Lithium Battery and Voltage Regulator and Hot Wires

[James Michael]

Hi,
I bought a Lithium battery (to save weight) and got it in my car. It has been awhile since I started the car so I had to crank the car for awhile until it started. The battery turned the motor over quite well.
Once the car was running I noticed a little smoke by the voltage regulator and it started getting worse, then a small fire started where the plug between the wires from the side cover to the voltage regulator is located which I put out. The wires on the VR side of the plug had melted the covering and were bare. The wires on the engine cover side of the plug were discolored. The plug from the VR to the wires that lead to the battery looked ok.
I did talk to George Dean and he said when I was cranking the motor I probably drained the battery down and that the Lithium batteries demand a lot of energy back to recharge and thus there is a lot of current going thru the wires. He said the plugs have more resistance than the rest of the wire so they get hot and thus the problem. He suggested I just cut out the plugs and solder the wires together (for both sets of plugs). When I change the motor, I'll have to cut those wires which is a bit of a pain but ok.
Was just wondering if anyone has some advice on this situation. I'm going to try what George had suggested and then check to see how the wires feel. I just don't want to get into a situation where I start burning wires again of course!
Any suggestions or experience with this using the Lithium batteries? Thank you.
James

[James Michael]

By the way, this is a GSXR 2008 Motor.
Cheers,
James

[racerdad2]

Can you install heavier gauge wiring to handle the higher amperage ?

[racerdad2]

Would the use of a jump battery help ?

[Brian]

What gauge of wire over-heated? What is the amperage output capacity of the alternator/

Brian

[James Michael]

Yea I would need to check on the gauge of the wire but the wires go into and out of the Voltage Regulator so I could not change that gauge (at least easily) without modifying the VR. I can get rid of the plugs easily. Thanks.

[racerdad2]

Just thinking out loud... IF the only time this is a problem is when you must crank the engine excessively long, a jump battery may solve the problem by keeping your lithium battery near a full charge ?

[Chris Livengood]

What brand and capacity battery? How low did you draw the battery? If it was lower than 8V, you may have destroyed the battery, creating an internal short and thusly smoking your regulator.

Generally speaking you can charge lithium slow or fast, it just depends on your regulator. For example I have charged my motorcycle lithium battery 2 Amp plus, thats for a 5 amp hour battery. I have also charged that battery at .2 Amp. That said, modern regulators are so good that you shouldn't have an issue (assuming everything is correct).

[James Michael]

Yea jumping would help but no garuetee this will solve problem if my battery is low on charge but I'm sure it would help.
The battery is a Anti-gravity, YT12BS-12. I am charging it with a 5 Amp charger and that works fine. I have not tried to start the car again since this issue but hopefully battery is not shot. Pretty unreliable if cranking the motor to get it started destroys the battery.
Thanks.

[BLS]

Typically, these battery's are not supposed to drop below 8/9 volts. But, I know some that have had it happen and managed to bring them back to life by charging discharging multiple times.

Another quirk is they operate better when warm. When cold you should bump the starter a few times, the discharge will warm the battery enough to put it in a better temperature range. This makes the battery seem sluggish when cold, but it really just needs to warp up. OTOH, my tiny battery in my FV cranked over just fine Sunday morning at the ARRC in Atlanta when the temperature was around 32F.

I'm going to hazard a guess that the fault is not in your battery. Voltage regulators are normally current limited as I recall... I did have a voltage regulator once (on a street car) that failed and burnt wires and overcharged a battery.

[Chris Livengood]

You may want to start the car with a jump battery then measure the voltage off the regulator with multimeter. If it's not consistently in the 14.2-14.8 range you might have a bad regulator.

[archie]

are you the same james Michael that was in the seattle area?
if so give me a call 206-979-1405 archie

[clint]

I had this issue once. It turned out to be the regulator. I had just put a new battery in and didnt check the voltage coming out of the regulator. The regulator was puting out 18+ volts!!!!!!. The battery melted and cought on fire thus forcing a discharge of the fire bottle. Turned out it was just the regulator after the smoke cleared. By the way, it was a brand new regulator. I changed the battery from a typical motorcycle battery to a litho and figured it was a good time to change to regulator. I was wrong! I put the old regulator back in with another new battery and it runs great. I have dealt with 12 different gsxr 600 powered cars and out of all of them it has only happened once. Hope this helps.

[Nick77]

First when your car is sitting and not in use always keep the antigravity battery charger (only) connected
Some other trickle chargers can cause harm
Second check the voltage regulator connector for loose connections can cause resistance
Make sure spade connections are nice and tight
Third remove the gray plastic loom from around the wires of the voltage regulator and separate them with wire spacers or small tire wraps (the wires going to the connector)
most importantly they need to have plenty of ventilation on a bike they get plenty of air in our compacted racecars they get very little air Over the fins of the regulator
Ventilation is your friend
Good luck

[James Michael]

Thanks for all the info. On the voltage regulator, it seems odd that I did not have this problem before when I was using a standard battery. I ran all last season with this VR and it was fine then as soon as I have the Lithium - well you know.
In any case might be a good idea to replace the VR anyway. The burning started at plug between side cover and VR, not from VR to battery so a lot of energy was there before getting to the VR.
By the way, the 1st battery I got did not work at all. I had to send it back and they sent me a new one which then worked fine (except of course when I started the car and has this issue), but it definitely cranked well. The 1st one didn't even have enough power to light up the dash even after charging for hours on a Lithium charger.

And Archie - yes that's me! I have an F1000 now! Sold the FC (that I converted to an FF) back in 2006. Hope all is well in Seattle - I'll try to give you a ring.

[ghickman]

Second check the voltage regulator connector for loose connections can cause resistance
Make sure spade connections are nice and tight
Third remove the gray plastic loom from around the wires of the voltage regulator and separate them with wire spacers or small tire wraps (the wires going to the connector)
most importantly they need to have plenty of ventilation on a bike they get plenty of air in our compacted racecars they get very little air Over the fins of the regulator
Ventilation is your friend
Good luck

Follow what Nick says and you'll prevent this from happening in the future.

I always carry at least 2 spare rectifiers all the time.

Had to replace one 5 minutes before Q2 at the Runoffs this year. Judging by how many companies sell replacement rectifiers on Ebay tells it all.

[James Michael]

Ok, thanks - I will get a new voltage regulator and do the wires as described and will eliminate the plugs as well to be sure.
At least my battery was not shot. I started the car this morning (the VR was disconnected).
I put the battery on a charger as well afterwards and it was in the normal charging range (not the red zone of 2-12V), so I think I'm ok but will charge it more tonight.

James

[JakeL]

Above advice is good. One other tidbit that helps on the Suzuki connections is to dab some dielectric grease to really help the contacts get a good connection, and also to keep dirt/grease out. They get hot even in the best of situations, but with a failing regulator and/or gunk, it can get really damn hot.

-Jake

[R. Pare]

If your charger is not designed for Lithium batteries, you can have problems. Lots of articles out there about the precautions needed when charging them:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a..._ion_batteries

http://www.atbatt.com/motorcycle-bat...rcycle-battery

http://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm

[dereklola]

Anyone know if a "typical car-type regulated alternator" if OK with LiFePo batteries? I'm thinking of the one wire Nippon Denso 45A "mini" alternator. Thx - Derek

[BLS]

Modern charging systems are OK, but maybe not older designs.

[Dick R.]

Keep in mind that the batteries used for race cars are LiFePO4 and not the common Li-ion. I don't know whether LiFEPO4 have the safety concerns that Li-ion have. However, Ballistic does use "strong but vague" wording regarding overcharging.

http://www.ballisticparts.com/batteryInstruct.php

Charging:
The best method for charging your EVO battery is to use the Ballistic Advanced Charger. You can also use a conventional automotive or motorcycle based charger to recharge or maintain your EVO Battery. When using a conventional charger or trickle charge please check the following:
The charger should have an automatic cut-off at 14.4V to prevent over charging.
If you are using an automatic charger, be sure it does not have an automatic “desulfication” mode. This is a lead- acid specific function that can damage the EVO cells.
Some conventional automatic chargers have charging parameters based around lead-acid voltage specifications which are lower than EVO voltage specifications. If your automatic charger shuts off at 12.8 volts then it will never fully charge a EVO battery with a minimum charged voltage of 13.2v.
Do not charge a Ballistic battery over 14.4 volts. Over charging a LiFePO4 battery can have dramatic results.

[Brian]

Lithium ion batteries and lithium iron phospate (LFP) batteries both need to have a current limiting charger. The charge current needs to be limited by the charger to 1 X C, where C is the amp-hour capacity, and the charger needs to strictly regulate voltage at the same time. As the battery charges, it will first be current limited and voltage limited up to to a certain state of charge, at which point it will be voltage limited and the charge current drawn will drop as the saturation charge is accomplished. The problem is that most LI and LFP batteries that we will use are in the 5 - 20 amp-hour range, and the alternator is in the 20 - 45 amp range, with no ability to limit current. The only current limiting is in the nature of the battery to self-limit as it's cell voltage rises to near the charge voltage. If it's cell voltage is low, it will accept a fatally high current level. I think that is what happened here.

So, from my understanding of these things, if your alternator is an "old school" voltage regulator model it's very possibly not well suited to use with a Li or LFP battery unless your battery happens to fall inside the alternator's peak charge rate. I don't see why alternator regulators that can limit current can't be built, but they would not be of the same configuration as a normal voltage regulator, which simply toggles the field coil on and off to control output voltage and totally ignores output current. If you are diligent about never starting the engine with the Li or LFP battery at less than say 90% state of charge (being extra careful when using a jump battery, for example), then the alternator might be OK since it's output current wouldn't be that high. You have to remember that these days the alternator is mainly there to run the on-board electronics of what-ever vehicle the engine came in, and battery charging is almost a secondary task. Much of the current capacity of the alternator runs the radio, the heated seats (grip warmers on a bike), the 300 watts of headlights, the glow plugs in a diesel truck take 200 plus amps during warm-up, etc. Plus normal alternator voltage regulation is not accurate enough, or probably even set to, the voltage required by an Li or LFP battery. If it is, it's luck, not design...

My take on this, anyway.

Edit - AGM batteries can accept very high charge rates and charge very quickly. They also hold a charge for a very long time and work well at cold temperatures. If I was running a car with a total loss electrical system I would probably choose Li or LFP. If I was running a high current draw car with a high current alternator (EFI. high pressure fuel pumps, computers) I would probably run an AGM battery. If I was high-bucks, I'd probably separate the battery charging requirement from the car supply requirement and run the LFP battery.

Brian

[David Locke]

Hi,
I bought a Lithium battery (to save weight) and got it in my car. It has been awhile since I started the car so I had to crank the car for awhile until it started. The battery turned the motor over quite well.
Once the car was running I noticed a little smoke by the voltage regulator and it started getting worse, then a small fire started where the plug between the wires from the side cover to the voltage regulator is located which I put out. The wires on the VR side of the plug had melted the covering and were bare. The wires on the engine cover side of the plug were discolored. The plug from the VR to the wires that lead to the battery looked ok.
I did talk to George Dean and he said when I was cranking the motor I probably drained the battery down and that the Lithium batteries demand a lot of energy back to recharge and thus there is a lot of current going thru the wires. He said the plugs have more resistance than the rest of the wire so they get hot and thus the problem. He suggested I just cut out the plugs and solder the wires together (for both sets of plugs). When I change the motor, I'll have to cut those wires which is a bit of a pain but ok.
Was just wondering if anyone has some advice on this situation. I'm going to try what George had suggested and then check to see how the wires feel. I just don't want to get into a situation where I start burning wires again of course!
Any suggestions or experience with this using the Lithium batteries? Thank you.
James

This may shed some light on my experience this past summer. Just before the Sunday race at the June Sprints, my engine builder noticed that the insulation had melted on the wires near my '08 GSXR voltage regulator. He had a larger Hayabusa regulator that I put on, and so far I haven't noticed a problem with its wires. I use a Ballistic LiFePO4 battery, and before the first start each day I crank the engine with the ignition off until I see some oil pressure in the dash. (The engine doesn't require cranking under ignition-on conditions, and I don't use a booster battery since the engine starts easily.)

[Chris Livengood]

I actually use a 1970's ford F150 regulator to charge my battery. It's a modern regulator inside an old appearing case. Voltage stays extremely constant at 14.2V. My alternator is excited field though so I have to be around 4k RPM to produce voltage. I disassembled the regulator housing and removed the circuit board then made my own case. That reduced the size by about 80%, but this was on a motorcycle where space was an extreme concern.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Keep in mind that the batteries used for race cars are LiFePO4 and not the common Li-ion. I don't know whether LiFEPO4 have the safety concerns that Li-ion have. However, Ballistic does use "strong but vague" wording regarding overcharging.

http://www.ballisticparts.com/batteryInstruct.php

Antigravity cells don't make use cell balancing, whereas the ballistic packs do, which makes think that either the Antigravity batteries have onboard cell management or are of a different configuration all together. I am also curious as to why the voltage warning is so low for Ballistic packs. My only guess is cycling at higher voltages reduces pack life, though I suppose they may make use of an uncommon low voltage cells.

[James Michael]

This may shed some light on my experience this past summer. Just before the Sunday race at the June Sprints, my engine builder noticed that the insulation had melted on the wires near my '08 GSXR voltage regulator. He had a larger Hayabusa regulator that I put on, and so far I haven't noticed a problem with its wires. I use a Ballistic LiFePO4 battery, and before the first start each day I crank the engine with the ignition off until I see some oil pressure in the dash. (The engine doesn't require cranking under ignition-on conditions, and I don't use a booster battery since the engine starts easily.)

So what happened after that David - did you get a new regulator or just was more careful with time cranking the motor? Do you think it was the battery or VR or some combination? Thank you.

[David Locke]

So what happened after that David - did you get a new regulator or just was more careful with time cranking the motor? Do you think it was the battery or VR or some combination? Thank you.

I just kept the larger Hayabusa regulator that my engine builder gave me, and the wires on it look fine so far. I haven't changed the way I do things, and I don't know what caused the insulation on the wires to melt. I had never considered that it might be the type of battery I have until I saw your post.

[James Michael]

Ok, thanks for the reply. I did look at the antigravity website and some good information there:

http://antigravitybatteries.com/faq/

Also reading the ballisticparts.com website, under faq about whether the batteries work with a stock charging system, they say the batteries work with all modern charging systems.

http://www.ballisticparts.com/faq.php


James