Help identifying FC/F3 car

[deaninkc]

Some time ago I purchased a Formula car that was once raced by Mike Sauce in FC in the early 70's. I bought it from a third party who told me it was a Chevron. Upon research I found it was not a Chevron. I became discouraged and the project has sat for a number of years. I talked to Mike about it and he confirmed that he bought it from a pawn shop or some such thing and did not know the history of the car. I've decided to start working on it again, if nothing else it has some value in being Mike Sauce's first race car. The car is set up for a Ford/Cosworth MAE type engine. It has a Hewland MKIV gearbox. The chassis is similar to a Chevron B9 or Brabham B15. The clutch and brake pedals are modified English Ford units with logo. It has Armstrong single adjustment shocks dated 6/64. The steering arms are different from most cars in that they attach at the top of the upright not in the center. The front brake rotors are unique in the they are flat disks with no hat like a LeGrand, the hat being build into the hub. The rear cross-member that the gearbox mounts to has the name "Rose Machine" stamped on it. Wheels are 13x10 and 13x8 magnesium that look similar to American Racing wheels. Any help identifying the car would be appreciated along with and entry sheets, photos or other info from the early 70's in the SCCA Southwest Division that might include the car.

[Rick Kirchner]

look around for the arch motors frame stamp. sometimes it's on the reinforcing webbing where the roll bar brace bolts in, sometimes it's on the front hoop, just look for a number that starts with AM. you might have to blast the frame to find it.

I'd bet there's somebody in the UK that has the records of manufacturer vs frame numbers.

[marchsv]

Looks like an early Forsgrini made in the Northwest by a couple of Boeing guys. Apex member rvgreg would be the expert on this good luck.

[ianashdown]

Forsgrini Mk10A F/A?

[deaninkc]

Found a few pictures of MK10's and it is really similar except for the uprights and the upper front suspension link on mine having a bearing in a race on the outside rather than a rod end. Maybe it's an earlier version?

[Daryl DeArman]

Kawasaki triple

[ianashdown]

I noticed the Kawasaki too! I've been passively looking for one for a while; would love to have one. I remember when they were first out, they were a wild ride!

Ian

[Denis Downs]

I owned a Winkelmann FF and the suspension and body panels shown are very similar. I know there are several Wink FB's running out there. You may want to check into the Winkelmann Registy and see if they may help.

[deaninkc]

That's my Kawasaki S3 400 I bought new in '74. Still all original. I've got two H1 500's. One is stock and the other is a basket case I bought that I'm turning into a cafe racer. Went to buy garden tiller from a guy down the road and ended having him throw in a Yamaha RD350 and a Cooper/Islo 250 Enduro bike for another $200. The RD350 was surprisingly nice and was missing a tank, seat and exhaust but I have found them all. The Coopers engine is locked up so the jury is still out. Love those 2-strokes.

[rv greg]

For sure not a Forsgrini. Body looks like a Winkleman

[Earley Motorsports]

More Kwaka triple lovers. I have an H1 500 (1971) last drum brake model. I used to road race them back in 72. Crazy old bike, wobble like nothing else.

[Peter Olivola]

My best guess would be a Winkelmann WDF-1 but not a WDB-1 although they were similar in many respects.

[deaninkc]

I'm sure it's not a Winkelmann, body is much different along with the suspension. I looked at Winkelmann when I first started trying to identify several years ago. I've been through all the historic F3 sites. It was raced in the USA before Mike Sauce bought it so I guess I'll try looking through as many SCCA results in the late 60's and early 70's, especially in the Southwest to see if some unusual FC car pops up. I was hoping it was a Forsgrini, It's the closest match I have found so far.

[rv greg]

Here are some pic's of the front suspension.

[rv greg]

Here are some pic's of the front suspension.

[deaninkc]

I can see the differences although there are a lot of similarities. My car looks as though it is a few years older, perhaps around '65. Has anyone ever heard of a Blivit FC car driven by Don Parks. Found some results from Green Valley in '67. He was from Houston and there is a Rose Machine Co in Houston. Does any one have current contact info for Mike Sauce? Tried PM'ing him with no results.

[rv greg]

There is a Mike Sauce on the board at SCCA and he is listed as a member of the Vintage Racing League. http://www.thevrl.com/profile/MikeSauce

[Daryl DeArman]

I can see the differences although there are a lot of similarities. My car looks as though it is a few years older, perhaps around '65. Has anyone ever heard of a Blivit FC car driven by Don Parks. Found some results from Green Valley in '67. He was from Houston and there is a Rose Machine Co in Houston. Does any one have current contact info for Mike Sauce? Tried PM'ing him with no results.

There are 472 Donald Parks living in the USA right now so a l o n g shot....but there is a Dr. Donald Parks who graduated college in 1966. Dr. Donald Parks is currently residing in Houston as the Professor and Director Division of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery at UT Medical School-Houston. Don't know how many Donald Parks in Houston area of that age range but can't be many.

[Offcamber1]

DeTomaso?

Somewhere in my pile of old results of my brother's racing I recall him running his BT38 FB or the Alexis Mk15 he had prior to the Brabham in the same race group at Nelson Ledges against a DeTomaso FB or FC. This was back in the mid 1970s.

I vaguely recall the nose on the car, which was red, looking like that. On the off chance I pegged this right, you have a rare and desirable car with some serious pedegree. If I am wrong, which is more likely, then all bets are off.

I will try to dig around later this week if someone else has not correctly identified the car.


Provamo, you might have been at the same event; does this ring any bells with you?

Ciao,

Kip

Well nuts, I dug around and found a bunch of stuff but not that result sheet.

[deaninkc]

Looking through the Southwest results. The two cars I am not familiar with and can't find history on is a Coopernaught FC car driven by Tom King and the Birkin FC driven by Don Parks. Let me know if anyone is familar with these cars.

[provamo]

agree that the nose has a Winkleman look to it

Winkelmann....................whatever

[sauce_racer]

Give me a call I think I have some info for you on the FC.By the way the gearbox was a Hewland MK5 updated to Mk4-8.
817-860-1985

[preform resources]

I think it is a MONARCH, built by Tom Monarch in Michigan back in the late 60s early 70S the first car was an FC car with a cosworth 105 E engine, not sure about the gearbox , he went on to build 2 FF cars one was sold in Chicago and one was a bare unfinished chassis. I remember those uprights , Tom built the pattern and they were cast at Detroit Magnesium (now history) and I believe they had modified Fiat stub axles, I did the model for the body. The car pictured is the first car and was sold to Art White in Texas, I haven't heard anything since but I acquired the remnants of the third car and sold them several years ago to a fellow who acquired the Chicago car, he was from Washington state. Tom was an excellent fabricator and not a bad driver either !
I have some old pics etc.
Dave Craddock
preres@sbcglobal.net

[rv greg]

http://atspeedimages.com/showcase.ph...f-0019e3f8e432

I belive the owner lives in British Columbia. He has raced Sovren.

[rv greg]

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/oth...00528037ss.htm

[preform resources]

Thanks Greg, yes that is the second car Tom built, looking closer at the pics of the first car I remember those front hubs and the pedals unless they have been changed, came out of Tom's Lotus 18 FJR as a matter of fact that first car was built with a lot of Lotus 19 parts , wheels, uprights etc. we bought all the 19 stuff from Dave Causey in Carmel In. they were parts he didn't use any longer on his 19 with a Ford 289 so Toms first car had all these 19 bits and the famous Lotus "queer box" which was the first sequential unit out at that time, a couple years later he redid the whole car discarding the 19 parts , switching to American racing 13" wheels and a Hewland gearbox.
I'll dig out my old pics and make them into files for anyone interested.
Dave Craddock
preres@sbcglobal.net