local club.
"The car must originally have been manufactured two springs
and two shocks as the supporting devices for the rear
suspension."
http://www.monoposto.com/MR_2014_Rules.html
There is one FV that can run a mono shock under the vintage Monoposto rules, the 1969 Templeton Shadowfax.
http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z...Shadowfax.aspx
Yes, check with your local club. Monoposto FV rules have been recently updated.
It's my understanding that D13's that are DUAL SPRING and DUAL SHOCK are allowed. It's the single shock (as Dietmar alluded) that are the concern.
Many people confuse the terms mono-shock and zero-roll. There were cars, like the Caldwells, that had zero-roll suspension using two shocks and two springs, thereby being "duo-shock" zero-roll rear suspension. Most modern cars have a "mono-shock" "zero-roll" rear suspension but they are not mutually exclusive. Most early cars had duo-shock conventional rear suspension. Got it?
It gets more confusing if you have a mono-shock zero roll suspension but add a small anti-roll bar or device. Theoretically, it now does have some roll resistance, and should not be called "zero-roll" anymore, although most people would.
Not sure where Abalama is but you might look out for Sherman and Toni Engler, who are in Alabama and could probably help you select a direction.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
OK then...Sounds like I just need to find a reasonably priced dual shock D13 or project in the southeast US, with a usable 1200 core, and get started.
I'm not gonna lie. I'm really looking forward to this.
Mel
Whoa, just saw that last post. I'm going to have to find some pictures to get a better idea what you're talking about. Yes, I thought the transverse monoshock=zero roll.
Interestingly there are two D13s very near me, at least one of which might have belonged to you problemchild. The owner quoted something you put on a post in his Craigslist ad. One is purple, and the other is mostly blue. They seem a bit pricey to me personally, but I will probably go look at them anyway.
Mel
Could a D13 dual-shock, zero-roll like this one be converted to a Monoposto legal FV?
Why would that one need to be "converted"?
That car is on CL and very near me. Are you the owner?
Bringing this thread back rather than starting a new one.
Well I finally got a D13 and I'm wrapping up the ergonomics and mechanical restoration to vintage legal, and planning shakedowns with the local autocrossing crowd.
After several sessions running around the neighborhood and skid-padding around cul-de-sacs, I realize that it's stupid to guess on setting up the suspensions, and need advice.
So I take it that caster is set by the frame, but that I could change it using shims between the frame and beam if I wanted to. I'm more concerned with camber and toe for starters. Shooting completely in the dark, I randomly loaded the mounting pins with all the shims that were originally on the car but used 5 more on the bottom pin on each side to give me some negative camber. Tire wear indicates that I have a little, but another FV driver said I'd probably get into some binding with this 'setup'.
What's the right way of setting up negative camber and how do I go about measuring accurately?
Bringing this thread back rather than starting a new one.
Well I finally got a D13 and I'm wrapping up the ergonomics and mechanical restoration to vintage legal, and planning shakedowns with the local autocrossing crowd.
After several sessions running around the neighborhood and skid-padding around cul-de-sacs, I realize that it's stupid to guess on setting up the suspensions, and need advice.
So I take it that caster is set by the frame, but that I could change it using shims between the frame and beam if I wanted to. I'm more concerned with camber and toe for starters. Shooting completely in the dark, I randomly loaded the mounting pins with all the shims that were originally on the car but used 5 more on the bottom pin on each side to give me some negative camber. Tire wear indicates that I have a little, but another FV driver said I'd probably get into some binding with this 'setup'.
What's the right way of setting up negative camber and how do I go about measuring accurately?
Reach out to Dietmar. He's a wealth of knowledge AND he has the patience of Job.
Did you get logbooks with that car?
Yep. Just start and end with Dietmar. You'll save a lot of time.
Binding occurs because the original VW design was not meant to allow negative camber. Adding shims puts the link pins in a bind. You need bushings that provide the correct angle, Dietmar can provide those.
Unfortunately I did not. A couple of local guys have given me a few details about the car's history, but overall I don't know much. I have this pic of it as purchased, if anyone recognizes it.
He's reached out to me, and I will do that. I just didn't want to assume he'd have time to train up a flunky.
Camber and toe
Mel:
We ALL started somewhere.
We'll talk later.
Dietmar
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