No negative comments from me, the reality is it looks like a good majority of the FV community does not want changes so trying to do so may bring some drivers in but will likely drive more away unfortunately.Originally Posted by Johan W
No negative comments from me, the reality is it looks like a good majority of the FV community does not want changes so trying to do so may bring some drivers in but will likely drive more away unfortunately.
Steve Bamford
That's the point exactly...make people aware of the formula whether it's a hybrid or aircool by displaying the car at a mall with brochures or details on business cards to take home and to do some internet research. As you say NOBODY knows of the f1200 class. Maybe have one vee with and another without body. Don't show too much detail...just minimal as I mentioned with silent display where people can look without anybody approaching them.
You can have a good amount of spectators, you just need to get the cars to run different events then Club weekends. You need to get mixed up with some Pro weekends as support races. Cost is usually slightly more for entrance fees & you need someone to organize this which there is a risk depending on number of cars that show up. Ask the Canadian FF group that run as part of the F1 event in Montreal each year, also a Pro weekend at Mosport last year with thousands of fans there & the Toronto Indy weekend as well.
It can be done, you just need to think different on the events then you currently do now.
Steve Bamford
What to do
I think someone needs to build a two seat 1200/Vee like Indy Car....Anyone that was a prospect...a ride would seal the deal..
I very much doubt any promoter would have Vees/F1200s as a support race at any Pro-Event,I certainly wouldnt,with oil spills,smoking engines,etc,etc it just isnt apealling at that level for spectators or organisers,it would be a bit of a joke really.
The "joke" has already been perpetrated - See Mid Ohio:...it would be a bit of a joke really.
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61178
I think it is a great way to produce large FV fields. Thanks to the efforts of Stevan and Brian. Two more all V events, Barber and Road Atlanta ARRC have been held. Personally, I think this has as much potential as anything mentioned previously.
We could call it a Porsche 550.
We have to give ourselves more credit than this. Vee racing is an great to watch. Very few series (road racing) can produce the wheel to wheel action we do..It is a great way to get noticed.
BTW, if you pay the $$$ most organizers would be more than happy to have you race, even if it is before anyone gets to the track.
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
What do we do...
G.B. But it wouldn't be tandem
Rolling Stoned... Pro Vee was a support race for Petit LeMan.. at Mosport..just ask Derm or Des..
Go to deepthrottle.com ALMS photos mosport 1999 and he walked away
For report.
http://www.deepthrottle.com/Photo/mo...photo_47.shtml
I think this link will help explain what you mean.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 11.23.14 at 10:02 PM.
Steve Bamford
Really? Do you know this as a fact or is this just your opinion?
Many vintage races are held during Pro events which are as bad or worse then som FV's.
At the event at Mid Ohio this past year many racers from FF, FC & FA went to watch the FV's race due to the close racing. Watching 5 - 8 cars run nose to tail is much more exciting to watch then see a 1 or 2 car race at higher levels, at least that is my opinion.
To run any of those events you need to have a promoter, right now other then the Northeast group you are simply following events put on by Club racing. If you want to run where you will have spectators you need to change that model.
Steve Bamford
Back in the day...
When the FV race was starting, the other competitors dropped what they were doing to watch THAT race. It was universal.
Regarding the above picture, there is a lesson for quite a few car owners:
The pan sheared off, the fuel cell fell out, the fire extinguisher fell out! Lucky his legs and feet did not fall through as well (very lucky).
Don't let this be you.
Derms car
I was crewing for Derm that weekend, and the photo does not show how twisted the car really was...
Off topic but would like to show how lucky this driver was at Calabogie a few months ago. Bill Vallis built the Vee...excellent design protected the driver. Engine, gearbox separated also front suspension.
Let's get back to the reason for this thread & figure out how to get more drivers racing FV.
Steve Bamford
Agree...this is how we raced in the eighties without Hans devices etc. We can surely fly again...lol. (De Meilon at Kyalami 1980).
Advertising and more advertising ......
See the silent display that got the attention of many at Buffalo airport. It caught my attention....
It looks interesting, but I can't quite figure out exactly what it is ... I see a TIRE at an angle in there and maybe some side panel .. is it a Kart of some sort? Also can't read the sign - too fuzzy although I can make out what I think is a checkered flag. Maybe someone with better eyes .. or a bigger screen?
Is it, maybe a TRANSFORMER ?
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
I know Fv/F1200 is exciting as hell to watch,good close racing,but getting a promoter for the class THEN trying to sell it to the pro boys as a support race....good luck.Vintage racing cars ATTRACT crowds,we all love to see them thats a different subject altogether.All sorts of folks know Jaguars,MGs,Lotus etc,etc.....they certainly dont know Vees...big sell for a promotor to convince Vees as a support race for a pro w/end,not impossible tho I guess.
FF/F1600 is only one step up from FV/F1200 yet it ran as a support race in the two of largest weekends of the year in Canada, being the Formula 1 in Montreal & the Toronto Indy weekend here in Toronto.
There are plenty of Pro races here at Mosport that you could be part of where there are lots of spectators & at plenty of US tracks you could do the same.
Don't say it couldn't or can't be done, others have proven it can happen.
The real issue the way I see it is that FV/F1200 people have to commit to coming out on set weekends & have a decent car count. There are a few die hards that will make it out but you need to get others to commit to come together & actually show up.
Last edited by Steve Bamford; 11.24.14 at 11:43 AM.
Steve Bamford
I agree, and think the targeted weekend is the ticket. We need FV races to have a "show" that potential drivers find interesting. Getting the potential drivers to events is the second half of the equation...The real issue the way I see it is that FV/F1200 people have to commit to coming out on set weekends & have a decent car count.
To make this work, everyone has to be on the same page. We have a great series, that is amazing to be part of, and great to watch. We cannot sit back and think that no one wants us around. To that point we have to make ourselves visible, and not be scared to try something new, or try something again. Just look at what the Ontario Formula Fords (F1600) have been able to do in a couple of years. Go to their Apex Speed Forum, they will have a TSN/ESPN coverage this week from a couple of races at Mosport, to the Toronto Indy. 3 years ago, they had less cars out that the FV/F1200.
We have to stop expecting that we arrive at the track, and we will have our own grid. If we are not willing to fight for it, nothing will change, but working together, getting the car counts up, supporting the series..anything is possible.
Last edited by nbrigido; 11.24.14 at 9:57 PM.
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
When Formula Ford were down on car counts that always had there own track time.
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
There was threat of losing the individual track time & being mixed with the Libre cars. Lots of work went into keeping the single run group working with the CASC to show plans on how F1600 were working on growing the car counts.
Both classes were warned, not just F1600...it just happens that F1600 actually did something about it.
One option F1200 has is to offer to pay for the empty spots per event via money in the FTDA reserves. That shows you are dedicated to doing something.
Steve Bamford
The F1600 Drivers Association was under a lot of pressure, and were prepared to pay for additional entries should it come to that. Although financial pressure is part of it, most of the pressure is coming from other race groups, who like in SCCA, may have 40-50 cars, from many classes, sharing the track as one race group. When they see a very small group, they understandably feel disenfranchised.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Steve,
What was the entry fee when F1600 supported the F1 and Indy races and how much track time did the get?
Guy.
The reason I mentioned F1 & Indy weekends were because Frank said it couldn't be done. I suggested other Pro weekends for FV/F1200.
Costs are double approx to a regular weekend & track time is less with only 3 or 4 sessions at the F1 & Indy.
I know some will say this is crazy however year over year these are the best attended weekends of the year for car counts so obviously it is worth it for many. Have a look at the entry lists if you don't believe me.
I have had more friends/family show up at these events then any other event which can also help make the weekends something to remember verses a normal weekend.
The Pro races I was originally talking about as mentioned in my quote was Pro weekends at Mosport. Costs for those if I recall were only a hundred or so more dollars per weekend & track time was pretty equal to a typical club weekend. Why not work on those first?
If you want FV/F1200 to have their own run groups & succeed for the future drivers need to pool together & commit to attend designated events, not just pick & choose a weekend here or there. Not sure how people don't see that already.
Steve Bamford
Steve,
Thank you for the explanation. Whilst I would love to run at Montreal or Toronto, I am not sure those particular pro-races are right for F1200. F1200 is all about cheap and those entries are very high and the limited track time does not give novices much of a chance to learn the track.
That said, I do agree the general point you are making.
Guy.
We had over 30 Vee's at Mid-Ohio this past 4th of July due to the efforts of Brian McCarthey, Steven Davis and others who worked hard to promote the weekend,
increase our track time and managed to give us our own run group. Had there not
been a Majors at The Glen that weekend, we may have had nearly 40 cars so it's possible to get the numbers outside of the Runoff's.
Mark
88' Citation 002'
Ok ,ready for the Flak on this one......
Marquee events, or events that draw alot of spectors would help the class become more visable, especially if the was "class promotion" at one of these events.
Has any FV/F1200 series ever looked for sponsorship? had sponsership? either from a related party with intrest in the series, or not?
With low car counts it would be difficult, but for a marquee event? maybe it could offset some of the entry fee's..
Just a thought..
Noel Brigido
Formula 1200 / FTDA
That was an impressive display of what some hard work will & can do. I believe more events like that will help rather then having 3-4 FV's show up at a regional SCCA weekend.We had over 30 Vee's at Mid-Ohio this past 4th of July due to the efforts of Brian McCarthey, Steven Davis and others who worked hard to promote the weekend,
increase our track time and managed to give us our own run group. Had there not
been a Majors at The Glen that weekend, we may have had nearly 40 cars so it's possible to get the numbers outside of the Runoff's.
Mark
88' Citation 002'
Steve Bamford
They tried this in the past and from what Harry said you have to guarantee x amount of cars and if you don't have them each driver or the club has to cover the cost. When they did the pro weekends not as many people showed because of the increased cost and less track time.
I asked this question 5 years ago and that was the answer I got.
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
Then there is your answer...people need to understand track time will continue to increase in price & there are others who are willing to pay & take your spot (track time) if you are not willing to. You are not going to get more exposure for fans by running club weekends.
Steve Bamford
I don't think its a matter of "will" or "wanting" for a lot of people in F1200 we don't have the sort of money to cover such expenses. Thats why we race F1200. For a lot of us racing the 6 race weekends and a test day here and there is already on the limit of what we are able to spend. To increase the cost of a weekend and get less track time is just not in the cards for an "average racer with an average job"
I don't know what the answer is? I wish I knew! Like I said before I tried promoting the club for three years. Hauling my car to the track setting up flags and banners etc... and all it did was cost me money. With no result. Even when the F1200 club had booth at the Canadian Motorsport Expo my dad and I manned the booth every year for a day and there was little to no interest from the public.
One thing I can tell you is if we are forced to race with libre we are going to fall from the waistside. I for one will not be racing with libre. I already almost got hit once in a practice session.
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
So why not have 5 good races a year for F1200 instead of the 6 if the cost is getting too much for 6 races? 5 races of full grids is better then 6 races of part grids.
I agree some will drop out if mixed with Libre, but if that is your only option what else will you do?
Steve Bamford
We have a pending sale on our Blackhole so if a few more things fall in place we will be buying a "B" class formula Ford and have it prepared for the 2016 season.
Kapelke Tuned
RF93 Van Diemen FF1600
Congratulations if you move to FF for 2016. I don't mean to take any wind out of your sail on that as I do think you will have a great time in FF however your costs will really start to increase so just make sure you budget more for that. The only reason I say that is because you have mentioned costs many times as an issue for F1200. That would be my only area of concern.
Steve Bamford
After more than 50 years of FV and a lot of thinking about what can you do to improve participation there seems to be only one thing that really works. That is have fun at the races and bring your friends and family. Most of the new racers I know of are people whose family or friends were already racing and they came out ,had a good time, and eventually became a participant. These people far outnumber those that come from seeing a support race at a pro event, or saw a car on display at a car show. Want more participation, Invite your friends to come along and crew or just hang out. Have more children. We seem to have lots of new drivers whose parents were or still are drivers.
Have better events with more competition. If track time is all you care about you would never go to a runoffs. Always great racing and lousy track time yet Vee guys seem to love it.
Butch
butch deer
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