016 or 014?

[JohnPaul]

I'm sure this has been talked about a lot but I cant find any real back to back comparisons. The question is: If you put the same decent driver in both cars which is going to be faster the Swift 014 or 016? and why? Also, which is the better car maintenance wise? parts availability, engine rebuilds (think I know the answer to that one), ease to work on etc? which is the car to have if you want to be nationally competitive? opinions, feedback, comments all welcome....
Thanks,
JP

[S Lathrop]

I have worked with all three versions of the Swift 08, 014, and 016. I think the 014 is the best of the batch. Given equal horse power, the 014 would be the fastest.

I think that some one has installed a Honda engine in a 014. That would be my recommendation.

[JByers]

Results speak for themselves and the torque of the 016 is hard for an 014 to beat.


I think that some one has installed a Honda engine in a 014. That would be my recommendation.[/QUOTE]

Someone did and the new owner is a pretty good shoe. Can't wait to see the results this year.

[mousecatcher]

I notice cost was not a criterion in your question.

As for competitiveness, in SCCA these are performance-balanced cars. I think if there were a slew of 014's that were grumpy that 016's were beating them, you'd eventually find a smaller restrictor or weight penalty applied to the 016. So if you're looking for an answer to which car is fundamentally better, at least performance-wise, you aren't going to find it within the limits of the SCCA rulebook.

[JByers]

I notice cost was not a criterion in your question.

As for competitiveness, in SCCA these are performance-balanced cars. I think if there were a slew of 014's that were grumpy that 016's were beating them, you'd eventually find a smaller restrictor or weight penalty applied to the 016. So if you're looking for an answer to which car is fundamentally better, at least performance-wise, you aren't going to find it within the limits of the SCCA rulebook.

Mousecatcher has figured out the mouse trap.

If you buy an Atlantic you will be an instant member of the motor of the year club with about 3-4 members heading the pack. If it was me again I would select an 016 which is the most competitive right now and capable of accepting just about any new motor. New parts and tubs I believe, are still available for the 016.

[Pop Chevy]

I run a 008 in vintage. If I had the budget it would be an 016, the Mazda engine w/300 hp is tough to beat.

[Purple Frog]

My understanding is that Atlantic Creations can provide all parts for the 016, even a complete car.

The problem with the Honda currently is that it doesn't match up if you add the 75 lb. for sequential shifter, etc. etc. Without the 75 lb. it might have a chance.

YMMV

[James Hill]

lose the ristrors lose the idiots that are trying to push others or block and you have it.

[James Hill]

My apolagies, the 2 classes that i really give a , about hate to see it .

[Pop Chevy]

Huh ? must of had a tough night.

[bill gillespie]

Hey JP,

Jason has excellent perspective and good advice.....here' some more..lol. So does Mr Lathrop.

Re-engine ANY car is a major expense.....don't ask me how I know...

The heavy hitters in the 014 switched to the 016, and were still the heavy hitters. The increase in the SIR probably had a lot to do with it, but the 016 engine builders found some real HP....however the SIR adjustment rears it's head again....In 2014, the 014's were fighting for also ran status........again, think engine table and SIR adjustments.

I believe the 016 has more room for a proper seat, and may be a bit safer for that reason....especially for a big guy.

best of luck,
Bill

[Brian.Novak]

*cough*

Along with some shameless self promotion for likes. More content coming all year long

https://www.facebook.com/BrianNovakRacing

[Purple Frog]

Safety. There is a thread of truth in that.

When the Atlantic pro series was a real big deal that Vicki was running, the 016 became the mandatory spec car with safety being one of the strong considerations in its design. And since it was a spec series, what they gave up in aero etc. was not a concern.

It could easily be argued it is the safest Atlantic.

[ghickman]

Well looky there....Brian in his Honda powered Swift...very cool.

If you want to know what the designer of the 014 and 016 thinks of the two cars he happens to be a member of this forum.

I've had this same conversation with him and Mr Lathrop has it nailed.

[Rick Ross]

This has been covered in the past in great detail, but the Swift 014a and 016a were never intended to compete against each other. They were both designed to be spec cars for the Pro Atlantic series. The 016 is not even an "atlantic" by most definitions, but that is pretty much irrelevant for this discussion.

In current SCCA competition, the faster car will be determined by the rules in effect at the moment. It is reasonable to assume that the rules will change occasionally, giving the advantage to one car or the other. As of today the advantage appears to be with the 016a (just follow the money). But the fastest car today may not be the fastest car tomorrow, so buyer beware. Innovators in SCCA Atlantic racing are usually "rewarded" with a rule change.

By almost any measure other than lap time, the 016a is arguably the better car. It is a more modern design, with a source for new parts. It has a large tub that will fit all sizes of drivers. And perhaps most importantly, it is in my opinion a much safer car, especially in the area of side impact and head protection.

I would be thrilled to own and drive either car.

[JohnPaul]

Thanks lots of honest great information. One thing I forget to ask about and I don't see much comments on is handling, mechanical and aero grip. I'm getting the message that the 014 may have the straight line advantage and 016 more corner speed. Typically in my brain that equates to the 014 being more slippery and less drag and the other more downforce and grip. Am I correct in assuming that? and how dramatically different are they in that respect? Obviously driver style and track will dictate which car is truly better on that day. One last thing: How does the downforce on the 016 compare to my Stohr WF1?

[ghickman]

My moneys on the Honda powered 014.

JP pretty sure you'll find the handling of the WF1 and the 016 very different.

Talking to the designer of the 016; the sanctioning body pressured Swift to design the car to be robust (code for heavy) and also put huge cost constraints on them. Cars and parts had to be sold at a price point that was unrealistic. I believe Swift lost money on the whole deal, certain of that.

FYI
Our machine shop still makes uprights for the 016.

[Rick Ross]

JP --

One other point -- if you are not concerned with chasing Majors or Runoffs wins, you do not need a 014 or 016 to go fast and have fun. A nice Swift DB4 or Ralt RT-40/41 will go faster than any other non-Atlantic open wheel car on the track (including FB). I used to own a Swift DB4, and it was an absolute joy to drive. The only reason I sold it was that I was too tall for the tub, and could not figure out a way to comfortably wear a HANS.

[mousecatcher]

The 016 is not even an "atlantic" by most definitions, but that is pretty much irrelevant for this discussion.

Would you mind elaborating on that.

[Ty_Handke_83]

Would you mind elaborating on that.

The Atlantic 'formula' included a 1.6L engine.

[marshall9]

Does the Honda make these more "Affordable" to run? How often between rebuilds? I can see this bringing more guys into FA. Engine costs are the reason I sold my DB1 after only one season. I figured nearly 6k per weekend with tires, engine rebuild costs factored in. That was in 1997. I would love to own another Atlantic, fun meter pegged all the way, but I can do a whole season of CF for the costs of one weekend in FA. A reliable, long lasting engine that doesn't need a top end refresh every other weekend and a 10K rebuild every 1k miles would be really tempting.

[bill gillespie]

Would you mind elaborating on that.

It also included a number of bodywork/wing dimension restrictions...

[S Lathrop]

JP --

One other point -- if you are not concerned with chasing Majors or Runoffs wins, you do not need a 014 or 016 to go fast and have fun. A nice Swift DB4 or Ralt RT-40/41 will go faster than any other non-Atlantic open wheel car on the track (including FB). I used to own a Swift DB4, and it was an absolute joy to drive. The only reason I sold it was that I was too tall for the tub, and could not figure out a way to comfortably wear a HANS.

I will add that the Ralt is a way better car from a drivers stand point. It is easier to drive fast and easier to get a good setup than the later model Swifts. That is based on having engineered all these cars except the DB4.

It is possible that the Honda engine in the RT41 might be a very drivable car. But it will be expensive to build the car in the first place.

[Rick Ross]

Would you mind elaborating on that.

For many years the Atlantic formula was for 1.6 liter, light weight, low power, high downforce cars. The 016 departed from this formula quite a bit, but that was not a problem, because it was a spec car designed to race only against other 016's in a spec pro series. It was only with the demise of the pro series that the 016's were allowed to race in the SCCA FA class.

BTW, I like the 016 a lot and think it is a very nice car -- I just have a hard time thinking of it as an "Atlantic" car.

[bill gillespie]

Rick....where is your Ralt ????????????

[Rick Ross]

Rick....where is your Ralt ????????????

.....sitting in a hangar out at the airport waiting for someone to put it back together and race it! With the right driver it might even be able to give some of the Swifts a little competition.

[ghickman]

Does the Honda make these more "Affordable" to run? How often between rebuilds? I can see this bringing more guys into FA. Engine costs are the reason I sold my DB1 after only one season. I figured nearly 6k per weekend with tires, engine rebuild costs factored in. That was in 1997. I would love to own another Atlantic, fun meter pegged all the way, but I can do a whole season of CF for the costs of one weekend in FA. A reliable, long lasting engine that doesn't need a top end refresh every other weekend and a 10K rebuild every 1k miles would be really tempting.

It may be possible that this is why Honda is making a stab at this. Think of it as what they've done in FF. Atlantic is still expensive any way you slice it but reliable HP would be a plus.

My pick would be an RT41 with the Honda but the 014 could be the ticket. I'm assuming that Honda is somehow behind this project with Novak, maybe Brian will chime in.

[bill gillespie]

It may be possible that this is why Honda is making a stab at this. Think of it as what they've done in FF. Atlantic is still expensive any way you slice it but reliable HP would be a plus.

My pick would be an RT41 with the Honda but the 014 could be the ticket. I'm assuming that Honda is somehow behind this project with Novak, maybe Brian will chime in.

hey Gary,

I re-engined my Rt41 for a Cosworth BD development motor.....very expensive and time consuming.

IMHO, any 2 liter, or bigger, engine would also require a new tranny, so the Ralt would be all new from the tub, rearward....think every piece.

I believe it would be the ultimate FA, but far from the safest. Rick summed up the lack of side and head protection, but there is virtually no room for a proper seat, etc.
Regards,
Bill

[Swift17]

.... A change in class being considered ?

[Brian.Novak]

It may be possible that this is why Honda is making a stab at this. Think of it as what they've done in FF. Atlantic is still expensive any way you slice it but reliable HP would be a plus.

My pick would be an RT41 with the Honda but the 014 could be the ticket. I'm assuming that Honda is somehow behind this project with Novak, maybe Brian will chime in.

Low cost HP is the goal. We are working in technical partnership with HPD on the project (we own the car, pay the costs etc) so they are going to be working with us, getting our data, and looking for problems with the motor and the conversion package to make sure everything is good to go for production. The whole goal, much like for FF, is to be able to have a much lower cost powertrain with significantly less maintenance and still be competitive. We are pretty pumped to be doing this and if you know us you know there would be no way we could consider the class without a motor package such as this. We just could not keep up with the motor costs that come with the other engines.

We ran the car at Buttonwillow two weeks ago and the engine was absolutely flawless. Unfortunately, the car itself is not ready for primetime so we won't be at Atlanta. Disappointing but we should be ready to go shortly.

[Steve Bamford]

Is it the K20 package being used or what? How would it be in a 016 knowing there is a size/weight difference between the cars?

[Bob Wright]

There are two different versions of the K20 with an 'uprated' motor for the 016. I know HPD is working on having long lived motors in both Swift models but I'm not sure where they are for actual expected operating miles at this point.

[Brian.Novak]

Is it the K20 package being used or what? How would it be in a 016 knowing there is a size/weight difference between the cars?

Yes it is the K20 but the implementation is different for the 014 vs the 016. The 014 is basically getting only a remapped engine with no internal modifications whereas the 016 is getting the same engine but modified internally to get it to match the Mazda powertrain and compensate for the added size of the 016.

Both engines are being implemented per the current rules in the GCR.

[mousecatcher]

So what you're saying is, maybe now is a good time to buy a chassis.

[bill gillespie]

Yes it is the K20 but the implementation is different for the 014 vs the 016. The 014 is basically getting only a remapped engine with no internal modifications whereas the 016 is getting the same engine but modified internally to get it to match the Mazda powertrain and compensate for the added size of the 016.

Both engines are being implemented per the current rules in the GCR.

Hey Brian,

Under Table 2 0f the GCR, 9.1.1 FA spec line, the Mazda 2.3 is the only engine listed for the SWift 016 . I know prior to that there are different prep rules when used for a FA car vs the Swift 016, but has Table 2 just not been updated to allow the K20 ?

What am I missing ?

Regards,
Bill G

[Steve Bamford]

Yes it is the K20 but the implementation is different for the 014 vs the 016. The 014 is basically getting only a remapped engine with no internal modifications whereas the 016 is getting the same engine but modified internally to get it to match the Mazda powertrain and compensate for the added size of the 016.

Both engines are being implemented per the current rules in the GCR.

How much HP is projected for the Honda to put out in the 014 and 016. I realize there is more then HP to make an engine competitive but figured I would start there. How far away are they from offering engines to teams? Parity is one of the issues I see with FA already so not sure how this will help or worsen the situation. Would be great to have a less expensive engine package if that is Honda's goal.

[Jasonrmbell]

The Crawford FL15 with the Honda K-24 is a lot of car for the Money. As well plenty of horse power and 3-5 year between rebuilds they are saying. Beautiful car I must say. I own one. Tested already this year.

[Dee]

an rt 41 with honda power is out there, to be tested by john morton early may in calif.

[Westroc]

Couple years(?) ago most flamed the guy about F3 cars on Apex right? Now every feature and benefit you are talking about has already been done w/F3 cars just like he was saying all along. No he is not a friend personally but he was on the money. Don't think a Dallara would be better now?

[BURKY]

Couple years(?) ago most flamed the guy about F3 cars on Apex right? Now every feature and benefit you are talking about has already been done w/F3 cars just like he was saying all along. No he is not a friend personally but he was on the money. Don't think a Dallara would be better now?

Keep in mind... That guy was trying to sell F3 cars, for thousands of dollars more than what they were worth, not to mention what they were actually selling for. Where is his series now?