FF Rules

[Roland V. Johnson]

Thank you SOVREN for adopting the modern FFord SCCA engine rules! (NO Honda). That makes FFord engine rules the same for the entire West Coast.

[Al Murray]

CSRG also just approved the use of aluminum cylinder heads on Vintage FF's. Nice to see the west coast vintage groups all on the same page.

AL Murray
SOVREN Racing

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Curious- is there a shortage of iron heads?

[DanW]

Curious- is there a shortage of iron heads?

Yes. The flat unpocketed heads were never sold on any road vehicle here in the US according to Jake Lamont's book.

[Roland V. Johnson]

There are plenty of cast iron heads out there. There are very few GOOD cast iron heads out there. Contrary to popular belief, the aluminium heads do not make more power than the GOOD cast iron heads. There are a lot of good aluminium heads. You can't add metal to the poor cast iron heads to correct for over porting and / or being too thin from over surfacing. If you want to run around 5 - 10 HP down on power to the guy who has a good iron head, then not allowing the modern parts makes sense.

[fitfan]

that good news because i would like to get up north and run there - hopefully next year that is in the cards!

[marchsv]

fitfan you are more than welcome to come up to the great Northwest! Please see our website www.sovren.org for our 2014 events.

[EACIII]

I am against allowing alum heads in Vintage racing as it decresses the value of all the ones I have now and will not be able to unload them.

Ed

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Ed;
I was with you but had no idea that there was a shortage. Roland, if its a tuning thing then that's an engine builder issue. They race all over Europe with iron heads without too much trouble. I had understood that with proper flowing, most heads could be gotten close to each other. If its to be a true vintage class then it should continue under the philosophy of Monoposto rules to keep the cars as close to original as possible. Otherwise we end up with different suspension geometries and all sorts - why not 5 speeds, easily done in a MK box. The fact is that in the day the large variety of cars performed at different levels though with a significant number on a par. In vintage today its more down to the driver than the last 2 bhp in the engine. Lets keep them as original as we can. Need to make sure that changes are necessary through lack of parts and not just to ensure more is spent on getting the last two tenths of a second. Formula F is a good class for that.
My twopenneth.
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[Bob Posner]

The issue is that there is no supply of unprepared iron heads. The aluminum head with today's porting skill makes no more power than an equivalent iron head. An uncut iron head could be made to flow as well and make equal power,but is far more difficult to prepare due to it's hardness as compared to aluminum. If you could find one.They've all been cut beyond the level known today to produce power. Here in the northwest we grid 20 or more vintage ff cars at each event,and although the driver a large element,the lack of a few horsepower will serve to keep an equal driver off the podium.

[Roland V. Johnson]

While I'm not a top line engine builder, I think if you ask anyone of them, they will inform you that you cannot make one of the junk heads make power with a good one. If they could they would be making a ton of money doing that. FF has never been about racing show room stock cars. From the beginning of the class people were learning how to make the cars faster. Changing the bodywork, moving suspension points, wheel base, track,shocks, springs, swaybars,cg , etc was the essence of what the class was about. That's why the spec car people coming up have a hard time. They, and their crew, haven't learned how to engineer the car. Take a look at the magic Merlyn Mk-11 driven by 2 world Champions. It has non-stock inboard rear brakes, done by Jody Scheckter, should they be taken off? A Lotus 51 I have in the shop has suspension pick-ups modified, the gearbox changed, shifter moved, rod ends added, etc. It was also in that configuration when it won the first FFord race in the United States, in the hands of Jules Williams. I aint gonna change it!
P.S you can't have 5 speeds because it's not legal

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Roland
Thanks for the explanation. I am trying to figure out what position makes sense. Its not an issue that has arisen in the North East yet and we also have a vibrant and very competitive vintage/Club FF group.

My first thought is that we have to do what we can to keep the cars running. There are a number of non-OEM engine parts that have been created to replace obsolete parts - Jay Ivey has been a leader in this field.

I also agree that the cars were modified in period and those mods should be OK. However I would comment that some years ago when I was rebuilding a Merlyn 11a, Clive suggested he could make some suspension parts that would widen the track for improved handling as in later Merlyns. I admit to giving this some thought but deciding against as my car had not had that mod in period. Did not seem to affect its performance, it was certainly amongst the quickest Merlyns in the North East.

If indeed there is a shortage of heads, then we have to go the next step. But if its really to get the last ounce of performance and make it easier to get there (I know cast iron is a bitch to grind, ally so much easier), then I am not so certain. I did not make my point well, but maintaining originality as much as possible should be an aim. There are a raft of things that could be done to reduce weight so weight distribution can be better managed, and to improve handling. Is this where vintage racing should go? These are old cars are are raced for the fun of it, not as a professional stepping stone - Mike Rand has that organized.

Its a difficult call. We already allow points to be replaced with electronics which are so much easier to maintain - which I guess is a similar argument. Just was a surprise to hear its a problem now, but there we are. It would be interesting to know how the VSCC philosophy on keeping their really old cars running.
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[Ralph Z.]

What about wheels? Why are we stuck with steel wheels? Lots of good aluminum options out there. I hear that some organizations allow aluminum wheels.

[fitfan]

as a novice to the vintage formula car thing... my perspective is:

it is FF, not F1, not even FB.... does "anyone really care about tweaks to keep the cars running cost effective? isn't the spirit of FF to BE cost effective, if its cost MORE to run them to some "historic criteria"... is that really historic? since historically they would have pursued the less expensive easier solutions?

when did braided steel and AN fittings appear in FF? silicon hoses? electronic points? agm/dry cell batteries? if you can't run aum heads... why can you run AGM batteries? what is the logical difference there?

period correct: is that relevant to the car model, or the "era" if you're running a '68.. but in 71 there was an improvement that all the people that had 68 cars made in 71... wouldn't the '71 modification to the '68 year car be, by definition - period correct? its all still in the era and relevant to the tie the cars competed in.

safety updates are never challenged as period correct (and rightly so). since it is FF, (as apposed to some truly "historically significant" cars. not sure why reliability and maintaince and sourcing components would be issues... obviously there are grey areas and there are black and white areas (EFI honda engines for example, duh...) but a ford head? just because the material?, that offers no performance advantage? wheels material and so on. if tis available, more reliable and or cheaper but is the same "spec" and is not a permeant change? why NOT allow a means to let owners keep the cars running cost effective and reliable?

[Beach Racing Cars]

I can't help myself. There is a performance advantage with an aluminum head. Every racer who switches to an aluminum head gains an advantage over his fellow competitors with iron heads. To say otherwise is simply inaccurate. If my car is at weight, and I convert to an aluminum head, where am I going to add the lead? On the bottom of the car at the yaw axis centerline, of course. Or maybe I just won't add it at all.

I don't recall if the new SOVREN regs have a required weight component, but to negate most of the weight-related performance advantage, the difference in weight between the heads should be added to the rollbar at the height of the head centerline. Of course, that still doesn't address the yaw axis issues, but at least it makes the swap a hassle. Which it should be, when otherwise a simple swipe of a Visa will get you a better performing car.

[gord leach]

Does anyone know if Monoposto has accepted the Alloy Head?

[Andrew Stein]

In 2013 Historic Ford rules, II (C) states "Aluminum heads are not permitted". 2013 Club Ford rules II (A) says the same thing. Monoposto also still sticks with 20 lb. flywheel minimum on uprated engines. I respect they don't want "performance creep" memorialized in the rules but wish longer crank life was a consideration. Perhaps aluminum heads have a better chance than the flywheels because of minimum vehicle weight requirements.

[Robert J. Alder]

It's rumored that Monopsoto is considering "some rules changes" for FF and FV. But no specifics. If anyone knows what's being considered, please shout out.

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Andrew
Go to the Monoposto web site. The FF rules are on there. Under Engine you will see
"Updated SCCA legal crankshafts are permitted"

Heretofore the rules have been adjusted to deal with reliability and obsolete parts issues but not to improve performance in line with the Monoposto philosophy of keeping the cars as close as possible to how they were run "in the day". The Club Ford situation is less clear than the Vintage as Club Fords were brought in only in recent years - it made sense to try to preserve these older cars as well and the turnout indicates that was a good decision.

As I understand Roland's position there is now a dearth of iron heads that prevent engines being built. The performance gain with an ally head is a lucky side benefit but will require all of us to change to aluminum heads to stay competitive, unless we are one of the current lucky ones that have an iron head that develops more horse than the standard put out by the engine builders. I understand there maybe a handful of these super iron heads in the country.
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[Roland V. Johnson]

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[Roland V. Johnson]

Once again, there is no engine performance gain from an aluminium head. There are cast iron heads that make just as much , or more, power. That's the word from Jay Ivey, and he has the dyno sheets to prove it. There are a lot of iron heads that engines can be built with, just a very few that will make great power. Yes the head takes about 19#'s off the top of the engine. If you have a min weight of 1100#'s with driver that is .17% of the weight that you might be able to move down 15", and forward or back within the wheelbase. Looking at most Vintage FFords, there are many more ways to move weight around. Even so, do a double blind test and let me know how many Vintage drivers can tell the difference. I can tell you that will be a very small number. I won't argue about 15# vs 20# flywheels. There should be a small performance gain, but I don't think many drivers will ever notice. I believe that the engine life gain will more than make up for that. Electronic triggers in the distributors do not make more more power than points. They just take less maintenance. If you want more power it's much easier to sneak in that little cheater cam, the larger pistons, and that little more compression, since no one wants to check.

[SEComposites]

I'm in the process of restoring a vintage FF and am trying to be as faithful as practically possible to restore it to its original spec. That means cast iron head, steel wheels, etc etc. These cars do need to be raced, but at the same time they really must be kept as original as possible and in my view aluminum heads absolutely should not be allowed. My car will have original Dunlop steel wheels and the Dunlop/Avon treaded tires too.

[alangbaker]

I won't argue about 15# vs 20# flywheels. There should be a small performance gain, but I don't think many drivers will ever notice. I believe that the engine life gain will more than make up for that.

James Hakewill has what appears to be a pretty good analysis of the benefits of a lightened flywheel (and clutch) on his website:

Flywheel and clutch choices

Basically, compared against a stock flywheel and the heaviest 7.25" racing clutch (a Quartermaster), a fully lightened flywheel with a 5.5" clutch provides the same benefit as an additional 1.3hp over 1000m, or 3hp over 500m. He also notes that the lightened flywheel is most of the benefit and the difference between a 7.25" racing clutch and a 5.5" racing clutch is really not much.

[Roland V. Johnson]

P.S. The way the cars were raced, and the way some people think they were raced are two different stories. We've been changing suspensions chasis configurations and bodywork for 45 years. To be truly Monoposto correct thats the way they were.

[Beach Racing Cars]

Carroll Smith would say that real gains come more often from lots of small improvements rather than one mighty demon tweak. I know racers, really fast guys at the pointy end of the grid, who religiously trim all but two protruding threads off of every bolt in the car in order to put that weight right where they want it. Given the option of taking 20# off the top of the car and putting on the bottom, they absolutely recognize the massive handling gains that represents.

Either race them the way they were or don't. Just understand that this is one more giant step away from fielding a grid of true vintage cars, all based on economics.

BTW, there are plenty of good iron heads out there now that aluminum has been made legal, and they're cheap! Why not let everyone from Club Ford up race the aluminium heads and keep Monoposto out of it?

[Rick Kirchner]

Economics is why's keeping us from having fields of any size in any open wheel class.

IMHO, "originality" is what people have been using to keep car counts low (wouldn't want to let the riffraff in) and resale high.

I always find it interesting when vintage guys talk about the need to win. The last winning car in whatever age group you are running in becomes the chassis to have. this sport has always been pretty brutal in weeding out the bad stuff.

Most "vintage guys" need the AL head weight loss just to get close to minimums anyway.

The vintage purists will find themselves with ever decreasing car counts (cars DO get written off) and the high dollar versions remaining will get raced less and less hard by an aging population (still spouting the need to win). Unobtanium parts will continue to get more costly to find and grids will continue to shrink.

Grow or die....

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Rick:
I am confused. Roland is saying that in California you can run pretty much anything that vaguely resembles a pre-72 FF in Vintage. Does not that negate your argument that the vintage guys are elitists that are trying to keep poor folk out?

I actually do not agree with Roland but respect his opinion. There are vintage classes throughout the world that manage to stick to the spirit. The FIA has a careful policy of ensuring cars are built as in the day. You don't put a BDA in a Lotus 23. If you have the good fortune to own a Lotus 25 you don't put wide wheels on it. There does not seem to be much of a problem in keeping cars going right back to Edwardian racers. It a different dynamic. We have Club Ford for those that want to push the outer limits in old cars - in the UK they created several layers of FF class so there was somewhere to race the" obsolete" cars. Seems to me its a personal preference. If a majority of the runners want to save money by allowing Honda engines into pre-72 cars then I suppose it will happen and I will be in the minority.
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[Robert J. Alder]

Rick:
. . .. If a majority of the runners want to save money by allowing Honda engines into pre-72 cars then I suppose it will happen and I will be in the minority.
BB

Whoa there! Come on. Nobody is talking about FIT motors in vintage FF or CFs. We're just talking about alum heads.

Any vintage organization's decision (and there are more than 20 different outfits) to allow alum heads (on either Vintage and/or Club Ford classes ) will be a club-by-club decision, no doubt be based on what the majority of well-informed FF racers wish to do. This thread is a great discussion of the pros and cons, each deserving consideration. Unfortunately it's not a black and white decision and even different organizations may come to different conclusions based on their member's collective mind-set. Such is life.

Keep this good discussion going. It will help others decide. But any worry about Honda FIT motors is irrelevant.

[Roland V. Johnson]

I think some of us remember that the cars were not always raced as delivered. Others think they should be exactly as they came from the factory, that is not historically correct. Where the line gets drawn is always going to be shaky. All of the early cars came with Cortina engines. You can't get many legally required parts to build those engines. I haven't seen a list of approved aftermarket parts for those engine. Do you let people update to an uprated (not as delivered)? The aluminium head and other modern parts for the engine become more of an emotional issue than an exercise in logic. I firmly believe that we can go just as fast with one of the really great cast iron heads if we just pull the extra ballast out. We just don't have several of them sitting around.

[Bernard Bradpiece]

Robert
I exaggerate to make a point. I recall the mesmerisingly long thread about how the Fit would not take over from the Ford - they would be "equal" to a "good" Ford. Lots of rational discussion. Well how did that work out for you!

The camels nose. There is always good logic and rationale.

If the ally head is required because there are no iron heads available in the US, then so be it. The engine guys will have a great time selling new ally heads to all and sundry. I agree its not cut and dried, but its a different "vintage" racing to the vintage racing I have known since the mid 1950's, and the vintage racing that goes on in Europe today. But we never followed the European path with FFord (which continues to thrive in Europe) so what the heck!

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[Beach Racing Cars]

Well, this is going to get me in a lot of hot water, but it's must me being me. So, apologies in advance.

That said, vintage FF racers are spoiled. For years, they've had a seemingly inexhaustible supply of cheap, quality vintage parts to work with, and now that it's getting tougher, it is characterized as somehow just too difficult and expensive to bear, so the rules have to be changed.

Well, welcome to vintage racing. Finding quality parts for most of our cars has been tough and expensive for a long time! While this is an entertaining thread, there are a lot of things that are being represented as facts that just aren't so. I think the current political term is 'strategic misrepresentation". I've seen the same pathway followed by other grids, and the end result is a quiet, tacit abandonment of virtually all non-visible vintage requirements.

If you're ready for that, have at it.

And come to think of it, we should get rid of those donut drives, too. Has anyone tried to find a set of Mk 8/9 drive axles lately? I have, and have had zero luck at any price. Plus the donuts are dangerous when they come apart, which they do with alarming regularity. And since it dosn't appear to matter that they were the standard of the day, there's no reason to keep using them.

See what I mean?

[SEComposites]

I agree. But lets not stop at FF. Lets allow modern FI motors and paddle shifts into all Historic/Vintage classes while we're at it

[EYERACE]

For Sale: FF Iron head - Farley prep - ready to go - just sitting in the box that he shipped in it to me - never opened. PM offers.

Opened a little while ago. I was thinking it was the one that would breathe very well but had cracked and been welded - apparently not.

I haven't been very active here for some time. A few years ago a nice professionally prepped head ready to go seemed to be worth around a thousand. We can start at that I guess.

[Robert J. Alder]

Our ApexSpeed leader really prefers listings to have a price. What is the price?

[EYERACE]

Just got off the phone - it's sold - simply waiting on the Postman now

Thank you ApexSpeed - it seems only fair, there is to be a contribution coming your way

[Albatross]

The only reason the West Coast clubs are surrendering to the few owners of aluminum head club fords for inclusion with their vintage program is for more $$$$. Sure, always nice to have more entries. But, to sacrifice their vintage or historic FF members for the inclusion of the aluminum monster is just for more money. Folks hang on to your iron head. The clubs back east and those who appreciate your true vintage FF will find your vintage racer much more valuable. Remember the advertisement years ago: "where's the beef" ? Well, with your iron head-you have the beef. Those with the aluminum head are just "Club Fords" with a "V" on the side in masquerade.

And for those of you anticipating a trip to the great NW to run your "Vintage", don't forget to bring your umbrella(s).

[gord leach]

Well, with your iron head-you have the beef.

Those with the aluminum head are just "Club Fords" with a "V" on the side in masquerade.

Couldn't say it better Myself

[Roland V. Johnson]

You guys all have your legal Cortina engines and original air in the tires also I assume?

[gord leach]

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[Bernard Bradpiece]

Come on Roland - this is about the spirit. It an art not a science. The original Cortina wheels pulled the centers out so we went to Dunlops. The Dunlops dried up so we had to go to Weller if we could not find Dunlops - also steel mind!

If this is about the club ford guys wanting to run ally heads, have at it if a majority agree. For the vintage guys the heads should continue to be iron until there are no more left that are repairable. Its not as if the quantity of vintage cars is increasing, there are how many there are and there should be enough heads to go around particularly after the modern guys went ally - and after the club guys go ally if thats what they want.

Maybe the issue is do we want vintage to be another class of continually updated cars to ensure we get the last 1/10th of a second and break lap records, or do we want to have the cars as close to original as we can get - original pickup points, original outboard suspension, Mk 8 boxes, iron blocks etc. As commented previously, if this is about going faster Mike Scanlan has a great series, if there is a genuine shortage of heads, well that's another matter.

As a fogy, I admit to wanting to keep to the spirit.

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