Starter input......
Starter input......
Whoa.
What Charlie is trying to do is to protect the Wizard from hurting his car or worse himself by relying on advice from a bunch of guys who do not know.
Steve and Richard are probably the only ones who might know.
Ok, then I, and any future readers of this thread, would ask that anyone that doesn't know the answer or have any other useful info to please not post as though they do. And I will pay closer attention to inputs from Steve and Richard, although there ARE a few other EXPERTS here who I know personally and who have already been very helpful.
Why would someone feel a "need" to post on a topic of which they have little knowledge? Crazy...just read, learn, and move on.....
Starter
20-50w .will work just fine. Make sure car is in neutral,Disconnect the spark box( later cars would have an ECU) DFX uses a spark box. Remove the spark plugs. Rotate the engine with starter to build oil pressure and fuel pressure. Once fuel begins to blow out the spark plug holes, stop rotating the starter. Reconnect the spark box, install warmup spark plugs. Rotate starter until engine fires, immediately remove the starter from the gearbox input. Once engine has reached operating temp. shut engine off, install race plugs and start engine. You are ready to race.
That's how it's done folks.....thanks my friend. We gonna talk live soon?
Starter
Always available, spend way to much time in the shop building Indycars (at least that's what my wife says)
Starter
One of many Indycars in the shop currently. This is a third generation Dallara. Finished 2nd in the indy500 in 2010 with Dan Weldon driving, came back in 2011 and finished second again with Hildebrand driving.We bought it at the Panther auction. Installing a 3rd GEN chevy in it, Honda's are unavailable .
Starter
Original Cosworth DFX Bosch race plug. The warmup plugs look like a traditional spark plug with a normal looking electrode.
Thanks Indy, ahhh ok, the plugs in the car as delivered are Champion A10, with electrodes. I assume that means Otis drove the car on warm-up plugs. Is that ok for driving 6/10ths?
What is the number on the Bosch?
I will call you tomorrow......
starter
Sounds like he did. The warmup plugs foul out real easy on Methanol, only use them on the warm procedure. Finally went home tonight, will give you the Bosch and Champion race plug number in the AM. Not sure if they are still available, we are still using new plugs that the two companies gave to us in the eighties and very early nineties
DFX Plugs
Cosworth DFX spark plug numbers.
Champion race plug number is A50R
Bosch race plug number is B241 08 5417
We have a very limited supply of new ones available for sale.
Last edited by indy88; 07.17.15 at 10:52 AM.
Update for those of you who helped or are just interested.....
Pulled the plugs, lubed the cylinders, filled with oil, neutral, and cranked with that damn large 24 volt starter......engine rotated fine and a ton of oil pressure was displayed on the dash.
Next step is to find a battery that fits the odd-sized tray, or change out the tray, and try again and look for spark.....getting closer.....
I'm curious how you determined direction of rotation. Other than that, Done good ! Time to throw some fuel at it, now it gets exciting. Pops
God is my pilot, I'm just the loose nut behind the wheel !
The support arm being on the right would be a good clue, assuming that it is the correct starter for the car.
Yes, what Fred suggested dawned on me at the last minute. That starter was so heavy and powerful I did have a moment of pause to reconsider everything. The car was on chassis stands, so raised a bit, and I became concerned that the arm only had minor engagement with the ground, so I lowered the car. And then considered which way the resistive torque would thrust the starter.
I also got conformation from a couple other sources, because of course I do my "due diligence" and seek information from many other sources...lol.....Ed Pink's guy Frank was one of these.
And since I had dis-assembled the fuel pump and then tested it after completion I knew which way it should rotate, so with the first bump of the starter I checked the fuel pump mechcanical drive to be sure it was going the right way.
Last edited by the Wizard; 09.24.15 at 7:36 PM.
we want video of the first start!
best wishes man!!
For all the help I've gotten have that's a deal!
I just found the odd-sized battery, so after installation the next step is to crank and check for spark, confirming the ignition box functions properly.
Then I'll try to fire it up on gasoline, plumbed from and back into an external tank.
Random question for the day.....although far from original, could this engine run off one of the MSD ignition systems?
"DANGER Will Robinson!!"Originally Posted by the Wizard
I'm not an expert on alcohol engines, but I do know that the jetting will be WAY off as will the timing, rising rate fuel pressure rgulator ("brain"), etc.... You may really damage the engine if you don't have someone there who really knows what they are doing. I would hate to see you make a very expensive mistake at this point.
-John Allen
Tacoma, WA
'82 Royale RP31M
(‘72 Royale RP16 stolen in 2022)
You're right, they do not run well on gasoline, but I have confirmed this is an ok thing to do. Actually this is one of the possible techniques for pickling, to run the methanol out using gasoline. Only issue is you can never put gasoline in the fuel cell, so you have to plumb it to do all of this from a remote gasoline tank.
I'll have to check if "the brain" should still be used or just bypassed for this.
This is how we pickled the Champcar XFE's and the IRL Hondas.
Fred, Did these cars use "brains" to regulate the dump back into the tank?
And if so, did you route the brain output to the external tank, or did you just disconnect the input fuel line into the brain to catch gas externally?
Obviously the second option takes the function of the brain out of the system while the car is running on gas.
Last edited by the Wizard; 07.20.15 at 9:46 PM.
No, we just disconnected the fuel lines and connected the pickle rig and fired up the engine.
No brain on the later engines.
Batteries and pickling
3 Batteries hooked up in series for 36 volts for a Gerhardt starter, biggest batteries you can fit. The starter is a bomb bay door motor from WWII modified by Gerhardt. If you try doing all the starting with 24 volts, you'll soon switch to 36 volts. When pickling you do not want to run gasoline through the "brain" as it will ruin the diaphragm. In and out of the engine by external tanks or containers. However pickling is done with gasoline and it will barely run, also add a small amt of Klotz upper cylinder oil or naptha.
How would I know if what I have is a Gerhardt motor?
I asked about using naptha in another thread and was told any one of a number of marine aerosol fogging sprays would be much better as they add lubrication and corrosion prevention to the methanol displacement, which naptha doesn't. Ok, so various opinions....
Starter
If the photo at the beginning of the thread is yours, it is a Gerhardt starter. As to the pickling, the normal is Gasoline with some Klotz upper cylinder oil, I believe 1 1/2 oz per the folks at Klotz--- that is from my engine builder, Naptha used to be used to flush out and/or neutralize the methanol, but most people run the gasoline thru to flush while the engine runs, but not very well. Easier to obtain and easier to do.
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