Steering racks?

[problemchild]

If people WANT steering racks then argue for them, but making up reasons that have no rationale, is not adding credibility to either side of any argument.

The same can be said of comparing car costs (or steering rack costs) in South America. The best FV car there is sold new for R100,000. Well, one 1.0 Rand is worth worth .091 US dollar (Insert your own Mike Rand joke here). Obviously, the South African currency is very week according to the US dollar and buying goods from there is not representative of value when comparing their "off shore" cost to US manufactured goods. Their $10K cars would cost $30+K if built here. One needs to consider what the cost of steering boxes or other FV parts would cost if imported from there. Perhaps, as an alternative to buying Chinese, some of the FV part supply solutions could from countries with very weak currencies.

[Rolling Stone]

Then they should move the steering box to a location like the Womer or RTJ which will provide more foot room than the rack mentioned, without bastardizing cars.

And where is the box in a Womer/RTJ,if I remember correctly in Kevin Deeveys Womer its above his ankles/feet..correct me if im wrong.

[SStadel]

All this talk about racks........ I see a trip to the Tilted Kilt in my near future.

[Bill Bonow]

Steve,

Refer to my post # 56

[Rolling Stone]

Looking at that picture it's clear not having a steering box in there would not have prevented much of anything, something would have injured his ankles and perhaps the steering box may have stopped the Armco from severing off his ankles.

That alone is not good data to base safty on 2 accidents with no way to know for sure a rack would have prevent a injury. Only thing it does is scare
People into thinking they will loose there feet now.

And as far as foot box room Greg is 100% correct in my Womer Bigfoot could easily work the pedals.

Where is the steering box/assembly etc located in your Womer,is it above your feet/ankles/legs or nowhere near them?

[Jeremy Soule]

Greg...It's not only the space but it adds to safety. Leon Guisti ended his racing career after many years when he flipped his vee into the Armco barriers at Kyalami. The steering box crunched his ankle. This was still in the air cool era. Due to this(maybe freak accident we thought and many argued) we started to look at steering racks. Years later and many heated arguments we as committee decided to go ahead after we had a similar accident at the Durban Classic Street race.

Allow them racers to change as this is a safer, uncluttered and more relevant option with no added speed or performance as per my experience.

Johan, thanks for sharing this photo and telling how the class is evolving there. No one had considered the safety aspects of the installation to this point(on this thread).

[problemchild]

And where is the box in a Womer/RTJ,if I remember correctly in Kevin Deeveys Womer its above his ankles/feet..correct me if im wrong.

Exactly the point Frank. People are taking guesses about what is the least obtrusive place to position the steering components. If I was writing the safety report from the car in that picture, I would be focusing on the integrity of the chassis. Whether with a steering box or a 2" x 15" rigid rack, neither of these items are going to be friendly to the human body if the chassis folds up like an accordion.

There are many ways to fix problems. On my Shirley MacLane FV, I ran a chain from the top of the steering box to the chassis which prevented the steering linkage from rotating down onto my feet in a front end impact. The linkage could go side to side or up, but not down. $1 worth of chain.

There were batches of TRW steering boxes in the past that would just push the bottom bearing out the bottom of the housing when adjusted. People started buying rebuilt ones instead. Others, bought up some of those "faulty" boxes and found a fix, giving themselves a lifetime supply. Surely, a person who can build FV intake manifolds could figure out how to take a steering box apart and fix it with set screws or tacks of weld. He is choosing the rack option instead. It is far from being a safety item, accessibility item, or necessity, in this case any way, as the chosen rack has the steering linkage in the same spot as a steering box.

[Johan W]

fvracer27 is totally right, box or no box, I'm not seeing how someone couldn't come out of that wreck without some bad ankle injury's.

Could a steering rack have made his injury's worse? Try and figure out where the rack would end up in that picture? Racks are not bending like mild steel, so I'm guessing it's coming down on his shins or knees also.

This is a photo of the car after I towed it to my house. He would've sustained injuries...probably broken ankles but not crushed to pulp. The rack as per MSA would've pushed upward and they had their explanations that's difficult to explain.

I was the second driver to stop at the scene to help. It took them a while to get Leon out and into the helicopter. The steering box (bolts)had to be cut to get it off his shins and ankles and from the top beam in order to get him out. The box lay on the bottom in front of the beam. They had to bend the front forward as the left wheel were against the body where you can see the last part of his name (..on for Leon). This happened in the official practice on Saturday morning.

MSA deemed the box to be the culprit after impounding the car. Unfortunately I don't have photos of the second vee and or the reports they've sent to our association.

[G.B.]

Do you have any photos of the car prior to the accident?

What were circumstances of the accident, what did he hit and at what speed?
Normally in that type of accident the beam bends absorbing much of the impact. What’s interesting in this photo; the beam almost appears to be still straight, and the chassis behind it has collapsed. So with the beam with steering box attached, pushed back as unit into the driver’s compartment, I can see it would administer the coup de grâce.

Nevertheless, how can we possibly tell if the driver would have fared any better with steering rack fitted?

Is difficult to see, but what size and wall thickness is the frame rail?

Incidentally, are the race car and trailer tires the same?

[Johan W]

If people WANT steering racks then argue for them, but making up reasons that have no rationale, is not adding credibility to either side of any argument.

The same can be said of comparing car costs (or steering rack costs) in South America. The best FV car there is sold new for R100,000. Well, one 1.0 Rand is worth worth .091 US dollar (Insert your own Mike Rand joke here). Obviously, the South African currency is very week according to the US dollar and buying goods from there is not representative of value when comparing their "off shore" cost to US manufactured goods. Their $10K cars would cost $30+K if built here. One needs to consider what the cost of steering boxes or other FV parts would cost if imported from there. Perhaps, as an alternative to buying Chinese, some of the FV part supply solutions could from countries with very weak currencies.

Yes the math speaks for itself. By comparison the vee should be:........

New Hyundai Accent from R 192 900(http://www.autodealer.co.za/new-cars/Hyundai) with a new Vee at R100 000(New parts and engine except gearbox and front beam)
New Hyundai Accent from $ 13 899 in Canada (http://www.hyundaicanada.com/Pages/b...p1_models.aspx)

If you do the math the new vee should be $ 7205.29 and not close to $ 30 000.

Therefore the advantage is as clear as mud(for some) to import as we do import many part from China, Germany etc.

Greg I'm not trying to make the one better then the other just wish for bigger fields and want to enjoy the weekends away from home. You should join me racing the 2hr endurance Vee race. There's usually about 50 entries from around the world...that's fun. Bill Noble used to share with me many years ago. After that a driver from the Uk shared my car, Andy...forgot his last name.(His wife is Ann) They pare you up with a local racer(Im still seen as local)

[Mark Filip]

Do you have any photos of the car prior to the accident?

What were circumstances of the accident, what did he hit and at what speed?
Normally in that type of accident the beam bends absorbing much of the impact. What’s interesting in this photo; the beam almost appears to be still straight, and the chassis behind it has collapsed. So with the beam with steering box attached, pushed back as unit into the driver’s compartment, I can see it would administer the coup de grâce.

Nevertheless, how can we possibly tell if the driver would have fared any better with steering rack fitted?

Is difficult to see, but what size and wall thickness is the frame rail?

Incidentally, are the race car and trailer tires the same?

Exactly

It's like saying "the gun killed those people"

[problemchild]

Yes the math speaks for itself. By comparison the vee should be:........

New Hyundai Accent from R 192 900(http://www.autodealer.co.za/new-cars/Hyundai) with a new Vee at R100 000(New parts and engine except gearbox and front beam)
New Hyundai Accent from $ 13 899 in Canada (http://www.hyundaicanada.com/Pages/b...p1_models.aspx)

If you do the math the new vee should be $ 7205.29 and not close to $ 30 000.

Therefore the advantage is as clear as mud(for some) to import as we do import many part from China, Germany etc.

Greg I'm not trying to make the one better then the other just wish for bigger fields and want to enjoy the weekends away from home. You should join me racing the 2hr endurance Vee race. There's usually about 50 entries from around the world...that's fun. Bill Noble used to share with me many years ago. After that a driver from the Uk shared my car, Andy...forgot his last name.(His wife is Ann) They pare you up with a local racer(Im still seen as local)

You have done one F1200 race and have little respect for our rules and history. The F1200 group is in a very sensitive transition phase right now and needs stability as a new group of people join the fun.

I started the F1200 drivers Association in 1985, I suggested the name F1200. The fundamental philosophy has always been to follow the US standards and keep our cars fully interchangeable with the bigger market to the south. I don't think the South African market is at all similar. Certainly, the US dollar-SA rand disparity makes value comparisons irrelevant. If you want to help, start importing current FV parts to Canada and the USA at crazy prices. Promoting radical reform in SCCA is useless considering the rate of change in American FV. Promoting radical reform in Ontario F1200 could kill it. Please respect that.

FWIW, I will fully support steering rack use on F1200 cars if and when they are adopted for use in SCCA.

[Johan W]

Do you have any photos of the car prior to the accident?

What were circumstances of the accident, what did he hit and at what speed?
Normally in that type of accident the beam bends absorbing much of the impact. What’s interesting in this photo; the beam almost appears to be still straight, and the chassis behind it has collapsed. So with the beam with steering box attached, pushed back as unit into the driver’s compartment, I can see it would administer the coup de grâce.

Nevertheless, how can we possibly tell if the driver would have fared any better with steering rack fitted?

Is difficult to see, but what size and wall thickness is the frame rail?

Incidentally, are the race car and trailer tires the same?

Easier to answer your last question first...yes the tyres are the same due to the Michelin sponsorship and tyres lasting longer then a season...we had them on our tow cars, trailers and race cars. We received a set per season.

Difficult to say if he would've fared any better. However according to MSA the rack would've pushed upward due to the rod position. See the photo earlier in this discussion from a FST member showing the angles and position.

But if you saw the car just after the crash it was clear that he would've sustained injuries. Kyalami in their wisdom(stupidity) decided to put sharks teeth(rumble strips) on the curbing that most cars used to get faster through the corner. Most of the Vees were too low as you can see on many photos. Leon's car caught the teeth and flipped at speed (guess 90kph) into the armco. Bruce Robinson was just behind him with me 30 meters behind them. We both stopped to help.

Not sure about the wall thickness. To me there's absolutely no advantage in speed and performance. Had a box in my vee up to a few years ago and then changed to rack. Out of the fourteen I've built in my workshop in Welkom(will send you photos of all the frames stacked up in a corner) only five had racks. Now all Vees have racks to keep in step with development and relevance.

Relevance also if a dealership would put a Vee for sale or show on their showroom floor showing that the Volkswagen you buy have a similar engine etc. There's still dealers that keep them for show etc. For many years I had a vee on the local dealers floor as advertisement/raffle. For a small town of 23000 people we had 22 vees within 10km radius. The local dealer would have a monthly raffle and draw to win a few laps at Goldfields Raceway.

[Johan W]

You have done one F1200 race and have little respect for our rules and history. The F1200 group is in a very sensitive transition phase right now and needs stability as a new group of people join the fun.

I started the F1200 drivers Association in 1985, I suggested the name F1200. The fundamental philosophy has always been to follow the US standards and keep our cars fully interchangeable with the bigger market to the south. I don't think the South African market is at all similar. Certainly, the US dollar-SA rand disparity makes value comparisons irrelevant. If you want to help, start importing current FV parts to Canada and the USA at crazy prices. Promoting radical reform is useless considering the rate of change in American FV.

FWIW, I will fully support steering rack use on F1200 cars if and when they are adopted for use in SCCA.

Your totally WRONG on your assessment of me: my resume proof the opposite. I joined f1200 for a reason(see no use to change to 1600...it's the same engine) and that's where I would retire. My first race was in a formula Vee 1300(never had 1200's in my time) air cool back in 1976. About 40 races (can go back and count them) My experience in the US...raced Bill Nobles Vee at the 30th anniversary(or one of his vees) as you can see om my FB page. Total of 210 races in SA. Done races in Canada(5)...so more then one Greg.... I'm for cost cutting more then you can imagine.
I won the Air cool champs...that why my yellow Harrier have a nr 1 on the side...previous photos.
Have won it with the water cooled. Can post the proof. Hold the SA record for racing the most races in a single catagory (ie Vee).
Won the Victor Laudorum for motorsport with a Vee....my loyalty to formula vee will remain till the last race I enter. It's NOT about the racing alone....the enjoyment that come with the away from home for me and my wife.

[problemchild]

Your totally WRONG on your assessment of me: my resume proof the opposite. I joined f1200 for a reason(see no use to change to 1600...it's the same engine) and that's where I would retire. My first race was in a formula Vee 1300(never had 1200's in my time) air cool back in 1976. About 40 races (can go back and count them) My experience in the US...raced Bill Nobles Vee at the 30th anniversary(or one of his vees) as you can see om my FB page. Total of 210 races in SA. Done races in Canada(5)...so more then one Greg.... I'm for cost cutting more then you can imagine.
I won the Air cool champs...that why my yellow Harrier have a nr 1 on the side...previous photos.
Have won it with the water cooled. Can post the proof. Hold the SA record for racing the most races in a single catagory (ie Vee).
Won the Victor Laudorum for motorsport with a Vee....my loyalty to formula vee will remain till the last race I enter. It's NOT about the racing alone....the enjoyment that come with the away from home for me and my wife.

I had edited my post above to add "Promoting radical reform in SCCA is useless considering the rate of change in American FV. Promoting radical reform in Ontario F1200 could kill it. Please respect that."

I've met you, watched you on the track, and been on track with you. I have read all your posts. I am absolutely terrified about the damage you can do to F1200, which I consider to be in a very fragile state right now. I will do my best to refrain from further comment. Cheers!

[JerryH]

Will get the price by Monday...will also do my best to get the landed price in US/Canada.

This is a decent looking rack (picture in post number 76). Who makes it and how much?

Jerry

[Johan W]

Johan, thanks for sharing this photo and telling how the class is evolving there. No one had considered the safety aspects of the installation to this point(on this thread).

I'm not sure if any outside info is worth the while as per Greg's comment...I have "little respect for our(ie f1200) rules and history". His assessment it totally wrong but everyone have their agenda and opinion that I respect. I was chairman with the transition and can assure you that we all had our doubts and concerns and understand his views.

Had the same with Judo and the integration of two unions into one with all the politics and in fighting. Was chairman in this transition and guided the association into uniformity to qualify by the olympic rules/guidelines.

My thought was to add to the conversation in terms of relevance and cheap progress. I joined f1200 because of the community and the people like Bill Vallis, Jurgen and others. I have no time for politics and arguments and lived my life as fun filled as possible within the guidelines of associations I served and joined.

Thanks for understanding

[Johan W]

Promoting radical reform in Ontario F1200 could kill it. Please respect that."

I've met you, watched you on the track, and been on track with you. I have read all your posts. I am absolutely terrified about the damage you can do to F1200, which I consider to be in a very fragile state right now. I will do my best to refrain from further comment. Cheers!

Greg...I'm not the one that suggested the change at the AGM, I supported the view of Jurgen Kapelke. Our f1200 group need to expand and will eventually grow. That was my biggest point at the AGM. Guy can confirm what I tried to put forward. Remove the stumble blocks...that's what I promote.

I know I'm just adapting/worming myself into the Mysterian trying to do as best I can in a narrow space. The people I've met at Watkins Glen, Mosport and Calabogie makes me want to be there again.

I may not be a winner or poduim chaser anymore but being a coach and silver medalist I can tell you that any sport needs participants on every level to get a winner. Any club/sport need to cherish the beginner to get the group growing...winners will come.

[veefan]

f1200 group? whats that? not sure why it's relevant to the SCCA FV USA class of racing?

Or this post about changing/allowing Steering racks in FV SCCA?

f1200 has made changes...

The FV group in the USA are purests, they are not tolerant to change and want to leave the FV class alone. While I do not agree, or think it might be in the best interest of the long term health of the class, another side of me does have a lot of respect for them.

I've read all the posts in this threads a few times, and although I received a complete raking over the coals from some of my posts ,

I can't find any valid point to change/allow a rack at this point in time based on what has been said/posted.

[Johan W]

f1200 group? whats that? not sure why it's relevant to the SCCA FV USA class of racing?

Or this post about changing/allowing Steering racks in FV SCCA?

f1200 has made changes...

The FV group in the USA are purests, they are not tolerant to change and want to leave the FV class alone. While I do not agree, or think it might be in the best interest of the long term health of the class, another side of me does have a lot of respect for them.

I've read all the posts in this threads a few times, and although I received a complete raking over the coals from some of my posts ,

I can't any valid point to change/allow a rack at this point in time based on what has been said/posted.

The group that Greg started as per his quote earlier is basically the same as SCCA with smaller cost saving differences. We still use the stock manifold and race on radial tyres(Falkens) which are gr8. This is a step in the right/cost direction for me.

The question were asked right in the beginning if we should use racks by Matt, I think. I just mentioned my experience in regards to that and got the cooler box dumped on me. In my experience there's NO advantage in terms of performance or speed nor handling and raced with both extensively.

I'm pro change in terms of approach to get new members. Therefore a long discussion ensued at the AGM. To me the problem is in the fact that it's near impossible to get into formula Vee if you don't know somebody somewhere. Go search on Google and see what you get if you put "Formula Vee".......not knowing they call it f1200 you would make the same mistake as me thinking that formula vee don't exist in Canada. I bought a car from Detroit and eventually got help from Guy .

Further to this tread I'm the first one in line to join in the Can-Am series as suggested. Great to enjoy more tracks and meet more friends....and maybe enemies.

[blackhole]

The group that Greg started as per his quote earlier is basically the same as SCCA with smaller cost saving differences. We still use the stock manifold and race on radial tyres(Falkens) which are gr8. This is a step in the right/cost direction for me.

The question were asked right in the beginning if we should use racks by Matt, I think. I just mentioned my experience in regards to that and got the cooler box dumped on me. In my experience there's NO advantage in terms of performance or speed nor handling and raced with both extensively.

I'm pro change in terms of approach to get new members. Therefore a long discussion ensued at the AGM. To me the problem is in the fact that it's near impossible to get into formula Vee if you don't know somebody somewhere. Go search on Google and see what you get if you put "Formula Vee".......not knowing they call it f1200 you would make the same mistake as me thinking that formula vee don't exist in Canada. I bought a car from Detroit and eventually got help from Guy .

Further to this tread I'm the first one in line to join in the Can-Am series as suggested. Great to enjoy more tracks and meet more friends....and maybe enemies.

Just to clarify we don't use stock manifolds we just arent allowed to make the bends as "big" as the scca allows. They are still far from stock. And when we make them we don't plaster $1000 plus price tags on them.

[Johan W]

Just to clarify we don't use stock manifolds we just arent allowed to make the bends as "big" as the scca allows. They are still far from stock. And when we make them we don't plaster $1000 plus price tags on them.

Thanks for the clarification...show how much I need friends like you and Bill.

[veefan]

The group that Greg started as per his quote earlier is basically the same as SCCA with smaller cost saving differences. We still use the stock manifold and race on radial tyres(Falkens) which are gr8. This is a step in the right/cost direction for me.

The question were asked right in the beginning if we should use racks by Matt, I think. I just mentioned my experience in regards to that and got the cooler box dumped on me. In my experience there's NO advantage in terms of performance or speed nor handling and raced with both extensively.

I'm pro change in terms of approach to get new members. Therefore a long discussion ensued at the AGM. To me the problem is in the fact that it's near impossible to get into formula Vee if you don't know somebody somewhere. Go search on Google and see what you get if you put "Formula Vee".......not knowing they call it f1200 you would make the same mistake as me thinking that formula vee don't exist in Canada. I bought a car from Detroit and eventually got help from Guy .

Further to this tread I'm the first one in line to join in the Can-Am series as suggested. Great to enjoy more tracks and meet more friends....and maybe enemies.

BABBLING,

Why should the USA FV change from steering boxes to Racks?

[blackhole]

As much as people are not convinced that we need steering racks. I understand making major changes can be detrimental to our class. I understand and agree with all and everyone's points as to why we shouldn't change this or change that.

I'm not saying the following is the reason we need racks. There is nothing I can say or not say to convince people.

The people involved in FV or F1200 have been trying and thinking about ways to get people that have cars to come out and race for years. Guess what... it isnt working. There are probally a number of reasons. Entry fees, towing costs, don't want too, safety, etc... I dont know?

All that I know is we need to make these cars more attractive to the younger generation. This is the future of our sport. So why not try something small and see how it floats for a couple of years?

I have a few friends that do time attack and race in the CSCS here in Canada. Next to a Pro racing event I have never seen as many people people involved in a racing event. That includes entries, spectators etc... BTW there cars cost 3X what a used vee costs.

Now this has come up a number of times. I asked them why wouldn't they want to race F1200? They said the cars are boring old technology and we can't relate to it. I understand their answer. The only reason I can relate to these cars is because I have a father that kept me submerged in cars and racing since I was born. But people like me are rare and the older generation is only getting older. So let's go after the younger generation.

As I do agree with Greg and Guy and others that rapid change can kill the class. Let's start small. What we have been doing has not been working. So let's try something.

Guy, will you be racing with us next year?

Johan's interest and passion for this class is undeniable maybe his approach may have been a little aggressive as to change. Change is not always a bad thing just look at the Australia FV series. It is booming since the inception of major change. From what Johan has told us The South African Series is booming since the change. Even locally look at F1600 a major change happened and now they have double the entries.

I love racing in this class on or off the track. The people are great! I love VWs. I want to see this class stay alive for another 50 years. At which time I will be 79 years old and having this same conversation with some young little sh** except I will be on the other side of the fence. lol!

So at our AGM a couple of weeks ago the class decided that this is something we can try. Let's be honest it's not going kill the class. Let's see how it works. If it doesnt work or make a difference I will take it off and put the box back on. it will take about 1/2 hour to 45 mins to change on our car.

[veefan]

No improvement in performance or lower costs so why move to a steering rack?

If you're talking about attracting younger, newer drivers... cool fat wheel/tire package, and BIG disk brakes first... the last thing you'd consider is upgrading a steering box to a steering rack since base on this thread your spending money for no advantage????

[Steve Bamford]

Steering racks will attract exactly ZERO new drivers. Don't use that as your lobbying points if you want them. I have never ever been asked by anyone if any of my race cars have streering racks....the question always is "how fast does it go?"

[Michael_Clark]

Kevin,

Steering racks will attract exactly ZERO new drivers. Don't use that as your lobbying points if you want them. I have never ever been asked by anyone if any of my race cars have streering racks....the question always is "how fast does it go?"

However, someone looking at the nose of my Protoform once asked "What is that big wart on the nose of your car for? That's ugly."


And for the record, the steering box and arm on Matt's RTJ is directly over the driver's shins. It's always been a safety concern of mine, hoping he never gets smacked on the front wheels.

[blackhole]

Steering racks will attract exactly ZERO new drivers. Don't use that as your lobbying points if you want them. I have never ever been asked by anyone if any of my race cars have streering racks....the question always is "how fast does it go?"

How do you know??

I have had people question with concern about the steering box.

How come every car on earth has a rack? If boxes were as good as racks how come they invented racks and use them on every car?

I want a rack because it is more direct and better feeling of the car. Which to me is safer. And anyone that says the boxes feel the same as racks. You need to learn how to drive. You are not on the limit of the car to feel the difference.

[Steve Bamford]

How do you know??

I have had people question with concern about the steering box.

How come every car on earth has a rack? If boxes were as good as racks how come they invented racks and use them on every car?

I want a rack because it is more direct and better feeling of the car. Which to me is safer. And anyone that says the boxes feel the same as racks. You need to learn how to drive. You are not on the limit of the car to feel the difference.

You're arguing it will increase participation., or at least that was one of your reasons for wanting them. If it will improve safety conclusiley then I 100% support it. Otherwise leave the F1200 class alone. Change will cost you more drivers then it will add, IMO at least.

[Michael_Clark]

You're arguing it will increase participation., or at least that was one of your reasons for wanting them. If it will improve safety conclusiley then I 100% support it. Otherwise leave the F1200 class alone. Change will cost you more drivers then it will add, IMO at least.

I have to admit, this discussion is beginning to confuse me slightly. Correct me if I am wrong.

Some are FOR steering racks because:

. . . . . of perceived safety issues, at least on their particular chassis.
. . . . . of concern over the lack of availability of quality steering boxes
. . . . . it improves the "feel" of the steering
. . . . . it allows some cars to remove the steering box "bump", and clean-up body lines
. . . . . it uses a technology newer/younger drivers may identify with better

Some are OPPOSED to steering racks because:

. . . . . of concern with unnecessarily changing successful long standing rules and risks splintering the group
. . . . . they feel there are plenty of standard steering boxes available
. . . . . of no perceived performance advantage
. . . . . they feel it adds unnecessary cost

I have two questions. Why is there so much adamant opposition to a part that supposedly offers no performance advantage? Why would drivers leave the class if it was not mandatory, but only an option with no performance advantage?"

If more driver felt better about their cars, would it not have the opposite effect?

With that being said, I agree it would certainly be more desirable if both F1200 and SCCA rules would coincide.

[Johan W]

Otherwise leave the F1200 class alone. Change will cost you more drivers then it will add, IMO at least.[/QUOTE]

Why didn't you raise your hand at the AGM to be the only vote against the test? This contradict your statement above..."leave the class alone". We as a group said yes to the test...no vote on change though. If you have concerns...why didn't you communicate them where the group discussed the test in detail? Guy made the trip and had a lot of positive and sometimes passive-aggressive comments that kept the party alive. Loved the interaction with all the different humor and characters differences.

Or....do you not feel part of the f1200 group anymore? I admit I don't know you but would like to invite you back as a friend and be part of the Vee family. We need all, big and tall...fat like me or skinny as some. We disagree a lot but love the sport.

Notice your numerous contributions on Apex...why not updating our facebook page(https://www.facebook.com/groups/344736898869/) with all your contributions, quotes and knowledge? We need more active participation. Would like to see all the Vee family post pictures of them and their vees...past and present. I challenge you to be the first one to post on our page after this babbling as someone mentioned.

ps. Kevin...I thought it's stock manifolds...now I need the modified one? The search is on.....Jurgen?

[blackhole]

Otherwise leave the F1200 class alone. Change will cost you more drivers then it will add, IMO at least.

Why didn't you raise your hand at the AGM to be the only vote against the test? This contradict your statement above..."leave the class alone". We as a group said yes to the test...no vote on change though. If you have concerns...why didn't you communicate them where the group discussed the test in detail? Guy made the trip and had a lot of positive and sometimes passive-aggressive comments that kept the party alive. Loved the interaction with all the different humor and characters differences.

Or....do you not feel part of the f1200 group anymore? I admit I don't know you but would like to invite you back as a friend and be part of the Vee family. We need all, big and tall...fat like me or skinny as some. We disagree a lot but love the sport.

Notice your numerous contributions on Apex...why not updating our facebook page(https://www.facebook.com/groups/344736898869/) with all your contributions, quotes and knowledge? We need more active participation. Would like to see all the Vee family post pictures of them and their vees...past and present. I challenge you to be the first one to post on our page after this babbling as someone mentioned.

ps. Kevin...I thought it's stock manifolds...now I need the modified one? The search is on.....Jurgen?[/QUOTE]

I tried to PM you but it won't let me. Here is my e-mail Send me a message and we'll talk about your manifold engine etc.... kkapelke1@gmail.com

[karmaboy]

Just responding about the Womer steering box...I took a shot of it last night.
It's a clever design and I really like the response (when its adjusted).
But the box is mounted upside down and directly between my knees. Despite some foam padding and knee pads...I get decent bruises from it. Luckily, never any injuries from the occasional shunts.

[Steve Bamford]

Johan,

Why are you moving away from being able to run the cars in Canada as well as the USA in the SCCA? That makes zero sense to me. Correct me if I am wrong but these cars will not be legal in the SCCA now? What happens with the Can/Am races then?

You have a few people pushing for change in F1200 but many like the status quo. You will lose drivers over time "IMO" as I stated before. Hopefully I am wrong. What's next? A different engine package as well?

Hard to raise my hand at the AGM when I was not there but as long as I pay my dues I am still part of the FTDA correct?

You will attract more drivers by going to karting tracks, offering test days, having arrive & drive teams/programs then you will by changing the rule set. With AVR leaving you lost 3-4 cars on your grid if I recall correctly.

Like I said before, this is my opinion. If, & it is a big if, this can be proven to improve safety conclusively then you have my support.

[Michael_Clark]

Johan,

You have a few people pushing for change in F1200 but many like the status quo.

BamBam / FV1200 guys,

While this has the potential to lead us off topic slightly, for those of us south of the border, what changes are "people pushing for" within the F1200 group?


.

[Steve Bamford]

BamBam / FV1200 guys,

While this has the potential to lead us off topic slightly, for those of us south of the border, what changes are "people pushing for" within the F1200 group?


.

Few, very few have asked for the proposed idea of allowing 1600 engines, disc brakes as well as the above listed topic.

[veefan]

Karmaboy, try a old knee pad, the kind you'd use for H.S. wrestling. They work really well just strap it over the steering box simple fix. The ones sold at hardware stores aren't soft enough. The fire extinguisher also needs a little seat padding. The Womer design makes for a really clean floor in the car, great for a straight leg driving position, if you like driving with your knees bent, you'll still get a little banged up.



https://www.flickr.com/photos/242672...7625275321843/
here is a bunch of Womer pictures

[Rolling Stone]

Fv/F1200 will attract who it attracts,people who want to race,its nothing to do with how the car looks,its a racing car and about as cheap as you can get to start racing and stay or move upwards to another MORE expensive class.Ive had young/old people talk to me at the track,look at the car ask questions,you let them sit in it etc.99% of them are blown away when you tell them its a VW Beetle engine etc,etc,Most people like myself when starting didnt give a thought about boxes/racks/tires and so on,we just drooled in the garage and tinkered with the car got to the race and felt like Senna in our F1 car,took photos,had the family there or not.I eventually found out I wasnt a great race-driver,always at the back but i didnt give a SH###I WAS racing,lots of spectators were wishing it was them,but it was ME....having a box or rack makes no performance advantage so who cares what you use,leave it to the individual,now manifolds and so on are a different matter....dont be so scared to change

[Rolling Stone]

BamBam / FV1200 guys,

While this has the potential to lead us off topic slightly, for those of us south of the border, what changes are "people pushing for" within the F1200 group?


.

1600 engine,disc brakes,steering rack Ummmmmm cheaper custom duties on VW parts,big breasted women holding sponsor flags,and no slick costs keep the falkens,no messing with manifolds,and STRONG Canadian beer Sunday nights

[G.B.]

Yes, I do intend to run in F1200 again, but probably not next year as I am keen to go to the Run-Offs.

I didn’t speak up against Jurgen’s conversion at the recent F1200 meeting (which wasn’t the AGM btw) as I was wrong footed by the claim that VW Steering Boxes are becoming scarce. If that was true then I could see its value and support it. However, as we have now established that Steering Boxes are available, I would prefer that Jurgen and Kevin do not experiment with a steering rack at this time.

I have driven the very FV1600 from which Jurgen took the centre-steering rack and think that it would work very well. But having tasted the sweeter meat, you’ll have a hard time returning to the Steering Box.

In short it is probably better to leave Pandora’s Box closed at this point.


The comment about the ugly lump on a Protoform’s nose is ironic when it placed right next to the very ugly Beam.


Part of the beauty of FV is it simplicity. Even I can fix them. Does the youth of today really want the complexity of modern day cars, ECUs, fault codes, getting stuck in ‘limp-mode’?

Also, Steering Racks (and Disc Brakes) are available in Formula First, but it hasn’t really caught the public’s imagination. I cannot see people flocking to F1200 just because steering racks have been adopted.

Incidentally, NASCAR and many Circle-Track cars use steering boxes.

Guy.