Voltage on starter???

[the Wizard]

This is the starter that came with the car, it has no specs on it. It is wired for two batteries inside the box, which of course are not there now, cables are loose. I have one of those 12 volt jump starter batteries, and I hooked it up to the starter and it seemed to spin well.

http://www.cuda-challenger.com/starter.jpg

I assumed when I got the new batteries I was to connect the cables such that they were wired in parallel, maintaining the 12 volts, kind of like in my RV. But it has recently been pointed out to me this may in fact be a 24 volt stater, requiring the batteries to be wired in series. Comments?

Thanks as usual.....

[Steve Davis]

I would presume that it was used as a JUMP starter for something. Most likely it is 12v and the batts were in parallel. As was pointed out, anything is possible, but there are a LOT more 12 volt starters out there than anything else. If it works on 12v, it won't really matter - as long as it spins the engine over at adequate speed to crank it.

[Pop Chevy]

You can try it on 12vt, but I'll bet it doesn't have enough power to start the engine. That doesn't look like a standard starter to me. Try it you'll find out. I'm thinkin 24vt.

[Charles Warner]

If it was a 12 volt starter would it not just have one hot cable to the solenoid and one cable to the ground (white in this case.)? It appears there are two hot cables to the solenoid which would lead me to the conclusion that it is probably a 24 volt system which was very common. Wire the batteries in parallel and the solenoid should create the 24 volts to spin the starter.

The only real reason to have two batteries is to combine their voltage. Otherwise, if only one battery (fully charged) is needed, you have quick disconnects and keep two batteries fully charged but use only one at a time. Much easier to roll around.

[scorp997]

You know thatthe 2 black cables are on opposite sides of the solenoid, rightt? One goes into the solenoid and one out. You can't see where the 3 wires go, since they go out of the picture. Any other pictures of the cable assembly?

I would agree with most that it would be a 12v, but electrical systems in an aircraft are 24v. I suppose the starter *could* be from a plane, but if it turns the engine over on 12v that is what I would run.

[Charles Warner]

You are probably right is that is the way it's wired. I'll still bet it's a 24v system.

[the Wizard]

I'll try to upload another photo with the wires to the relay (not a solenoid)......that's why there's so many wires going to it. Two small low-current wires to the switch at whatever voltage the batteries are wired at, and two large high-current wires to drive the motor itself. The post with the large and small wire attached is ground.

[Charlie Schmidt]

I was told once that a lot of these starter units actually were DC-3 GENERATORS, which were rewired and used as starters...24volt There must be some old-time indy car mechs out there who can sort this

I will probably see one next weekend at HPR...want me to inquire?

[the Wizard]

Yes thanks...any info is appreciated. Fortunately I have some time on this, but eventually this info will be required.

[Jerry B.]

try this on:

https://www.google.com/patents/US7821145

looks pretty close....there might be a tag on the motor housing...or at least a stamping that might have the manufacturer.

And here's a picture.......

http://www.forgottenfield.com/amg/powerplant/4178.JPG

more than likely was made by Bendix and 24 volts.

[the Wizard]

I didn't see any markings, but I'll look more closely tomorrow....

[provamo]

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorspo...to-turn-right/

[Pop Chevy]

Great story, now I want one even more !!!!

[the Wizard]

What a cool car that is.....love those early cars....

[provamo]

What a cool car that is.....love those early cars....

from when INDY was................lots of cool cars not just Lotii

simple rules.....run what ya brung

been thinking recently of he Navarro brothers turbo Rambler powered rear engined car

[the Wizard]

I did check again more closely, and still see absolutely no markings on the starter case. But I think we have this one solved....thanks

As I study the car without the body I have a ton of "what's this?" questions.....so stay tuned!

[the Wizard]

So I noticed there are two short sections of loose cable, plus the two fixed long ones to the connecter, implying 3 batteries. And although I kind of forgot to really check this, I think I saw 3 battery setups at SVRA Fontana.....so 36 volts I guess it is???

I'm about really to start some cranking so I need to jump on this.....

[the Wizard]

I did find the label....

"JH D31-115" on the starter,

and "24 V" on the relay, which might seem like the smoking gun, but I don't think that precludes using 36 volts.....I'm still hung-up on the two loose cables, which would only be required for 3 batteries wired in series making 36 volts.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this, but I just don't wanna fry it.....

[Purple Frog]

If you found four loose cables in the box, would you hit it with 60 volts?

It is 24 volts. Don't cook it, for you will find it very expensive to replace.

[the Wizard]

I don't know what voltage it's supposed to be....so it's a puzzle. I just put the clues together and ask for people to advise that actually have experience. Seems I saw 3 battery systems at the recent vintage event, I should've paid closer attention. Obviously those two cables were used or why are they there? And the box is built to the exact size of 3 batteries...10"x22".

If I had recently seen one with four batteries, and mine had four cables, and the box was built for four....sure, I'd wire it that way.

But I think I'll start with 2 at 24V and see how that works, if it works I'm done.....if not enough power I'll add another battery.....

[Purple Frog]

So... I feel for you..
Playing with Google and researching even back to May 1, 1939 FAA documents concerning the DC-3. Its starter/generator does appear to be spec'ed as a 24 volt unit. But much could have changed in 80 years.

If you saw three battery units at a SVRA event, I would start calling the folks at SVRA management, and try to get contact numbers for guys at that event that had comparable equipment. usually everyone will try to help.
The answer may only be a few phone calls away.

[the Wizard]

Yeah I could kick myself for not really jumping on this while I was there in Fontana. I'm not sure I'll remember but I'll give it some thought. I did get a couple business cards. Still makes sense to start with the lower voltage first though I assume? See what happens?

[Charles Warner]

You are dealing with some potentially very expensive stuff and relying on a bunch of guesses from a lot of us with minimal experience. Then you second-guess the suggestions. Do some research, hire someone with operational knowledge of the car, have him come over and pay him to get you up to speed. You can't tell me there are not a bunch of good knowledgeable guys out there. Either that or . . . .

FRAM

[the Wizard]

I have done that for the car in general. He's been to my garage and we've put a plan together to understand its current condition. This has to do with one very specific issue....the voltage required by a starter that has no labels, and his general F1/Indy car expertise is not precise enough for this one question....thanks....

If you know of and "good knowledge guys" that could answer this please let me know and I'll definitely contact them.....

[Charles Warner]

Right of the top of my head -

Graham Collins at Collins Racing 714.293.5150

Reilly Restorations at 415.924.3191

GE Autosports at 317.272.8119

Ed Pink Racing Engines at 818.785.6740

Historic Champ/Indy Car Assn. at 630.321.1411

[PaulT]

Right of the top of my head -

Graham Collins at Collins Racing 714.293.5150

Reilly Restorations at 415.924.3191

GE Autosports at 317.272.8119

Ed Pink Racing Engines at 818.785.6740

Historic Champ/Indy Car Assn. at 630.321.1411

Historic Champ/Indy Car Assn. at 650.321.1411

Paul

[the Wizard]

I emailed Graham as a start.....

[indy88]

It is 24 volt. Buy two batteries, install and you are done.

[the Wizard]

Thank you buddy......

Update.....ok, 24 volts and the starter screams like a banzee....lol....as wired would drive the shaft on the Hewland CCW as viewed from the rear....that sound right?

[Pop Chevy]

Put the car in gear and bump it forward. That will tell you direction. AFAIK the starter drive runs straight to the crank or does it drive the lower shaft.

[the Wizard]

Good idea....but it's up in the air with no wheels. That gear on the back doesn't rotate all the time the engine is running does it?

[Charles Warner]

Put the wheels on.

Depending on the set-up there may be a Sprague clutch installed or it might be direct drive. Or something else. Find someone that really knows.

[Fred Michael]

CCW should be correct and make sure that support arm on the starter is against something solid before you crank the engine.
Wouldn't be a bad idea to crack check the starter shaft before you use it. When they fail it is REALLY dangerous.

[Purple Frog]

I see the potential for a broken wrist or worse. (we'll watch for a "fail" youtube video)

Seriously, You really need to know what you are doing with that tool.

[the Wizard]

Well yes, as a retired physicist, I can assure you the support arm will be grounded to prevent rotation. Anything else? It's not rocket science...lol. I'm just gonna look for oil pressure for now....plugs out. Gonna fill it with that Valvoline VR1 Synthetic 20w-50.....sound good?

[Charles Warner]

Stop asking US! Go to a pro. CCW? From the front of the engine or rear of the engine? Oil type? Why should we know?

Find someone who knows what he is doing and foot the bill.

[the Wizard]

Well because that's what a forum is for my friend.....please feel free to ignore me and not read any of my posts.

And I already said from the back of the engine. You having a bad night?

This is funny actually. I run a board with 14,000 members and over 900,000 posts, MOPAR stuff, and there are two types of folks there....people with questions, and people who have expertise and wish to answer questions. Why else would anybody be reading this?

[Pop Chevy]

The problem is that there are very few here with Indy Car experience. I myself would love to own one, therefore I am paying close attention. I believe the only formula cars with external starters are Indy cars, most all have onboard starters so this is outside our area of expertise. I used to race Harley Davison drag bikes and a lot of guys used external starters just because a big starter is heavy. They rotated CCW and yes a positive stop was very important to keep your wrists attached to your arms.
As far as oil goes, I think 20-50 would be a good choice, that's what I was told to use in my Toyota Atlantic. BTW, you should have heard the flak I got when I posted that I wanted to build my own engines !!! You would have though I peed on a statue of St. Mary !!
Good luck and be careful.

[Charles Warner]

And I already said from the back of the engine.

You said the "shaft" on the Hewland. Pinion shaft? Lay shaft? Pop Chevy asked that and you did not respond. Is it a direct drive? If not the direction of shaft rotation may not be the direction of engine rotation. There are probably many different systems out there and you expect someone on this board to answer all of your questions. I would think the person you bought the car from could answer them or be able to put you onto to the chaps that ran the car for him. If not then the car is probably in need of a total rebuild as the history is unknown.

This is funny actually. I run a board with 14,000 members and over 900,000 posts, MOPAR stuff, and there are two types of folks there....people with questions, and people who have expertise and wish to answer questions. Why else would anybody be reading this?

There are also people who want to get as much free advice as possible without doing due diligence. A modicum of research should easily provide all of these answers, yet you keep second-guessing those who try to provide answers and suggestions. Case in point - oil type? Call the engine builder. (You do know who that is, don't you?) Plain and simple. How would we know what oil he would prefer that you use? Or call Chuck Cornelison (317.745.6373) or Ed Pink (818.785.4710) and ask a simple question.

I'm beginning to think you are more interested in the journey than the destination.

[the Wizard]

Charlie.....I may not be a champ car expert but I do know forums and you seem to be confused.

Suggestion 1, if you don't like a post, or the poster, or you don't have anything of value to add, or anything at all about the thread YOU CERTAINLY SHOULDN'T REPLY. As a matter of fact, when you reply with other than something that moves the thread forward you're just getting in the way. Pop....if no one has an answer that's fine...no problem at all....the thread just doesn't go very far. Why would someone even want to reply to a thread they know nothing about? I just don't get that.....just move along, nothing here to see.

Pop...did you ever build the engines?

Suggestion 2, If you're not sure about any of this or have a complaint about any of my posts please contact the moderator and he will set you straight about the purpose and use of a forum.

Observation....since I started posting on this board several months ago there's only been one other thread, so it's not like this area is using up all the bandwidth. And as I look back over the years there is still very little activity. So I don't see the problem with some on-topic questions.....again, that's the entire purpose for a forum. Advertisers are paying to be here, and if there's no "traffic" they get no value for their money and will leave. If everybody leaves the owner of the board has to turn the lights out. This is how it's supposed to work.

Observation.....Another aspect of a forum is to archive these threads so that anyone in the future can do a search and possibility find the answer the their question without even having to post. I always do that search first and have found very little or mostly nothing on these topics in the archive. So, all the effort in members answers help build that database of info, except those of course that just post complaints or anything else of no value.

Fact....I am in touch with several outside experts, such as Graham, and Vince, and Ed Pink's shop, the cars restorer and previous chief mechanic, and a couple more who are ultra-experts but are here under alias so I will not out them But each of these folks have limited time to help, and the ultra-experts have even turned down "for hire" services as they are already pretty busy. Money is not the issue. And this project is not about delivering the car to somebody to have them do everything while I then learn NOTHING.

Fact...the previous owner of consequence is dead, Otis Chandler, so no info there...thanks.

"Due diligence"? What the hell are you talking about? "Free"? You want me to send a check for telling me where to get windshields made? My god....that's what forums are for....join the 21st century.

Fact....if I ask a naive question that doesn't give enough info for a proper answer you can politely ask for more info, or you can ignore me....getting negative is never appropriate here. Again, check with your moderator. You're probably smart enough to figure out that I don't give-a-**** what you think about my motivations.

Observation....You say go do some research, well not much is available with regard to books etc, and Google. For example I did buy books, but even the best one recommended by VDS on their website (Indy Race Cars) is pretty lite-weight. You suggested names....yes, many of whom I'm already in touch with, but I know others are here reading this post so this is the same thing. Some of these experts have answered my questions here, and I'm sure they prefer that to when I call them and we gab on for an hour....they know who they are.

THANKS...As I look back at my threads just about each and every one has been successful and moved the project forward. Windshields has been made, mag wheels polished, starter wired, fuel shut-off figured out, "the brain" identified, wheel threads figured out, filters ordered from Cosworth, etc, etc, etc. To those that understand the purpose here and contributed to that progress I truly truly thank you. And the ApexSpeed knowledge-base grows.....and I promise you this is what they want also.